Dandel I think lynching to remove roles from the pool would make it a bit more neutral. Scum can't counterclaim in this setup. The RNG has a lot of power in who wins and loses, and it's mostly in Town's favor.

Dandel Ion

Austria17960 Posts

May 28 2013 02:01 GMT

#63

On May 28 2013 10:45 Ace wrote:
Dandel I think lynching to remove roles from the pool would make it a bit more neutral. Scum can't counterclaim in this setup. The RNG has a lot of power in who wins and loses, and it's mostly in Town's favor.

I don't really see that making a big difference tbh
the only benefit would be to claim a role you actually have between the 3 mafia on a guy that's about to be lynched. Which doesn't work too well if the power doesn't consequently get shot in the night to be taken out and buys you a day at best.

it has more potential to screw up the mislynches mafia is going for by being claimed on a townie about to be lynched.

I don't think it'd help much.

Ace

United States16096 Posts

May 28 2013 02:06 GMT

#64

If Scum can't counterclaim a role then how do they get rid of it without shooting? All claims can be taken at face value during the day since the setup is open. Add in 2 roles that Scum don't want to lose and they have less options to advance their win condition than Town.

Scum will rely on the RNG much more heavily than Town who can all keep claiming every day. If Scum KP drops to 1 Town collectively agree that every night the roleblocker and the Cop claim and they decide who to investigate.

How does Scum deal with this potential problem?

Dandel Ion

Austria17960 Posts

May 28 2013 02:19 GMT

#65

So the claims can be taken at face value, but they can be somehow lynched?
That doesn't work out. Claims should never get lynched in an open setup without counterclaims, and counterclaiming is still suboptimal even then.

So even if you can lynch roles, the only one where I see this practically happening is the miller, who scum don't want to lynch.

I just don't see it helping the problem at all.

What I do think about is rounding up instead of down in the KP formula so mafia can keep shooting them dead since KP dropping is imo the core of the "problem scenarios".

Ace

United States16096 Posts

May 28 2013 02:39 GMT

#66

Yes that's the thing - there are no counter claims. Scum can't CC in the setup because the roles won't be taken from the pool. Scum lose a powerful option to stopping the Town here. Every claim is taken at face value now because the Town does not care if it is Scum making it - the role still lives on.

If roles can be lynched Scum at least have the option of counter claiming Cops or Doctors. The game can hit "follow the cop" scenario once Scum KP = 1. Without 5 or more Scum that isn't a far-fetched scenario.

ETA: Game breaking scenarios:

Once Scum KP hits 1 the Cop claims. Medic protects him. Roleblocker claims.

A.) The Scum team can't hit the cop so they are left with looking for the doctor. Since the roles are random every night they have to get lucky and hope they get doctor themselves. There are no good power role hunting heuristics available since who gets the doctor role switches all the time. Scum clearly don't want to kill the roleblocker with only 1 KP as they lose the potential to stop a claimed Cop. They are at the mercy of the RNG heavily.

Every day the Town tells the Doctor to claim. If the Doctor does not claim they know one of the people not claiming was Scum. This is the only option they have to deal with the Cop - pure RNG of getting the role. Otherwise the cop is unstoppable.

B.) With the roleblocker claiming they can choose to RB anyone but the Cop. A roleblocked Cop = roleblocker is Scum. So that option is out of play for them. Scum would need to get roleblocker, hit the medic and shoot the cop most likely through random investigation with their RoleCop. Once again they are at the mercy of the RNG.

No matter what path it takes the Town can ignore the RNG and have everyone claim as it is the most ProTown thing to do. The Scum team's options are limited. Without help from the RNG its a game of numbers.

Acrofales

Spain18295 Posts

May 28 2013 04:29 GMT

#67

I still think this setup is interesting, but I have to /out. Unlike other recent games this one looks to start before the weekend, and won't have time