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On November 07 2012 07:30 Clarity_nl wrote:@ Alsn + Show Spoiler +On November 06 2012 03:00 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 02:32 Djodref wrote:
@ Clarity
Could you at least tell me when you asked marv your question ?
I'm only asking for when right now ^^ Date: 11/5/12 2:48 Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 02:29 Obzy wrote:On November 06 2012 02:13 Clarity_nl wrote:
@ Obzy
The reason I asked marv before Cheese claiming was because I noticed what Cheese did. The OP Townie does not match with the PM townie. The PM townie flavor is in every PM. How do you conclude from this that I am blue or scum? Because whether or not the text matches in the OP compared to the PM doesn't matter. I'm certain that every single person noticed this, but nobody else (has mentioned) PM'd Marv specifically asking if the VT flavor text meant VT. It seemed fairly self-explanatory. And - I was under the impression that Cheese's claim was technically when he first put Regular Fapper at the end of his post; to him [as it turned out], that was a claim to all other VTs to take notice of that would not be recognized by blue or mafia. I don't agree that Cheese's actual claim was later- it was clear to him from the beginning. That's not what I asked. I asked if everyone was aware of the VT flavor. If I'm VT -> I want to make sure if I should claim (when the time comes) Townie or Regular Fapper, and I wonder if scum/blue knows flavour. If I'm Blue -> I want to know if scum knows VT flavor, and if VT knows the rest knows flavour. If I'm Scum -> I want to know if blues know flavor, and if VT know the rest knows flavour. Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 02:29 Obzy wrote:
Don't try to convince me that you aren't scum, convince me(and everybody else) who is. Easy for you to say, there are only so many hours in a day and I spent all of mine defending myself, and still am. I was hoping today would be calmer because it's the nightcycle, but it seems people would rather push and push and push rather than collect their thoughts. Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 02:43 Djodref wrote:On November 06 2012 02:01 Clarity_nl wrote:On November 06 2012 02:00 Djodref wrote:On November 06 2012 01:52 Clarity_nl wrote:No, I tried to stop him from saying that because if he did, as town, it would be moronic. And as you pointed out, I was starting to doubt my case on debears. Do you really not see a scum motive for Cheese pointing me out as "confirmed town" Again, you seem to think I had special information after marv posted that everyone knows VT flavor, but I didn't, you were just as informed as I was. We all voted for Cheese.Town Clarity has forgot Cheese for a while No, I was just kinda busy answering 1001 questions from you and debears. I was busy defending myself. @ ClarityAre you trying to deny your responsibility in the lynch ? Daoud did not vote for Cheese because he really believed that debears was scum... I have explained my reasons for lynching Cheese. I was being stupid but at least it makes some sense. I don't understand how you could not recognize that he was town and genuinely believing in the power of the VT flavor. How could you believe he was scum ? The only reason I see is that you were mafia and too happy to see a possibility to escape your lynch to think straight. I was already safe from lynching before I switched. @ ClarityOk, that's cool, if you were safe when you switched, it's sure that your vote did not mean anything. It does mean something, but what it meant (in my eyes) was: "I'm having doubts about debears being scum, especially with the way he's reacting to all of this" Cheese looked scummiest to me at that point, and YES, it made it so that I didn't get lynched. Surprise, a 100% wrong lynch looked worse to me than the person who looked scummiest to me. (See, I can do sarcasm as well) My ambiguity is because the actual PM has quotes by marv, and will reveal my role.
@ Clarity
I found in your filter something that strongly indicates that you are VT. I don't think you can be blue.
I don't understand what you are bitching about if you are VT.
In the case I'm right and you are VT, what is your fucking reason to not reveal that you are VT ?
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EBWOP: it doesn't strongly indicate that you are VT, it strongly indicates that you are not blue...
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On November 07 2012 08:45 Obzy wrote:
Oh, sorry. I meant - I think that Clarity is aware that his case is incorrect. I knew he'd vote immediately after I pointed it out, it would be utterly insane to not do so (and indeed, he does so within a minute or so). But if you spend the time to put up a big case, why wouldn't you vote with it, unless you've already voted? Posting a case should mean that you're so convinced that you are willing to put yourself in the spotlight and ready to defend your opinion.
But he didn't vote? I don't like the word "scumslip", but voting sure is a thing to forget in your case >_>; IMO. He even took the time for nice formatting and font coloring.
My wording above (that you quoted) is poor, I noticed it after posting but didn't really want to post an EBWOP. I definitely don't think Clarity is town due to the lack of voting, I meant to show that he seemed insincere in calling me Mafia since he didn't actually post a vote. If that makes sense ^^
@ Obzy
That's not a good point at all. Mafia players and town players forget to vote all the time. It's not alignment indicative.
Please be nice with Clarity and discuss with him by the way, we don't know for sure that he is mafia...
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On November 07 2012 08:46 Clarity_nl wrote:
What the fuck, you've been saying I'm blue or scum for the last 30 hours.
I'm being vague, and continue being vague, because it might entice scum to NK me, if I ever get out of your 24/7 scope.
Claiming does nothing for me.
That's why I want to see you dead.
Some things point in direction that you are not blue, some things point in direction that you are not VT.
Conclusion -> you are scum
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On November 07 2012 08:46 Clarity_nl wrote:
What the fuck, you've been saying I'm blue or scum for the last 30 hours.
I'm being vague, and continue being vague, because it might entice scum to NK me, if I ever get out of your 24/7 scope.
Claiming does nothing for me.
@ Clarity
Well, claiming could maybe save you. If people believe your claim, that is...
If you are town and blue, the sooner you claim, the more time you have to show everybody the truth of your claim.
If you are town and VT, I don't understand why you would not have already claimed it already.
I'm sorry to tell you this, but the longer you take to claim, the more it makes you red, at least in my eyes...
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On November 07 2012 09:07 Clarity_nl wrote:
You just said the same thing 4 different ways and I still don't understand.
I don't have a claim that would make me look more like town, isn't that obvious from the fact that I haven't claimed?
@ Clarity
In this case, you have no choice but to go the scumhunt way.
But I want to warn everyone against a last minute blue claim. In my eyes, a last minute blue claim from Clarity would be a fakeclaim !
On top on not really showing a town behavior, I think there is a hole in your 'PM to marv" story, but I don't know where is the hole exactly yet. I have arguments against a VT Clarity and I have arguments against a blue Clarity. I don't understand why you are not giving me the info to allow me to attack you so that you can defend yourself properly...
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@ Alsn
Ok, I understand, but I don't want to see last minute shenanigans. That's all...
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I'm not going to tell you where is the hole in your argument beforehand !
Anyway, did you find more things on Obzy ? Are you convinced he is the right target for today ?
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On November 07 2012 09:21 Rad wrote:
@djo
Do you not realize that he just claimed?
I don't want no hints. He already gave me an headache during N1.
Hints are giving him room for later...
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On November 07 2012 08:57 Obzy wrote:Bleh. I had typed up a response to your post, Djo, but accidentally closed the tab  I don't want to retype it; but basically, I don't really understand why you'd want me to rationally discuss with Clarity when you intend to lynch him. I'm gonna post what I wrote so far (It's a long filter analysis up until about where Djo starts attacking Clarity). + Show Spoiler +Okay so I'm typing this in a text file so if the formatting is stupid I apologize in advance lol. (sorry for the lol, da0ud ^^) With regards to Clarity and why he is scum: I am going to spoiler this because I'm basically just going through his filter point by point and taking things that I can comment on. + Show Spoiler +I think the two things to take away from all this though:
- Debears defended Cheese
- Djodref tunneling Cheese All three of these people are town. Just as a side note. (If somebody would like my thoughts on Djo's JK claim, I can deliver.) Last three pages was djo, you and me. Still no word from da0ud and sylver.
I think you are wrong in saying Obzy is useless. He might not have posted a lot but he makes good points or asks decent questions when he does, maybe you feel that way because he's biggest post is directed at you? This was in response to debears asking Clar if anything stood out as weird - I don't really think it's particularly important, but I thought it funny that he commented he didn't think I was useless at that time period. [With regards to Clar's list of reads] Considered Djo slightly scum, null on deb, null on Cheese. Slightly town on myself. So with all that said, I only have two slight scumreads on Alsn and Djo, I am no longer suspect of Alsn, at least not as much. Although he seems to have a hard on for debears and djo he's making decent points and trying to further conversation. Cool, so Alsn was down with debears and Djo. Mental note I guess. Cautions Rad about the perils of not having any reads - Ehn Comments at 16:22 Nov4 that he'll be making a case (or multiple) that day, to Djo. Specifically namedrops Hapa and comments he'll ignore the advice people follow, taking issue with its quality. (Apologizes later.) (In a response to Djo): On November 04 2012 17:20 Clarity_nl wrote:
Top 3 choices in my eyes are Debears, Sylver and you.
As for people who haven't answered my questions: Alsn, Cheese, Sylver. I'll have to look and see if he pushes Sylver at all. He mentions Cheese not looking scummy ~16ish hours before the deadline. Posts a defense from debears' post. On November 05 2012 02:54 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 02:49 Djodref wrote:On November 05 2012 02:44 Rad wrote:On November 05 2012 02:41 Djodref wrote:
So it means that you have confirmation bias against me. You don't want to give me a chance to defend myself, you have already made up your mind and you want to see me dead.
It means that you are now 100% convinced that I am scum (in the case where you are town) which is stupid because I am not scum and townies should always keep their mind open or that you are scum yourself. Lol djo... you realize you just said "your argument is stupid because I'm not scum." Honestly I would be pissed off if Clarity is town and do not want to discuss his case against me beforehand because he is afraid that I could talk my way out of the lynch. I don't understand why a townie would want to see me dead so much. If you are town you can talk your way out of a lynch regardless. It's not like I would've posted my case an hour beforehand, right about now is when I would've posted it. I am currently working on a different case while also answering questions, so please bear with me. I will keep djo's case on hand in case I get lynched. I will post it before the deadline if it seems I'll die. Otherwise saving it for D2 Okay so apparently he had planned on posting a case on Djo today. That obviously will not occur unless da0ud claims JK or something, but w/e. I find the line "If you are town you can talk your way out of a lynch regardless" somewhat amusing; as a side note - I don't really know if he's talking about Djo or just in general. He posts a case on debears, that looks fairly legitimate if the knowledge that debears was VT didn't exist. (Votes DB at that time) - When debears asks him to post his case on Djo, he chooses not to, largely because he intends to on Day 2 or if he is going to be lynched. He (afterwards) mentions that he doesn't want to post a case on Djo if Djo won't be there to defend himself - I really don't like this. Why would you care if the person wasn't around to defend themselves if you think they're scum? And if you don't think they're scum, why would you post a case on them? I guess he can have points for Chivalry, but I think that he didn't want to post a case because he knew Djo was town. Clar has some commentary on how staying neutral isn't bad D1, I disagree with this, but I've already covered that in this post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=379514¤tpage=40#785(It happens to be the one that I mention not feeling comfortable about voting CC - this is still taking place before debears picks up that CC is trying to claim.) Then the CC claim stuff - By this point, I had voted Clar largely due to process of elimination. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=379514¤tpage=37#730I liked Djo and debears' cases, I didn't like Clarity's case on debears, and between Clar and Sylv, I voted Clar. (I largely got my town read on db _because_ he hadn't gone and pointed out that I was sort of shitty and thus Mafia, despite having questioned me.) After CC's claim, Clarity mentioned that assumptions couldn't be made based on host behavior. This didn't make sense to me unless he was blue or scum, which he addressed later- I couldn't really find fault with that at the time, it seemed like he had just been thinking more than I had if he was VT yet asked about the VT flavor. He brings up a quote of mine telling him to convince me who _is_ scum, rather than trying to convince me that he isn't- he basically says that he's too busy defending himself to push his scumreads. On November 05 2012 09:28 Clarity_nl wrote:
I think if Cheese flips red there's no way debears is scum.... 9 player mafia and scum busses eachother day 1? No way. Given that he'd posted a case on DB, this looks relevant; but if he knew Cheese had no chance of flipping red, it doesn't hurt the fact he's only actually made a case on debears (up until this point) at all. Gets angry at CC for not defending himself (I concur with this) but then votes him for his defense being WIFOM, over his scumread of debears? _And then says, On November 05 2012 09:42 Clarity_nl wrote:
Wait, so you're voting debears to save yourself when you're VT? What the hell. Debears was his scumread and vote up until this point, and when CC changes his vote to be on Debears, he questions it. Why why why. There should be zero confusion if CC really was VT, given that he is basically agreeing with what Clarity had assumed up until this point; but once Clarity switches, he questions it. Clar mentions that the logical thing to do would be to jump on him to save himself, instead of Djo, then debears, then him. Djo is town, debears is town, ??? The comment looks like it's trying to indicate that "Clarity must be town, CC did not considering jumping onto him at first" to me. I will try to continue this later tonight, but I'm done for the moment. I'm going to catch up a few posts in the thread and then be afk for a couple of hours (until my work day ends, I get home, and I finish eating dinner) - I wanted to get my point-by-point thoughts to Alsn before he had to go to sleep.
@ Obzy
I want you to interact with him in the case where you are wrong...
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EBWOP: In the case where I am wrong
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On November 07 2012 09:26 Clarity_nl wrote:
His reaction makes me more convinced that he is scum, yes.
Are you not going to address any of the contradictions I just pointed out?
@ Clarity
I'll look at his filter very carefully when I have time at work, which is not the case right now...
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@ Clarity
Who would be Obzy partner in crime in your opinion ?
@ Rad
Y u no post cases ?
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On November 07 2012 09:50 Clarity_nl wrote:I said @ Djo...... These would be the contradictions: Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 09:21 Clarity_nl wrote:
You keep telling me to go scumhunt, and then you continuously assault me.
You told people last night that if I claimed today it would be fake. You are telling people today that any last minutes claims by me will be fake.
You are telling me to claim so you can attack me.
You KNOW there is a hole in my argument yet you CANNOT FIND IT.
Ok, I know for of fact that you are not blue, like 99,9%...
And just wanted to push you for a fake blue claim. Because I thought that was the move that you were preparing during N1 and also today. Because I don't understand what is so hard for you to say that you are VT, regardless of your alignment.
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On November 07 2012 09:46 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 09:41 Djodref wrote:
@ Clarity
Who would be Obzy partner in crime in your opinion ?
@ Rad
Y u no post cases ? I'll play this how I want to. I have no case to post right now, and defending myself all day has been exhausting. I'm waiting on da0ud's thoughts on the question I gave him.
@ Rad
So, you are not worried that we are setting up a Clarity lynch ?
You were so sure he was town. Why are you not fighting for him anymore ?
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@ Rad
I don't know, you could maybe try to find a more suitable target ?
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On November 07 2012 10:12 Clarity_nl wrote:
Djo you sure are betting a lot of town's stack on me. What if you are wrong about me and I'm blue, and I claimed because you pushed me to? Now there are two exposed blue roles and we spent 48 hours doing nothing but hunting me.
You answered your own question. It's not hard for me to claim VT, regardless of my alignment.
@ Clarity
Either you are not blue, either you lied before regarding the question you supposedly asked marv. That's a fact I know for sure.
It's quite logical from my point of view
- You are not VT because you would have already admitted it
- You are not blue or you lied in one of your post earlier regarding the question you asked marv
So you are scum, especially when you add on top of it that your general behavior is lacking of townie traits.
I would reconsider the possibility of a blue Clarity if you can find the post where you lied 
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On November 07 2012 10:22 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 10:20 Djodref wrote:
@ Rad
I don't know, you could maybe try to find a more suitable target ? Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 09:46 Rad wrote:On November 07 2012 09:41 Djodref wrote:
@ Clarity
Who would be Obzy partner in crime in your opinion ?
@ Rad
Y u no post cases ? I'll play this how I want to. I have no case to post right now, and defending myself all day has been exhausting. I'm waiting on da0ud's thoughts on the question I gave him. Shit just goes in circles with you. It's truly exhausting.
@ Rad
Ok, play the way you want, but please understand that from my point of view, it comes off as really weird that you are not panicking somehow and that is looks ok for you to wait for a while.
On the other hand, I'm also exhausted, so I'll give you a break. I'm sorry ^^
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On November 07 2012 10:37 Clarity_nl wrote:
It's weird that he's not panicking?
I refuse to acknowledge any of your points as I've been over all of them before.
The only new thing you said was that you claim I lied in one of my posts, yet instead of convincing people, you try to send me on a wild goose hunt.
@ Clarity
Because I think there is a slight possibility for you to be a bad and stubborn VT. If you were blue with the same information that I have, you would better understand my position
After all, all this game is about is information ^^
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On November 07 2012 11:01 Clarity_nl wrote:
Just because you've consistently shown to not read my posts or outright ignore them: if this is about why I asked for blue flavor, I already answered that.
I'll write my final case against you when I can...
I don't want to discuss with you anymore, I've definitively taken my decision for today and I'm not going to move from it.
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EPT
