EPTMocsta can you summarize your thoughts on Rayn? You find Rayn's approach to Toad odd and you said a bunch of words about how Rayn plays but I don't see any conclusion.
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Mocsta can you summarize your thoughts on Rayn? You find Rayn's approach to Toad odd and you said a bunch of words about how Rayn plays but I don't see any conclusion. | ||
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I'll reread the thread in the morning and post more in depth reads then. | ||
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Reads are coming, it's gonna take me a while. If there's anything you guys want answered while I'm here let me know. | ||
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On February 26 2014 09:55 Mocsta wrote: This is an unusually passive aggressive approach for early game.- And something I throw out as scum all the time. Instead of trying to understand if my read on u is genuine or feigned, u play the psychological game and twist my lack of vote as something scummy. That diversion is it self very scummy. Now suki, were u aware harry potter is not in the game?? This was the focus of my initial case against Mocsta. He somehow felt that my question, 'Why isn't your vote on me' indicated that I thought he was scummy, and furthermore called me scummy for it. I found this very scummy because it indicated a mafia mindset: 1. motive to turn non-scummy things to look scummy 2. very defensive On February 26 2014 10:05 Mocsta wrote: Rayn Do u thibk its plausible for a town wave to infer I am a scum read already? This as well, seemed overly defensive. On February 26 2014 11:14 Mocsta wrote: Im drafting up my issues with Suki so feedback on that would be good when its released. As an aside/observation/muse till then, I havent read in detail the interactions between Geript/Toad/Rayn (as I have been focussed on you + Suki) however I am finding Rayns approach to Toad odd (regardless of alignment). Basically I know Rayn doesnt respect Toads town play. Red Herring or something to keep note of? This strikes me as odd. He seems to be throwing suspicion on Rayn but not taking a stance. On February 26 2014 11:32 suki wrote: Mocsta jelly. Mocsta can you summarize your thoughts on Rayn? You find Rayn's approach to Toad odd and you said a bunch of words about how Rayn plays but I don't see any conclusion. He doesn't elaborate on his thoughts on rayn until his list post where he puts me as second and rayn as #1 scum. This was a wtf moment for me. Let me post the list: On February 26 2014 16:34 Mocsta wrote: Caught up and re-read Current reads: Wave Suki Gumshoe Calvalinho toadesstern ange777 jarjardrinks vivax geript Holyflare thechyz rayn Will expound in a bit. swamped @ work. Why is Gumshoe #3 town? Mocsta, just four hours previous, had voted gumshoe for his 'marketing crap'. And actually let me talk about that. On February 26 2014 11:35 WaveofShadow wrote: So do you find it likely that right out of the gate, scum gumshoe drops a townread on his scumbuddy Mocsta? JJD and Wave start going over gumshoe and finding things odd. On February 26 2014 11:37 Mocsta wrote: hmm I didnt get WoS point about and/or But rereading this from JJD post, I noticed something stick out to me. The stuff in red/blue is the biggest load of marketing crap I have read in this game so far. Mocsta notices 'marketing crap', but doesn't say that it's alignment indicative. On February 26 2014 11:41 WaveofShadow wrote: Hypocrisy doesn't necessarily come from scum, you know that. I do want to hear Mocsta's response though. ##Vote: gumshoe Wave votes gumshoe. On February 26 2014 11:43 JarJarDrinks wrote: No. I'd say that a scum gumshoe likely means moc is town. JJD adds his thoughts on scum gumshoe and says they are unlikely scum team. On February 26 2014 11:54 Mocsta wrote: ##Vote: Gumshoe That last post reminded me a lot of how he talked to Bum in GSL IV as if hes doing us a favour by gracing us with his presence. Mocsta votes gumshoe. This feels really really opportunistic. Mocsta only voted gumshoe after a few people had already posted their suspicions. Notice that he's done the same thing here as he did with rayn. He posted something 'odd' ('crap marketing' for gumshoe, rayn's 'red herring') but doesn't say it was alignment indicative. No one started saying Rayn was scummy, Mocsta didn't elaborate on his read even though I asked him. Wave and JJD start saying gumshoe is scummy. Mocsta votes gumshoe with his marketing crap reasoning. And then four hours later gumshoe is his top 3 town. He has since made a case on TheChyz. He starts defending me as town which rayn already pressured him on. On February 26 2014 22:06 Mocsta wrote: Look with suki, there sa massive change in style between shadow and shadow reboot. Just overall light heartedness. From glancing over the town n scum games; personally i still think she is town; HOWEVER, I also have noticed that after the first 24hrs or so she tends to produce analytical posts. I suggest this will be the best way to get an accurate read on her. Unfortunately its highly possible she will bandwagon Chz (which is relatively legitimate as either alginment) so I am not actually sure how much weight to give that. Let me get this straight. Mocsta thinks I am town. Mocsta thinks TheChyz is scum. He then comments that it is possible I will bandwagon TheChyz, then 'it's pretty un-alignment indicative', then 'I'm not sure how much weight I will put on that'. Which makes no sense if he thinks I'm town because of course I'm going to go on the most scummy looking person, which Mocsta is currently pushing as TheChyz (I think?). Why all those words about me bandwagoning on TheChyz? It sounds like it has a point but it really doesn't. ------- SUMMARY So anyways I think Mocsta's reads make no sense. His evolution of reads on people feels fake and opportunistic. I have no idea what's going on with that list of his. Like, what's the point of posting it? If it's to clarify things to the thread then he's really done the opposite because so many more questions have popped up after. Why is rayn bottom of the scum list? That implies that rayn is most scummy, but why hasn't he pressured rayn at all or made any case on him or anything? Why am I suddenly totes town after being so aggressive at me early game, coming up with a big case that I'm 'neutral' and now you're defending my towniness when people pressure you? Why is gumshoe top 3 townie when you had voted him just four hours prior to your big list? Scummy things: - His opening play: Twisting things to look scummy, self-conscious - Opportunistic voting of gumshoe, 'red herring' case on rayn that ended up going nowhere - not pushing rayn even though he thinks rayn is scummy - Evolution of reads that feels fake Even without the list, I think the same points would stand. The list just makes things all the more obvious. Mocsta is scummy to me. My vote is on him and will stay on him for now. I'll continue looking into other people. | ||
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TheChyz comes in with a town read on Mocsta out of the blue saying 'it's the way you're playing'. He dodges my request for him to share his reads by saying 'I have some hunches', without elaborating. He starts pressuring Mocsta. Makes a bad case on JJD that he quickly gets off of. Says this: On February 26 2014 15:12 TheChyz wrote: You guys can play having 1 scummy thing on someone and immediately call them mafia. I don't. Then votes geript with a pretty awful case. On February 26 2014 16:38 TheChyz wrote: kk. With geript I still have a problem of how he was so quick to say that rayn and toad couldn't be scum together. There was no explanation why he made that conclusion until I finally made him answer with All of these points are terrible. It seems more like he just put out some random statement and after being asked to answer on it it seems like he is backtracking. See how he goes to make several points. Not only does it seem like he is trying to be over defensive but that most of them are just a big pile of poop. Let's go over the points: 1) I don't even know what chummy means but it seems like the way you guys are acting early on. Again that doesn't really say anything and is something anybody can say about almost anything. 2) He is backtracking to a joke rayn made that makes him town? Well shit i think he just solved mafia. People making jokes = town. I don't understand the context but I believe that is irrelevant. 3) I don't even understand this one. Something again that rayn is towny to him. 4) Saying how its unlikely for something to happen which does not seem unlikely at all. In all of these points, NOTHING again answers why he think rayn and toad cannot be scum together. If anything it seems more like he is developing a rayn town read. This all seems like a load of backtracking and most likely hoping that he wouldn't get called out for his words before hand. Apart from that everything else just has no effort to even try and scum hunt. Thought he was kinda scummy but not this scummy until re-reading his filter now. ##Vote geript This case is really bad. Not only does he not explain how geript is scummy for any of his 'points', it seems like a big part of his case is 'I dont understand whats going on'. His entire case is based on geript's comment that rayn and toad cannot be scum together... Like, that's just weak. Thought he was kinda scummy but not this scummy until re-reading his filter now. This conclusion just feels out of place. Like he's trying to explain why he didn't think geript was scummy before but now he does. "Making a story", as it were. TheChyz also seems to be pressuring Mocsta, but I have no idea what TheChyz's opinion of Mocsta is. At the beginning of the game he read Mocsta as town, now he seems to be neutral? Also suki just rubbing me the wrong way with here weird defensiveness and interactions with mocsta. Not sure what but something from reading her filter just doesn't seem right. This is also really flaky. He's saying I look scummy but isn't trying to figure out what looks scummy. He thinks mocsta is suspicious but isn't making a decision. He made a weak case on geript off of one of geript's posts but doesn't seem to be commenting on other things that geript has done. Other people's cases on TheChyz In general I agree with other people's cases on TheChyz. I like JJD's case: On February 26 2014 22:50 JarJarDrinks wrote: Suki reads very town to me. Chyz does actually read very scummy to me after a reread. Few things I don't like: - Like gumshoe, he called you town early when I don't think you were acting townish @ all. - He sheeped geripts case on me and while I think geript legit misread my post, it kinda felt like chyz was being opportunistic - I agree w/ the notion that someone acting scummy does not automatically make that person a scumread. But the way he worded it doesn't sit right. Like "I'm leaning scum" or even "He's null for me" would be a better qualifier for that sentence. I don't think Mocsta's case is that good. Here, TheChyz casually queries Suki indicating that he does not share my read. The question posed will not provide any alignment indicative response either. I don't think TheChyz's question on me indicated that he didn't share Mocsta's read (that I was suspicious). I don't agree with: The important thing to note is that previously TheChyz stated he would only comment if something is wroth commenting on. So why... is he so fixated on someone calling "Rayn/Toad" town. He seems to refuse to accept they can both be town; yet, hasnt given a direct indication of his read on either player. Very scummy. TheChyz hasn't indicated what he thinks of Rayn or Toad's alignment which is weird but not scummy. His case on geript was independent of his read on rayn/toad. This is a guy that is intentionally trying to dodge giving out any insight AND THAT is scummy. I can understand the point that it is trying to dodge giving insight while commenting on gumshoe. I can see it as a townie 'haha i found it funny'. I can see it as a scummy 'lets talk about things but not really'. I see that Mocsta has pinned it as scummy behaviour. In summary: Overall, TheChyz arguments have been weak and offer no insight into his thought process. He is calling out people prematurely (e.g. Holyflare + Rayn/Toad) yet doesnt indicatve whether he reads those players town or scum. He also prematurely calls me town when not under fire for my scumhunting, yet doesnt seem to support my reads. Lastly, he goes out of his way to dodge questions (e.g. to Suki). I find it funny that Mocsta's summary points 1 and 2 can be used to describe his play this game. I don't see how, on its own, Mocsta's points establish that TheChyz's play has been scum motivated. Other people have posted cases but I'm out of time this morning  - - - SUMMARY I think the word to describe TheChyz's play is "weak". There are plenty of contradictions in his words and actions. He seems to have no inclination to scum hunt, but every inclination to throw suspicion on people. I'm leaning towards scummy on him. Scummy things: 1. random defense of mocsta out of nowhere 2. not being transparent with reads, not straight up saying 'this person is scummy' (except geript but that case sucks) 3. not pushing his scum reads. 4. Seemingly not interested in finding scum. I know rayn and some other people brought up cases against TheChyz, and when I read through them in my catch-up I generally agreed with them. There are some points that were brought up that are not in this case that do make TheChyz look scummy. Mocsta being so adamant on TheChyz makes me doubt that both of them are scum together. TheChyz recently has spent effort talking with Mocsta, which, given his weak play, I find unlikely to happen if they were scumbuddies. Also no reason for a hard bus at this point. mmm... I'll have to think about this one. There's still half a day left so plenty of time for both players to contribute. | ||
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I'll be back tonight and spend another few hours in thread. | ||
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Mocsta's defense is that he's a feels player and that people call him out for being inconsistent. I'm not sure how I feel on that. As town, you have reasons for your moves. You had a reason for voting gumshoe and a reason for putting him as townie after. I don't understand how Rayn is on your list of scum and your only reason is 'it's a feel' and you're not trying to point out scummy things about him just because 'he's not a priority'. I want to hear why you think Rayn is scummy. Also why HolyFlare is scummy. Not sure if you elaborated previously but if you can summarize HF that would be good. Again, when I have more time I'll take a closer look. | ||
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On February 27 2014 01:17 Mocsta wrote: Suki, reading your case and then the comments on mine is pretty funny. Theres a reason with Chz you are so unsure of his position.. its because he is intentionally not releasing the information, so *YOU* have to fill the gaps. This is classic scum play. My case highlights this - so i thought. And again, you seem to be completely misinterpreting what I write but meh, you gotta live with these things sometimes. If you want an example of the impact ambiguity can play. Check out Mordanis in GSL Mafia IV. Everyone filled in the gaps for him, and just assumed he didnt know better. Seriously Suki, you played recently with Chz where he was town and you were scum. Do you think there are similarities in play? Agreed with the first point. I want to do a meta analysis but that will have to wait until tonight. TheChyz game was a while ago so I'd have to refresh. Definitely one of the things I'm going to do though. | ||
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I think mocsta is town after mulling over it for the day and reading his post just now . He was really active and also his explanation about how he is town and I'm reading him wrong just felt ttown . Not sure who I pick for scum.really gotta read wheni get home.. Not being able to play is killing me lol. ##unvote mocsta | ||
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Usually town has some direction day one.this game there is none | ||
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On February 27 2014 10:08 raynpelikoneet wrote: And not only that suki, but instead of providing a direction you only come here to shit on the town for no reason. What does that achieve? Just wanna play I miss mafia. Sorry | ||
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On February 27 2014 10:08 Vivax wrote: Suki can you tell me if the points you previously made against mocsta still stand? And how you weigh them in compared to the new information you used in your decision to unvote him. My biggest beef with mocsta was him flip flopping and his evolution of reads not making sense. His response that that was just how he played, also his way of not providing reads on rayn and Holy ( I think) felt townie to me. I didn't like how he misconstrued me to be scummy early but at least he was scum hunting.in the end we both gota better read of each other andi think that's a good result. . | ||
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On February 27 2014 10:15 Vivax wrote: I've got to admit your change of read doesn't entirely persuade me. The part on Rayn is what you earlier called scummy methinks. Ya but If he's scum and I just madea big case on him calling him scum for not makinga case on rayn you think he would try to look good and make upa reason but instead he sticks to his guns. That seems more townie to me | ||
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On February 27 2014 10:27 Vivax wrote: Suki, earlier you said that that point exactly was scummy. Hmmm.. Yeah but ifi remember right there were two timesi asked mocsta to elaborate.the first time I asked him and he ignored or didn't see it. Abs that'swhat thatquote is referringto. then I posted my big case on him and called him out for not taking about rayn and he said straight up he wasn't going to. Different situations. | ||
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