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On February 21 2013 15:11 yamato77 wrote:
Actually lylo is when I'd say you should be MOST inclined to ignore associations and judge based on play alone.
I want a full response from you on my case of VE before I even consider the POSSIBILITY of lynching jay, and that's only if you can completely prove me wrong.
I want your response on my case on jay then as well
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On February 21 2013 15:11 yamato77 wrote:
Actually lylo is when I'd say you should be MOST inclined to ignore associations and judge based on play alone.
I want a full response from you on my case of VE before I even consider the POSSIBILITY of lynching jay, and that's only if you can completely prove me wrong.
Also that statement is just pure wrong
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On February 21 2013 15:15 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 15:13 debears wrote:On February 21 2013 15:11 yamato77 wrote:
Actually lylo is when I'd say you should be MOST inclined to ignore associations and judge based on play alone.
I want a full response from you on my case of VE before I even consider the POSSIBILITY of lynching jay, and that's only if you can completely prove me wrong. Also that statement is just pure wrong I think I'm right on this one bud. Considering your whole town read on VE is association bullshit, I'd think you were better than that.
The strongest part of my read on him is the snarfs pushing him HARD since early day 1. That means they would have to plan pushing each other FROM THE VERY BEGINNING
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 06 2013 14:25 Snarfs wrote:Hmm, disappear while two other players start shitting up the thread? Congrats VE, you're already #1 on my list. ##vote VisceraEyesAs far as the voting mechanics go, it really is a ton of WIFOm. You're both saying the same thing in different ways. Yes, we lynch scum and we need to not look scummy. Yes, scum is going to try to trick us into debating ad infinitum about the composition of their nominations. That pretty much ends the discussion, doesn't it? Look very closely at everything the nominees say and lynch the scum. No need to over complicate it. If it comes down to multiple people contributing well to town, we can discuss it then. On February 07 2013 08:44 Snarfs wrote:All right, so here are my thoughts: 1) On VE: My vote on VE was initially because of exactly what I said - of the three people that came into the conversation, he was the quickest to abandon it when things got heated. Now, he claims that he was commuting and I can't exactly dispute that. But since then, I've had no reason to move my vote off of him. Look at the way he's saying things. Who is he even pressuring? Read through his filter and try to figure out who he's pushing. Palmar!? We're not lynching Palmar day 1, why waste time? As for the other people VE is "pressuring", there's no vindication. Phagga? Nope. yamato? Maybe, I can't really tell. When VE is town, he pushes people. He pushes them hard to determine their alignment and it's obvious he's pushing people. I think this is scum VE. 2) In response to Mr. Cheesecake: Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 04:33 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:==SNIP== SnarfsBeen playing super neutral so far and non confrontational. Example: On February 06 2013 14:38 Snarfs wrote:
I could point out that it looks like one or both of you are purposefully being stubborn to try to draw reactions out of scum, possibly some sort of trap, but I don't know either of you well enough to give you that much credit. If you CAN do something, then you do it. This post serves no purpose other than to illustrate that either Oats or Mocsta could be stubborn for "possibly" some sort of trap, but then says he doesn't have enough information. I was just saying what was on my mind. I was hoping by adding the "but" part of things someone else who knew these players would chime in. There are a lot of new faces here for me, and I apologize for not making it more clear that I was looking for some input from someone else. Either way, the point I was getting across was that it was not scummy that they were arguing like that. Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 16:22 Snarfs wrote:On February 06 2013 15:33 Mocsta wrote:On February 06 2013 15:26 VisceraEyes wrote:
Mocsta I'm intrigued by your posts regarding the nomination phase. However I'm going to suggest/request that you save it for AFTER the dawn phase of D2 so that scum aren't given instructions on how you're going to view nominees they put up. It's going to be clear enough after D2 because we're going to have to lynch into their choices - but if we can go all of D1 without speculating on who and why scum will send up D2 I think that's going to be a net gain for town. I disagree. On February 06 2013 12:04 Mocsta wrote:
The choices scum have for nomination will be based on the status quo of the ODD days; so it is paramount to consider ODD day play for EVEN day nomination. Having said that, I am going to hold off further strategy talk due to: fuck all people online. Need some others to contribute. @SnarfWhat do you make of VE wanting to bury all nomination mechanic talk till the nominations are released? I think it's a null tell. Town would do it if they wanted to shift the focus off of WIFOM. Scum would do it if they thought it was in town's best interests to be talking about the setup. I've personally never cared for too much setup speculation as most of my scum hunting success has come from observing what they actually do, not guessing at what they should be doing. Another null tell. I was just answering the question that was asked. Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 14:34 Snarfs wrote:On February 06 2013 14:27 Oatsmaster wrote:
Hey Snarfs,
Do you have any conclusions about the 'discussion' between me and Mocsta relating to our alignments/ Not really being swayed either way. Looks like standard day 1 banter. The only real stance he had on someone is VE, but the only justification is for his "disappearing act". Snarfs has had plenty of time to justify his vote, but all I see is "lol people were shouting in thread you weren't there must be scum". Apart from that, the only thing he's done is talk about WIFOM crap. Snarfs plz do something instead of trying to be all blendy and stuff, k? ==SNIP== Please read my first point and if this comment still stands feel free to rephrase it or ask again. 3) On Mocsta: It looks like most of the votes on Mocsta are based on meta (correct me if I'm wrong, please: Oats, yamato, JX). Now, from the case that yamato makes, my biggest issue is that the tone between NMM XXXV (the referenced scum game) and this game is quite different. In the referenced game, he is quite unabrasive. He is questioning people but he's not actually showing any emotion, as in this game. Compare: Show nested quote +
I appreciate the sense of energy you are giving back to this thread, and I certainly do not want to deter that; town needs this energy.
BUT.. you are almost sounding "paranoid" - I know this, because after my last game, many assumed I was "paranoid".
I think we both want the same thing, a town environment where people can voice their opinion and join together for the scum hunt.
When you say "it seems fair since people like you are jumping in to defend him pretty fast"; that alienates participants from wanting to contribute.
You are actually creating an environment scum can thrive in with that attitude - even though I doubt that is your intention.
I ask that you please think about the above.
vs. Show nested quote +
Oats you have an uncanny ability to read a wall of text and focus on one word in that paragraph.
You sound like a whiny chick to me, who hears one word she doesnt like, and zones off to everything else.
I AM NOT SETUP SPECULATING. The fuckn setup is 9 town, 4 mafia.
I am saying we need to make scum work hard to become read as town,
I am saying good play Day1 is to emphasise quality posts, and avoid being a lurker
I am saying, bad play Day1, is going to make nominations for scum in Day2 much fuckn easier.
Quote 1 sounds all nice and blendy in. Quote 2 is.. not. This meta argument is not convincing enough to sway me to change my vote. On February 07 2013 23:54 Snarfs wrote:
Here and catching up now. I'm just on page 20 and I see Djo is voting Palmar as well??
Guys, Palmar is not a lynch target day 1. Why? Because if he's town, he will find scum! And if he doesn't find scum, we lynch him later in the game! It's that simple! He's too hard to read otherwise, and this is by far the best indicator of his alignment. Lynching him day 1 is way too risky in a cost/benefit sense.
As for people doubting my read on VE (clearly this is the case as no one seems to be listening), if you have time right now please look through my history for the game where I vig'd VE night 1 when him and ace were scum. It was one of bugs' games, I can't remember the name right now and I'm on my phone or I'd look it up myself. He's playing exactly like that!
Now I'm going to finish catching up. I can make a more detailed case on VE when I'm not lying in bed at 7 am (I'll pull the quoted out of that game for you if no one else does me the favour of linking it). On February 08 2013 01:25 Snarfs wrote:
Okay, I'm caught up give me another little bit to get to my computer and I'll do up that case on VE.
I don't think prplhz is a good lynch. Normally when prplhz is town I feel like he's scummy and right now I feel like he's scummy so he's probably town. Last time we played together we were both scum and he was a lot more tunnely. Last time I was town I tried to lynch him because he gives off this just blending in vibe that I picked up this game from his first couple of posts - my immediate reaction was to agree with Palmar that he's scum, but I double checked these last two games I'm talking about and this seems much more in line with town prplhz. On February 08 2013 02:04 Snarfs wrote:What I expect from town VEShow nested quote +On March 18 2012 07:43 VisceraEyes wrote:On March 18 2012 07:41 johnnywup wrote:
I don't buy it from VE, no reason to reveal faction at this stage in the game when no one is even accusing you. You may be trying to get our subconscious trust from the very beginning.
But I don't know. You could be lying but you could be telling the truth. It's too early to say which is more likely. But I've got an eye on you. Step one is establishing my innocence. You don't buy it, maybe some will. This is but a step along the path. Walk with me my son. He wants people to know he's town! He wants to establish innocence! This would make even more sense in a game where HE CAN'T BE KILLED AT NIGHT. Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 07:47 VisceraEyes wrote:
I can assure you no cop is going to need to check me by the end of the day johnnywup.
I can see skepticism in your weary eyes. Perhaps jaded by the scum's repeated attempts at manipulation? Deceit taking it's toll on your very soul?
Those days are over. Again, he wants people to know he's town! He wants to be the big man on campus when he's town. Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 08:32 VisceraEyes wrote:On March 18 2012 08:27 xsksc wrote:On March 18 2012 08:26 johnnywup wrote:
how nice of you to post, xsksc. anything else to say? Yeah. Why do you think Jackal is town, already? I'm interested in the answer to this as well. I have my own reasons, and I've strategically omitted them for an occasion such as this! What fun! He plays around with people to try and actually figure out if they're scum! He prods and gets people to react emotionally. I see very little of that this game. What I expect from scum VEShow nested quote +On April 22 2012 21:53 VisceraEyes wrote:It was mostly me disagreeing with Forumite's case. Zentor seems like a lurky-scum kinda player, and doubt as scum he'd enter the game voting for himself. That's kinda an advanced scum move and (no offense Zentor) not one I see MrZentor making. I could have just said "I don't agree with a MrZentor vote" but the way I said it gets more people to trust me faster...or so I thought.  No, it was just my entry into the game after drinking at my sister's bday party guys, nothing to see here. However, let's try that again with less alcohol in my bloodstream :D @Forumite So it is your opinion that MrZentor, as scum, voted for himself only to "get responses from people" and then, as scum, singled out prplhz? In the name of....what? Furthering his scum agenda? I don't know, I see it more as a townZentor move myself. That's why I disagree. Wishy-washy. "oooo I don't know... i see it more as townZentor... boohoo" Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 02:06 VisceraEyes wrote:
I think Forumite is town - but I think his MrZentor wagon is weak as shit, because I think Zentor is town too. :S "oooo I THINK they're both town but I could be wrong..." Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 04:45 VisceraEyes wrote:
Well, I know marvellosity is capable of more - I didn't look at his early play, admittedly my expectation of him is based on his later game activity which I have read.
Sbrubbles OMGUS of me is strange, considering the reason he's saying I'm suspicious is all the "good discussion town has had over suspicious behavior" and my penchant to "vote a lurker like him" in spite of it "usually being good town play". Like...it doesn't register.
I'm good with my vote on him. If we're consolidating, I prefer it's on this guy. Someone needs to tell me why their candidate is better than mine. "Screw it, I'm too tired to find scum. Let's just vote this guy who thinks I'm scum." THINGS YOU SHOULD BE NOTICING:1) When he's town he doesn't give a f***. 2) When he's town he MAKES DAMN SURE HE LOOKS TOWN 3) When he's town his reads actually make sense, when he's scum I can't tell why he's doing what he's doing. I can't tell his motives right now. I don't know why he's voting for prplhz. Because Palmar is? But Palmar is his number 1 scum read? It doesn't make sense! Scum scum scum. On February 08 2013 02:25 Snarfs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 02:08 Mocsta wrote:On February 08 2013 02:04 Snarfs wrote:
THINGS YOU SHOULD BE NOTICING:
1) When he's town he doesn't give a f***.
2) When he's town he MAKES DAMN SURE HE LOOKS TOWN
3) When he's town his reads actually make sense, when he's scum I can't tell why he's doing what he's doing.
I can't tell his motives right now. I don't know why he's voting for prplhz. Because Palmar is? But Palmar is his number 1 scum read? It doesn't make sense!
Scum scum scum. *Facepalm* Sorry I didnt realise in vet world, finishing with "scum scum scum" was a killing blow to get votes. Look will read this in detail, but so far, I didnt see any quotes from this game. Seems like you did a pure meta read; right now, pretty disappointed I had to wait for this. I'm trying to illustrate here how VE finds scum. If you read his filter this game, you'll notice this is not what he's doing. If you know how someone tries to find scum and you know that that's not what they're doing this game, then it's a combination of meta and gamesense, or whatever you want to call it. This is not VE trying to find scum. On February 08 2013 02:55 Snarfs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 02:35 Mocsta wrote:On February 08 2013 02:04 Snarfs wrote:
THINGS YOU SHOULD BE NOTICING:
1) When he's town he doesn't give a f***.
2) When he's town he MAKES DAMN SURE HE LOOKS TOWN
3) When he's town his reads actually make sense, when he's scum I can't tell why he's doing what he's doing.
I can't tell his motives right now. I don't know why he's voting for prplhz. Because Palmar is? But Palmar is his number 1 scum read? It doesn't make sense!
Scum scum scum. Snarfs; I read your case in detail. Im going to be blunt here. Before I read your case: My matrix: Snarfs:null, VE: probably town. After I read your case: No change. May I add, using your criteria for town VE, makes me think he is town even more.Whats agitating with your case is that the meta is from March 2012. The game changes, and so do people. (Yes subconscious behaviour probably doesnt.. but that isnt int he crux of your commentary) You're pointing out post structure meta etc and its out of date by one year. I was hoping you were going to post a read from Normal Mini mafia 4 (Meta Feb 2013, he was town) ===================== What are we left with? Either: You are scum, and trying to contribute without contributing OR You are tunneled town, that was so fixated on a concept you couldnt let go. Many in the thread will probably say you're scum; I want to give you a chance as i think something like this is far more likely from tunneled town. Can you please discuss the following: @SnarfsYou said before you dont think Palmar should be lynched. However, Palmar has voted prplhz; who many have defended as town due to meta (including you) If you think prplhz is town; do you still support Palmar surviving this lynch? If so, I would like a detailed response on why. I'll answer your question but I need you to answer mine: Tell me why you think VE is "probably town". I just don't see him trying to find scum right now. And sure, maybe my meta is out of date, but that doesn't change the fact that he's still being all wishy-washy like in his reads. Look at how he attacks me: Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 09:35 VisceraEyes wrote:I think Snarfs might well be scum. So here's a little push in his direction, care of the guy who isn't pushing anyone. First of all, something I noticed last night. On February 06 2013 14:25 Snarfs wrote:On February 06 2013 11:58 Oatsmaster wrote:
Also, WHERE DID YOU GO VE? Hmm, disappear while two other players start shitting up the thread? Congrats VE, you're already #1 on my list. ##vote VisceraEyesAs far as the voting mechanics go, it really is a ton of WIFOm. You're both saying the same thing in different ways. Yes, we lynch scum and we need to not look scummy. Yes, scum is going to try to trick us into debating ad infinitum about the composition of their nominations. That pretty much ends the discussion, doesn't it? Look very closely at everything the nominees say and lynch the scum. No need to over complicate it. If it comes down to multiple people contributing well to town, we can discuss it then. Here we see Snarfs' first vote on me. He's convinced of my alignment based on the fact that I left the thread "when two other players start shitting up the thread". But...why? Why is that indicative of me being scum? The only way that makes sense is if he is assuming that Oats and Mocsta are both town...and this is a conclusion he couldn't have already come to at this point in the game. This alone isn't really enough for me to call him scum, but then we see how he pushes me after this: On February 07 2013 06:08 Snarfs wrote:
Just to let Cheese and everyone else know, I am here and reading along with the thread. I have class for another hour and then I'm heading home so I will be able to respond and properly formulate my thoughts then.
As a preview though, I'm still getting a bad vibe from VE. It's a feeling right now but I wouldn't mind more people looking at him closely and just really asking if he's trying to find scum. On February 07 2013 08:44 Snarfs wrote:
All right, so here are my thoughts:
1) On VE:
My vote on VE was initially because of exactly what I said - of the three people that came into the conversation, he was the quickest to abandon it when things got heated. Now, he claims that he was commuting and I can't exactly dispute that.
But since then, I've had no reason to move my vote off of him. Look at the way he's saying things. Who is he even pressuring? Read through his filter and try to figure out who he's pushing. Palmar!? We're not lynching Palmar day 1, why waste time? As for the other people VE is "pressuring", there's no vindication. Phagga? Nope. yamato? Maybe, I can't really tell. When VE is town, he pushes people. He pushes them hard to determine their alignment and it's obvious he's pushing people. I think this is scum VE.
**snip** Anything new in there? Just a weak-ass meta read based on 24 hours of D1. But he asked for others' opinions TWICE in those two posts. We have players who haven't said fuck all. He's saying we can't lynch Palmar today...why? Why the fuck not? He's not doing shit. But he wants to lynch me? Based on what? A weak ass meta read and an absence I've explained? It's cognitive dissonance. Why would he be against lynching Palmar D1 and not against lynching VE D1 for the same reason? I mean, okay if he thinks Palmar is better for town than me assuming we're both town, that's one thing...but he doesn't say as much. He simply shuts down the Palmar lynch for no reason...when no one is even voting for Palmar but me. Now I'm at a crossroads. I want to kill Palmar with the holy fire of righeousness. But I also want Snarfs to hang. I want others' opinions of this, because at this point I could go either way. Kill the scummy lurker who doesn't give a shit, or kill the scummy active participant? Right now I'm leaning lynching Palmar, but if there's more support for a Snarfs lynch I'm all over that shit. First of all, notice how he starts "I think Snarfs might well be scum. So here's a little push in his direction, care of the guy who isn't pushing anyone." He's not aggressive, he's not interested. Hell he's not even addressing me. ------------------------------------------- I still don't like a Palmar lynch. I can't read Palmar like I can read VE. If I thought VE might be town I would be just as against a VE lynch as a Palmar lynch because they both have an uncanny ability to find scum as town.
That is just from the first page of snarf's filter Yamato. Read it.
Nearly all Snarf's effort was slinging shit on VE and trying to show VE is scum.
Yet again, answer this very important question:
What is the purpose for scum solely pushing their own scummate without making any other contributions to the game?
Who else did Snarf's truly try to set up?
If VE is scum, was Snarf's (and scum) purposely ceding all thread control by not pushing anyone else?
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On February 21 2013 15:30 Oatsmaster wrote:
Because snarf's didnt have any influence, by bussing VE early, he could have town cred if VE flipped before him.
I did this in LIX too.
So you are saying scum planned on snarfs, who had NO THREAD PRESENCE OR TOWN CRED, to be lynched after VE, WHO HAD SOME THREAD PRESENCE AND TOWN CRED???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
You are saying that their whole plan revolved around this ridiculous assumption. A person with thread presence will not be lynched over a person without thread presence 90% of the time
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On February 21 2013 15:21 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 15:19 debears wrote:On February 21 2013 15:15 yamato77 wrote:On February 21 2013 15:13 debears wrote:On February 21 2013 15:11 yamato77 wrote:
Actually lylo is when I'd say you should be MOST inclined to ignore associations and judge based on play alone.
I want a full response from you on my case of VE before I even consider the POSSIBILITY of lynching jay, and that's only if you can completely prove me wrong. Also that statement is just pure wrong I think I'm right on this one bud. Considering your whole town read on VE is association bullshit, I'd think you were better than that. The strongest part of my read on him is the snarfs pushing him HARD since early day 1. That means they would have to plan pushing each other FROM THE VERY BEGINNING Is that really that difficult to fathom? Also, I want to see how Snarfs "pushed VE hard" when it was obvious he was completely un-involved in the affairs of town. His read on VE was distancing, not an honest attempt to get him lynched. It's pretty obvious.
Just so we are clear that snarfs had no thread presence
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On February 21 2013 15:48 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
I really hate to admit it, but debears making more sense than either of you guys. And he prolly scum, lol.
:/ dude
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On February 21 2013 15:52 Oatsmaster wrote:
It wasnt a plan, snarfs couldnt really find any town scummy, said, hey VE im gonna bus you, and possibly gain town cred for attacking a really good player.
Then, unfortuately, VE turns out to be alongside Snarfs as the day 3 lynchees.
Are you serious?
You don't play mafia by going "hey, I'm not gonna attempt at all to frame any townies day 1. I'm gonna frame just you scumbuddies!"
That doesn't happen day 1. Snarfs solely pushed VE day 1. Scum would be ceding at least 1/4 of their thread presence and power for a stupid potential bus for town cred that only lasts for so long.
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On February 21 2013 15:52 yamato77 wrote:
You can't have it both ways. Snarfs having no thread presence implies that there's no possible way for him to lynch VE, and is thus completely worthless in terms of being able to determine VE's alignment.
On February 21 2013 15:54 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 15:52 Oatsmaster wrote:
It wasnt a plan, snarfs couldnt really find any town scummy, said, hey VE im gonna bus you, and possibly gain town cred for attacking a really good player.
Then, unfortuately, VE turns out to be alongside Snarfs as the day 3 lynchees.
Are you serious? You don't play mafia by going "hey, I'm not gonna attempt at all to frame any townies day 1. I'm gonna frame just you scumbuddies!" That doesn't happen day 1. Snarfs solely pushed VE day 1. Scum would be ceding at least 1/4 of their thread presence and power for a stupid potential bus for town cred that only lasts for so long.
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On February 21 2013 15:56 yamato77 wrote:
Snarfs never made any serious attempt to lead town toward lynching VE all game.
VE never made any serious attempt to lead town toward lynching Snarfs all game.
Your point is now moot.
You need to sit down and READ yamato
When you make all your posts trying to frame someone, that is a serious attempt to try to get them lynched by that person, despite to the standards that you would hold up to yourself.
In other words, just because for you it wouldn't be a serious attempt to get VE lynched, it was a serious attempt by snarfs by looking at his low post, lurky playstyle
On February 21 2013 15:28 debears wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 06 2013 14:25 Snarfs wrote:Hmm, disappear while two other players start shitting up the thread? Congrats VE, you're already #1 on my list. ##vote VisceraEyesAs far as the voting mechanics go, it really is a ton of WIFOm. You're both saying the same thing in different ways. Yes, we lynch scum and we need to not look scummy. Yes, scum is going to try to trick us into debating ad infinitum about the composition of their nominations. That pretty much ends the discussion, doesn't it? Look very closely at everything the nominees say and lynch the scum. No need to over complicate it. If it comes down to multiple people contributing well to town, we can discuss it then. On February 07 2013 08:44 Snarfs wrote:All right, so here are my thoughts: 1) On VE: My vote on VE was initially because of exactly what I said - of the three people that came into the conversation, he was the quickest to abandon it when things got heated. Now, he claims that he was commuting and I can't exactly dispute that. But since then, I've had no reason to move my vote off of him. Look at the way he's saying things. Who is he even pressuring? Read through his filter and try to figure out who he's pushing. Palmar!? We're not lynching Palmar day 1, why waste time? As for the other people VE is "pressuring", there's no vindication. Phagga? Nope. yamato? Maybe, I can't really tell. When VE is town, he pushes people. He pushes them hard to determine their alignment and it's obvious he's pushing people. I think this is scum VE. 2) In response to Mr. Cheesecake: Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 04:33 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:==SNIP== SnarfsBeen playing super neutral so far and non confrontational. Example: On February 06 2013 14:38 Snarfs wrote:
I could point out that it looks like one or both of you are purposefully being stubborn to try to draw reactions out of scum, possibly some sort of trap, but I don't know either of you well enough to give you that much credit. If you CAN do something, then you do it. This post serves no purpose other than to illustrate that either Oats or Mocsta could be stubborn for "possibly" some sort of trap, but then says he doesn't have enough information. I was just saying what was on my mind. I was hoping by adding the "but" part of things someone else who knew these players would chime in. There are a lot of new faces here for me, and I apologize for not making it more clear that I was looking for some input from someone else. Either way, the point I was getting across was that it was not scummy that they were arguing like that. Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 16:22 Snarfs wrote:On February 06 2013 15:33 Mocsta wrote:On February 06 2013 15:26 VisceraEyes wrote:
Mocsta I'm intrigued by your posts regarding the nomination phase. However I'm going to suggest/request that you save it for AFTER the dawn phase of D2 so that scum aren't given instructions on how you're going to view nominees they put up. It's going to be clear enough after D2 because we're going to have to lynch into their choices - but if we can go all of D1 without speculating on who and why scum will send up D2 I think that's going to be a net gain for town. I disagree. On February 06 2013 12:04 Mocsta wrote:
The choices scum have for nomination will be based on the status quo of the ODD days; so it is paramount to consider ODD day play for EVEN day nomination. Having said that, I am going to hold off further strategy talk due to: fuck all people online. Need some others to contribute. @SnarfWhat do you make of VE wanting to bury all nomination mechanic talk till the nominations are released? I think it's a null tell. Town would do it if they wanted to shift the focus off of WIFOM. Scum would do it if they thought it was in town's best interests to be talking about the setup. I've personally never cared for too much setup speculation as most of my scum hunting success has come from observing what they actually do, not guessing at what they should be doing. Another null tell. I was just answering the question that was asked. Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 14:34 Snarfs wrote:On February 06 2013 14:27 Oatsmaster wrote:
Hey Snarfs,
Do you have any conclusions about the 'discussion' between me and Mocsta relating to our alignments/ Not really being swayed either way. Looks like standard day 1 banter. The only real stance he had on someone is VE, but the only justification is for his "disappearing act". Snarfs has had plenty of time to justify his vote, but all I see is "lol people were shouting in thread you weren't there must be scum". Apart from that, the only thing he's done is talk about WIFOM crap. Snarfs plz do something instead of trying to be all blendy and stuff, k? ==SNIP== Please read my first point and if this comment still stands feel free to rephrase it or ask again. 3) On Mocsta: It looks like most of the votes on Mocsta are based on meta (correct me if I'm wrong, please: Oats, yamato, JX). Now, from the case that yamato makes, my biggest issue is that the tone between NMM XXXV (the referenced scum game) and this game is quite different. In the referenced game, he is quite unabrasive. He is questioning people but he's not actually showing any emotion, as in this game. Compare: Show nested quote +
I appreciate the sense of energy you are giving back to this thread, and I certainly do not want to deter that; town needs this energy.
BUT.. you are almost sounding "paranoid" - I know this, because after my last game, many assumed I was "paranoid".
I think we both want the same thing, a town environment where people can voice their opinion and join together for the scum hunt.
When you say "it seems fair since people like you are jumping in to defend him pretty fast"; that alienates participants from wanting to contribute.
You are actually creating an environment scum can thrive in with that attitude - even though I doubt that is your intention.
I ask that you please think about the above.
vs. Show nested quote +
Oats you have an uncanny ability to read a wall of text and focus on one word in that paragraph.
You sound like a whiny chick to me, who hears one word she doesnt like, and zones off to everything else.
I AM NOT SETUP SPECULATING. The fuckn setup is 9 town, 4 mafia.
I am saying we need to make scum work hard to become read as town,
I am saying good play Day1 is to emphasise quality posts, and avoid being a lurker
I am saying, bad play Day1, is going to make nominations for scum in Day2 much fuckn easier.
Quote 1 sounds all nice and blendy in. Quote 2 is.. not. This meta argument is not convincing enough to sway me to change my vote. On February 07 2013 23:54 Snarfs wrote:
Here and catching up now. I'm just on page 20 and I see Djo is voting Palmar as well??
Guys, Palmar is not a lynch target day 1. Why? Because if he's town, he will find scum! And if he doesn't find scum, we lynch him later in the game! It's that simple! He's too hard to read otherwise, and this is by far the best indicator of his alignment. Lynching him day 1 is way too risky in a cost/benefit sense.
As for people doubting my read on VE (clearly this is the case as no one seems to be listening), if you have time right now please look through my history for the game where I vig'd VE night 1 when him and ace were scum. It was one of bugs' games, I can't remember the name right now and I'm on my phone or I'd look it up myself. He's playing exactly like that!
Now I'm going to finish catching up. I can make a more detailed case on VE when I'm not lying in bed at 7 am (I'll pull the quoted out of that game for you if no one else does me the favour of linking it). On February 08 2013 01:25 Snarfs wrote:
Okay, I'm caught up give me another little bit to get to my computer and I'll do up that case on VE.
I don't think prplhz is a good lynch. Normally when prplhz is town I feel like he's scummy and right now I feel like he's scummy so he's probably town. Last time we played together we were both scum and he was a lot more tunnely. Last time I was town I tried to lynch him because he gives off this just blending in vibe that I picked up this game from his first couple of posts - my immediate reaction was to agree with Palmar that he's scum, but I double checked these last two games I'm talking about and this seems much more in line with town prplhz. On February 08 2013 02:04 Snarfs wrote:What I expect from town VEShow nested quote +On March 18 2012 07:43 VisceraEyes wrote:On March 18 2012 07:41 johnnywup wrote:
I don't buy it from VE, no reason to reveal faction at this stage in the game when no one is even accusing you. You may be trying to get our subconscious trust from the very beginning.
But I don't know. You could be lying but you could be telling the truth. It's too early to say which is more likely. But I've got an eye on you. Step one is establishing my innocence. You don't buy it, maybe some will. This is but a step along the path. Walk with me my son. He wants people to know he's town! He wants to establish innocence! This would make even more sense in a game where HE CAN'T BE KILLED AT NIGHT. Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 07:47 VisceraEyes wrote:
I can assure you no cop is going to need to check me by the end of the day johnnywup.
I can see skepticism in your weary eyes. Perhaps jaded by the scum's repeated attempts at manipulation? Deceit taking it's toll on your very soul?
Those days are over. Again, he wants people to know he's town! He wants to be the big man on campus when he's town. Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 08:32 VisceraEyes wrote:On March 18 2012 08:27 xsksc wrote:On March 18 2012 08:26 johnnywup wrote:
how nice of you to post, xsksc. anything else to say? Yeah. Why do you think Jackal is town, already? I'm interested in the answer to this as well. I have my own reasons, and I've strategically omitted them for an occasion such as this! What fun! He plays around with people to try and actually figure out if they're scum! He prods and gets people to react emotionally. I see very little of that this game. What I expect from scum VEShow nested quote +On April 22 2012 21:53 VisceraEyes wrote:It was mostly me disagreeing with Forumite's case. Zentor seems like a lurky-scum kinda player, and doubt as scum he'd enter the game voting for himself. That's kinda an advanced scum move and (no offense Zentor) not one I see MrZentor making. I could have just said "I don't agree with a MrZentor vote" but the way I said it gets more people to trust me faster...or so I thought. No, it was just my entry into the game after drinking at my sister's bday party guys, nothing to see here. However, let's try that again with less alcohol in my bloodstream :D @Forumite So it is your opinion that MrZentor, as scum, voted for himself only to "get responses from people" and then, as scum, singled out prplhz? In the name of....what? Furthering his scum agenda? I don't know, I see it more as a townZentor move myself. That's why I disagree. Wishy-washy. "oooo I don't know... i see it more as townZentor... boohoo" Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 02:06 VisceraEyes wrote:
I think Forumite is town - but I think his MrZentor wagon is weak as shit, because I think Zentor is town too. :S "oooo I THINK they're both town but I could be wrong..." Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 04:45 VisceraEyes wrote:
Well, I know marvellosity is capable of more - I didn't look at his early play, admittedly my expectation of him is based on his later game activity which I have read.
Sbrubbles OMGUS of me is strange, considering the reason he's saying I'm suspicious is all the "good discussion town has had over suspicious behavior" and my penchant to "vote a lurker like him" in spite of it "usually being good town play". Like...it doesn't register.
I'm good with my vote on him. If we're consolidating, I prefer it's on this guy. Someone needs to tell me why their candidate is better than mine. "Screw it, I'm too tired to find scum. Let's just vote this guy who thinks I'm scum." THINGS YOU SHOULD BE NOTICING:1) When he's town he doesn't give a f***. 2) When he's town he MAKES DAMN SURE HE LOOKS TOWN 3) When he's town his reads actually make sense, when he's scum I can't tell why he's doing what he's doing. I can't tell his motives right now. I don't know why he's voting for prplhz. Because Palmar is? But Palmar is his number 1 scum read? It doesn't make sense! Scum scum scum. On February 08 2013 02:25 Snarfs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 02:08 Mocsta wrote:On February 08 2013 02:04 Snarfs wrote:
THINGS YOU SHOULD BE NOTICING:
1) When he's town he doesn't give a f***.
2) When he's town he MAKES DAMN SURE HE LOOKS TOWN
3) When he's town his reads actually make sense, when he's scum I can't tell why he's doing what he's doing.
I can't tell his motives right now. I don't know why he's voting for prplhz. Because Palmar is? But Palmar is his number 1 scum read? It doesn't make sense!
Scum scum scum. *Facepalm* Sorry I didnt realise in vet world, finishing with "scum scum scum" was a killing blow to get votes. Look will read this in detail, but so far, I didnt see any quotes from this game. Seems like you did a pure meta read; right now, pretty disappointed I had to wait for this. I'm trying to illustrate here how VE finds scum. If you read his filter this game, you'll notice this is not what he's doing. If you know how someone tries to find scum and you know that that's not what they're doing this game, then it's a combination of meta and gamesense, or whatever you want to call it. This is not VE trying to find scum. On February 08 2013 02:55 Snarfs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 02:35 Mocsta wrote:On February 08 2013 02:04 Snarfs wrote:
THINGS YOU SHOULD BE NOTICING:
1) When he's town he doesn't give a f***.
2) When he's town he MAKES DAMN SURE HE LOOKS TOWN
3) When he's town his reads actually make sense, when he's scum I can't tell why he's doing what he's doing.
I can't tell his motives right now. I don't know why he's voting for prplhz. Because Palmar is? But Palmar is his number 1 scum read? It doesn't make sense!
Scum scum scum. Snarfs; I read your case in detail. Im going to be blunt here. Before I read your case: My matrix: Snarfs:null, VE: probably town. After I read your case: No change. May I add, using your criteria for town VE, makes me think he is town even more.Whats agitating with your case is that the meta is from March 2012. The game changes, and so do people. (Yes subconscious behaviour probably doesnt.. but that isnt int he crux of your commentary) You're pointing out post structure meta etc and its out of date by one year. I was hoping you were going to post a read from Normal Mini mafia 4 (Meta Feb 2013, he was town) ===================== What are we left with? Either: You are scum, and trying to contribute without contributing OR You are tunneled town, that was so fixated on a concept you couldnt let go. Many in the thread will probably say you're scum; I want to give you a chance as i think something like this is far more likely from tunneled town. Can you please discuss the following: @SnarfsYou said before you dont think Palmar should be lynched. However, Palmar has voted prplhz; who many have defended as town due to meta (including you) If you think prplhz is town; do you still support Palmar surviving this lynch? If so, I would like a detailed response on why. I'll answer your question but I need you to answer mine: Tell me why you think VE is "probably town". I just don't see him trying to find scum right now. And sure, maybe my meta is out of date, but that doesn't change the fact that he's still being all wishy-washy like in his reads. Look at how he attacks me: Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 09:35 VisceraEyes wrote:I think Snarfs might well be scum. So here's a little push in his direction, care of the guy who isn't pushing anyone. First of all, something I noticed last night. On February 06 2013 14:25 Snarfs wrote:On February 06 2013 11:58 Oatsmaster wrote:
Also, WHERE DID YOU GO VE? Hmm, disappear while two other players start shitting up the thread? Congrats VE, you're already #1 on my list. ##vote VisceraEyesAs far as the voting mechanics go, it really is a ton of WIFOm. You're both saying the same thing in different ways. Yes, we lynch scum and we need to not look scummy. Yes, scum is going to try to trick us into debating ad infinitum about the composition of their nominations. That pretty much ends the discussion, doesn't it? Look very closely at everything the nominees say and lynch the scum. No need to over complicate it. If it comes down to multiple people contributing well to town, we can discuss it then. Here we see Snarfs' first vote on me. He's convinced of my alignment based on the fact that I left the thread "when two other players start shitting up the thread". But...why? Why is that indicative of me being scum? The only way that makes sense is if he is assuming that Oats and Mocsta are both town...and this is a conclusion he couldn't have already come to at this point in the game. This alone isn't really enough for me to call him scum, but then we see how he pushes me after this: On February 07 2013 06:08 Snarfs wrote:
Just to let Cheese and everyone else know, I am here and reading along with the thread. I have class for another hour and then I'm heading home so I will be able to respond and properly formulate my thoughts then.
As a preview though, I'm still getting a bad vibe from VE. It's a feeling right now but I wouldn't mind more people looking at him closely and just really asking if he's trying to find scum. On February 07 2013 08:44 Snarfs wrote:
All right, so here are my thoughts:
1) On VE:
My vote on VE was initially because of exactly what I said - of the three people that came into the conversation, he was the quickest to abandon it when things got heated. Now, he claims that he was commuting and I can't exactly dispute that.
But since then, I've had no reason to move my vote off of him. Look at the way he's saying things. Who is he even pressuring? Read through his filter and try to figure out who he's pushing. Palmar!? We're not lynching Palmar day 1, why waste time? As for the other people VE is "pressuring", there's no vindication. Phagga? Nope. yamato? Maybe, I can't really tell. When VE is town, he pushes people. He pushes them hard to determine their alignment and it's obvious he's pushing people. I think this is scum VE.
**snip** Anything new in there? Just a weak-ass meta read based on 24 hours of D1. But he asked for others' opinions TWICE in those two posts. We have players who haven't said fuck all. He's saying we can't lynch Palmar today...why? Why the fuck not? He's not doing shit. But he wants to lynch me? Based on what? A weak ass meta read and an absence I've explained? It's cognitive dissonance. Why would he be against lynching Palmar D1 and not against lynching VE D1 for the same reason? I mean, okay if he thinks Palmar is better for town than me assuming we're both town, that's one thing...but he doesn't say as much. He simply shuts down the Palmar lynch for no reason...when no one is even voting for Palmar but me. Now I'm at a crossroads. I want to kill Palmar with the holy fire of righeousness. But I also want Snarfs to hang. I want others' opinions of this, because at this point I could go either way. Kill the scummy lurker who doesn't give a shit, or kill the scummy active participant? Right now I'm leaning lynching Palmar, but if there's more support for a Snarfs lynch I'm all over that shit. First of all, notice how he starts "I think Snarfs might well be scum. So here's a little push in his direction, care of the guy who isn't pushing anyone." He's not aggressive, he's not interested. Hell he's not even addressing me. ------------------------------------------- I still don't like a Palmar lynch. I can't read Palmar like I can read VE. If I thought VE might be town I would be just as against a VE lynch as a Palmar lynch because they both have an uncanny ability to find scum as town. That is just from the first page of snarf's filter Yamato. Read it. Nearly all Snarf's effort was slinging shit on VE and trying to show VE is scum. Yet again, answer this very important question: What is the purpose for scum solely pushing their own scummate without making any other contributions to the game? Who else did Snarf's truly try to set up? If VE is scum, was Snarf's (and scum) purposely ceding all thread control by not pushing anyone else?
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On February 21 2013 15:57 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +
So you are saying scum planned on snarfs, who had NO THREAD PRESENCE OR TOWN CRED, to be lynched after VE,
Did you not read LIX? I did that to Gonzaw, gonzaw bussed me back, ended up being lynched before me, and I got town cred. Not much, but it was still a reason for people to think that I was town. Sometimes there is no 'plan' because it looks too organized/scum is not very organized.
I was in that right? If I recall correctly, you didn't solely push Gonzaw, but I'll take a quick peak and see if the circumstances are similar in context.
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Oats you didn't start going after Gonzaw until well into day 1, after you already questioned multiple others. Then, when it came time to actually vote for a lynch, you put pressure on me and others, not solely Gonzaw.
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On February 21 2013 16:02 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 16:01 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
le wifom up in here. could be double bus could not be double bus. what do. read my case on VE, walk away with complete knowledge of his play this game and how even with the snarfs association, he's still completely mafia. Then lynch him, and scum concede.
Read my case on jay, lynch jay, lynch oats, scum concede
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On February 21 2013 16:06 yamato77 wrote:
CC, THINK ABOUT THIS:
If VE is town, why would either of me or you (and Mocsta) be put up as nominations before him?
Palmar and Sloosh, two veteran players, were nominated day 2, yet the third is NOT VE, but one of the newest players, Mocsta. D4, you were put up. D6, me. Is VE really less of a threat as town then either of us? No. He's fucking mafia, and mafia aren't nominating themselves at all.
Palmar is a better town player than VE. Sloosh was considered town (I believe). Mocsta was considered town. VE was not (if i remember correctly)
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On February 21 2013 16:07 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 16:07 debears wrote:On February 21 2013 16:02 yamato77 wrote:On February 21 2013 16:01 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
le wifom up in here. could be double bus could not be double bus. what do. read my case on VE, walk away with complete knowledge of his play this game and how even with the snarfs association, he's still completely mafia. Then lynch him, and scum concede. Read my case on jay, lynch jay, lynch oats, scum concede Who is third mafia? ... Lol.
Could be you by the way you are going 
Phagga's lack of posting is inclining me towards him.
So why is Jay town yamato?
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On February 21 2013 16:10 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 16:08 debears wrote:On February 21 2013 16:06 yamato77 wrote:
CC, THINK ABOUT THIS:
If VE is town, why would either of me or you (and Mocsta) be put up as nominations before him?
Palmar and Sloosh, two veteran players, were nominated day 2, yet the third is NOT VE, but one of the newest players, Mocsta. D4, you were put up. D6, me. Is VE really less of a threat as town then either of us? No. He's fucking mafia, and mafia aren't nominating themselves at all. Palmar is a better town player than VE. Sloosh was considered town (I believe). Mocsta was considered town. VE was not (if i remember correctly) Palmar was in more danger of getting lynched on a regular day than VE was, yet it was Palmar who went up, not VE. Plus, CC and I are still worse choices than VE if mafia is killing dangerous townies. Both of us did way more to get the only mafia lynched so far than VE did.
THE NOMINATIONS YOU MENTIONED WERE DAY 2. GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS.
You and CC were pretty confirmed after the snarfs lynch.
MAFIA CANNOT HAVE CONFIRMED TOWNIES IN THIS SETUP
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On February 21 2013 16:10 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 16:09 debears wrote:On February 21 2013 16:07 yamato77 wrote:On February 21 2013 16:07 debears wrote:On February 21 2013 16:02 yamato77 wrote:On February 21 2013 16:01 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
le wifom up in here. could be double bus could not be double bus. what do. read my case on VE, walk away with complete knowledge of his play this game and how even with the snarfs association, he's still completely mafia. Then lynch him, and scum concede. Read my case on jay, lynch jay, lynch oats, scum concede Who is third mafia? ... Lol. Could be you by the way you are going Phagga's lack of posting is inclining me towards him. So why is Jay town yamato? Put your money where your mouth is and make a case on me, bitch. Jay is town because that guy IS Best Mislynch WORLD.
That is the worst reasoning in the world.
Show me through analysis of his play
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On February 21 2013 16:13 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 16:10 yamato77 wrote:On February 21 2013 16:08 debears wrote:On February 21 2013 16:06 yamato77 wrote:
CC, THINK ABOUT THIS:
If VE is town, why would either of me or you (and Mocsta) be put up as nominations before him?
Palmar and Sloosh, two veteran players, were nominated day 2, yet the third is NOT VE, but one of the newest players, Mocsta. D4, you were put up. D6, me. Is VE really less of a threat as town then either of us? No. He's fucking mafia, and mafia aren't nominating themselves at all. Palmar is a better town player than VE. Sloosh was considered town (I believe). Mocsta was considered town. VE was not (if i remember correctly) Palmar was in more danger of getting lynched on a regular day than VE was, yet it was Palmar who went up, not VE. Plus, CC and I are still worse choices than VE if mafia is killing dangerous townies. Both of us did way more to get the only mafia lynched so far than VE did. Lol, refuted my own point.Whatever, VE should have been nominated if he was town, plain and simple. There's no good reason town VE has yet to be nominated. But he's not town, hasn't acted townie, and should die for it.
Hey, I refute my own arguments, but I'm still so obviously right!
Seriously yamato, when i go over your case in depth with the context I will show you. You better fucking read the post I make slowly and actually think.
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On February 21 2013 16:16 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 16:11 debears wrote:On February 21 2013 16:10 yamato77 wrote:On February 21 2013 16:09 debears wrote:On February 21 2013 16:07 yamato77 wrote:On February 21 2013 16:07 debears wrote:On February 21 2013 16:02 yamato77 wrote:On February 21 2013 16:01 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
le wifom up in here. could be double bus could not be double bus. what do. read my case on VE, walk away with complete knowledge of his play this game and how even with the snarfs association, he's still completely mafia. Then lynch him, and scum concede. Read my case on jay, lynch jay, lynch oats, scum concede Who is third mafia? ... Lol. Could be you by the way you are going Phagga's lack of posting is inclining me towards him. So why is Jay town yamato? Put your money where your mouth is and make a case on me, bitch. Jay is town because that guy IS Best Mislynch WORLD. That is the worst reasoning in the world. Show me through analysis of his play Jay's town meta is to look scummy, all the damn time. Analyzing his play from some objective sense of how town and mafia play does no good, because he doesn't play that way.
Scum motivation behind the posts and scummy posts are two different things
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off ta bed. Will be back tomorrow with da good stuffz
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EPT
