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On November 06 2012 06:49 thrawn2112 wrote:
the mylo status is completely dependent on there being a sk right? and no vig claim = sk? any vig that wants to make sure we know if we're not in mylo?
With HiroPro's explanation we are not in mylo regardless of the SK being present or not.
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Hrmmm, anybody else feel Hopeless1der's absense is particularly telling at this time?
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Yeah, easy there  However, I do need to head home. Hopefully I'll be there for the lynch.
For the moment, I have to admit that Prom is putting up one hell of a fight and I am feeling his lynch less and less. The bit where he prevents Kush from shitting up the thread is bugging me. Hopeless1der, however...
Lets add to my previous case: he's gone afk again. Does not seem to care 2 hoots about who gets lynched. Prom clearly does. My earlier accusation that he was trying to make anything stick as long as it wasn't him can equally be explained that he really cares about lynching scum.
Give me some time to think about this. But what do you (everybody) think of Hopeless1der? My earlier case generated very little attention. Let me repeat it:
On November 05 2012 23:54 Acrofales wrote:Not much to go on for Hopeless1der. I will thus make the case both ways, as I did for Muso. On Muso I felt the town case was stronger (as I said at the time). This time I am leaning towards scum: The case for Hopeless1derThe scum mindsetShow nested quote +On November 01 2012 10:49 Hopeless1der wrote:<snip> On November 01 2012 10:47 kushm4sta wrote:On November 01 2012 10:30 Release wrote:On November 01 2012 10:17 thrawn2112 wrote:On November 01 2012 10:09 Release wrote: I highly doubt that you "mixed up" their names because things like that tend to get checked, which leads me to believe you said such things on purpose. and I highly doubt you would actually think this I was confused about whom we wanted to claim and which each were. So i checked the OP and the thing Hope posted and asked for clarification. Kush posted things based on a misunderstanding and i don't understand why he would not check the OP or ask for clarification. I mean, in Hope's post-quote, there was clearly a miller AND a mason. So it appears that Kush is setting himself up for a defense ( as I have said), and overeager to contribute. I guess you have never played with me before. Most of the time I don't think before I post and I'm quite capable of derps as town. About your suspicion of me: Let me get this straight. You think my scumplan was to convince the masons to claim then cover my ass by pretending I mixed up masons and millers? That does not sound like a realistic scumplan! I grudgingly agree that kush derps pretty consistently. Why grudgingly? Why would a townie grudgingly admit to knowing something about a fellow townie that exculpates him. Would this not be a good thing? However, from a scum viewpoint, it makes sense: he does not want to admit that Kush derps pretty consistently, but feels compelled by the general direction of the game, and the need to make a good impression at the start of it to grudgingly admit to this information. Regarding Muso: Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 03:20 Hopeless1der wrote:Okay, ignoring the possibility of two mason pairs: I could actually quote every single one of Muso's posts to help make my point... - He "lied" about his game history + Show Spoiler +On November 01 2012 13:25 Muso wrote:
Oh sorry guys I didn't know there was a difference between Mason and Miller.
I know I said I'd played hundreds of mafia games before but I actually lied just to get in to the game. This is my first one, but I watched a few youtube videos so I thin I get it.
Sorry if I'm bad :S - He "lied" about reading the game setup + Show Spoiler +On November 01 2012 13:25 Muso wrote:
Oh sorry guys I didn't know there was a difference between Mason and Miller.
I know I said I'd played hundreds of mafia games before but I actually lied just to get in to the game. This is my first one, but I watched a few youtube videos so I thin I get it.
Sorry if I'm bad :S On November 01 2012 13:41 Muso wrote:
I am a mason, I didn't know there was a miller too Are the lies because he's new and quite frankly, stupid? Or because his fake-claim was TERRIBLE and he's banking on the pity card to save him somehow? ##Vote: MusoAcro has provided an encrypted 'claim post' and I don't see the benefit to a 1-1 trade if Acro was scum. This situation makes way more sense if Acro is telling the truth. Technically, 2 mason pairs is possible, but quite frankly I think we're going to be lynching Muso regardless now, even if a "partner" claims. His filter is just too wrong for me to be willing to let him live.
Here is what I would suggest: Muso, if you are in fact a mason, write a last will for your partner to use to confirm themselves. Muso's Partner - Unless you think you can save him, do not claim until after the 1hr resolution period starts at the end of the night phase. There is no good reason to out yourself before that time (unless you can save him).
Could someone comment on that suggestion, and perhaps if they would even believe someone claiming to be Muso's mason-partner? I really don't think revealing the other halves is a good idea right now. At this point all Muso had done wrong, as far as anybody knew was lie about his experience in the game. If a mason claimed to be his partner, then his claim would be more believable than mine. However, hopeless wants to go ahead and lynch him REGARDLESS of any further developments. Now, hopeless may be a townie making an error of judgement and believing my claim unconditionally. However, at this point I see no real reason to say we should lynch Muso regardless unless you're scum and want to push strongly for that townie lynch. At this point, my claim was by far the more believable one (as evidenced by everybody voting Muso), so he picked Muso to bandwagon on, rather than me. Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 01:05 Hopeless1der wrote:<snip> On November 03 2012 00:52 kushm4sta wrote:On November 03 2012 00:31 thrawn2112 wrote:
kush i cant believe you're trying to make d1 cases based on the flavor claimed by two people... just absurd It's not just based on 2 people claims. It's based on the lack of claim from ALL the vts, AND the claims of two people. Acro seems really upset by my theory. drazzak, acro, and thrawn have all shat on my theory now. Why don't you guys actually EXPLAIN why it's such a bad idea instead of just SAYING it's bad. Do you really believe that all VTs have non character role names except for one named Jessica Rabbit. I do not believe that is likely. He only ever claimed NOT Mason. Granted, green text, but that's inconclusive. However, the reason I think your theory is bad is that I think scum have fakeclaims. My question never got answered and I think it's clear that Hiro was replying to the posts I quoted. Suspicious minds would say that you are paying way too close attention to the wording and that you are, in fact, bluehunting. I thought this was worth mentioning, because the tone rubbed me the wrong way at the time. I am still not quite sure why though. If I had to say, it is because Hopeless seems to be puzzling rather hard over whether my claim means I'm claiming VT or not. Something townies shouldn't be worried about (except that Kush got everybody riled up about it). The OMGUSShow nested quote +On November 03 2012 01:57 Hopeless1der wrote:On November 03 2012 01:34 Muso wrote:It's 3am here and I doubt I'll be awake for the end of day. It doesn't look like Promethelax is coming, and unfortunately lynching him is the only viable option here. Some of you believe otherwise, and I can't stop you. I urge you to trust Acro though (at least for today). He makes sense. If the lynch on me does go through, I implicitly urge you to revisit these last 6 hrs and look at players who were opposed to shifting attention off of me. Hopeless1der is one such player. If in the future Promethelax rolls town, I highly suggest interrogating Hopeless1der. In fact this kind of resistance just strengthens the case against Promethelax. On November 03 2012 01:05 Hopeless1der wrote:Promethelax hasn't checked in yet, but even if it was still prplhz in the game I'd rather lynch Muso. I find his noob act highly incriminating. He knew what he was doing when he fakeclaimed and tried to weasel his way out by playing stupid at first. When that didn't work, he tries to pass it off as a gambit to lure scum NK fire. He keeps putting up more smoke and mirrors every time his last plan didn't work. I'm not comfortable leaving that kind of player around. I'm leaving my vote as it is.
I sincerely hope I get to revisit this post on Day 2, and if I don't please somebody else do it for me. Hopeless1der cannot be trusted. ##vote Promethelax This post just strengthens my resolve to lynch you Muso. "If in the future Promethelax rolls town, I highly suggest interrogating Hopeless1der." In this scenario, I'm scum for NOT wanting to lynch a townie. Please clarify what you mean if you're still around. Now I think that Muso did not word himself properly here, but his main point was that hopeless1der was unwilling to even consider the possibility that Muso was town. Hopeless skipped right over that part and made a jump of bad logic: Muso knows he'll flip town and is talking about AFTER his death, when everybody else will know he flipped town too. He thinks Prom is scum and Hopeless is trying to keep the lynch focused on Muso to protect his scumbuddy. However, regardless of what Prom flips, he urges us to look into Hopeless. The mere fact that Hopeless is unwilling to consider a town Muso is what he is finding scummy. This is indeed scummy behaviour. Hopeless' way of dealing with this is to discredit it and OMGUS someone who is already about to die anyway. He shows absolutely NO willingness to even consider the possibility that Muso is town. That may be because he already knows Muso is town and he has absolutely no reason to reconsider his thoughts given the rather large amounts of new information. The lurkAfter 18 hours of inactivity (all through the night, I might add, which is when scum is busy deciding whom to shoot in their own little QT) we get: Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 01:33 Hopeless1der wrote:
My activity is bad and I should feel bad. Reading Prom, Acro and risk.nuke's filters first, as they're being angry with one another. This is an utterly useless post, which just emphasizes his lurkiness. I don't see this as "too bold to be scum". People had noticed his absense and were commenting on it. He needed to say something about it. This is all we get. Since then his activity has been limited to a rather bad meta-case against Promethelax, and a throwaway statement that he wants to lynch Drazak. If anything they feel like testers: if somebody bites and starts ramping up a case against Release or Drazak, he is ready to jump on it. However, he is completely noncommittal and happy to do no scumhunting of his own. This also ties into his earlier behaviour (see below): he showed commitment and activity in the game, but once people started reading him as town (me in my night post, for instance), he dropped off the map. Also, lets not forget Mattchew[/green's opinion. Mattchew is actually a pretty good scumhunter, despite him claiming otherwise, and it is always a good idea to listen to what he says (although moreso when he's scum  ) Show nested quote +
I think hopeless has a pretty decent chance of flipping scum. His posts are long but usually contain a lot of summary with very little opinion on a lot of things, and barely any thought process sharing
The case for Hopeless1derKeeping discussion from derailingShow nested quote +On November 03 2012 01:05 Hopeless1der wrote:On November 03 2012 00:15 kushm4sta wrote:
I don't want to lynch either muso or prpl.
Prpl was mislynched as town in his last several games. He looks very scummy as town. So keep that in mind.
Your case on him is very bas. The only scummy thing is giving a bunch of town reads which isn't that scummy.
So what if he thought there was 2 mason pairs. Not everyone knows the probability of that. Also I thought the same thing.
Muso, I think it would be very hard for scum to come up with that vt role name. Review the spoiler. Information is deliberately missing. I don't know how "hard" it would be for scum to come up with a VT name. <snip> Why would scum be afraid of kush running rampant with his crazy theory. Fake claming seems particularly easy.. and all that is needed to placate Kush is a silly VT claim like Paint Bucket or Boulder if push really comes to shove and town starts mass claiming. And that's assuming scum isn't given a list of safeclaims in the first place (a fairly common thing for normal games). However, as town, this whole discussion was a giant distraction from what we should have been doing: scumhunting. Hopeless seems to be trying to keep the town on track. Keeping promisesToo often scum make a promise to be active and then forget about it. It's one of the things I like to look for when reading filters. Hopeless makes a promise and delivers on it. This put him on my town list initially, as it shows a certain consistency. Not a big tell, though, especially given his later behaviour. See above. + Show Spoiler [Hopeless1der's promise] +On November 01 2012 12:19 Hopeless1der wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 12:09 Release wrote:On November 01 2012 11:26 Mattchew wrote:
release what do you think of zealos's posts First post agrees with the general consensus. Has a point in that he can't be blamed for not agreeing. Second post reinforces the miller not mason claim. Clarifies part of the problem. Third post seems to allude to that fact that he thinks I'm town or that my posts are insignificant. If he had posted something more, i would think of it as "there are more important things to do" but he has yet to make a further contribution. I honestly have no idea what he trying to do with this post because his filter is rather meager, so this doesn't seem like fluff. Zealos, please explain in detail what you mean by this post because there seems to be ambiguity surrounding it. _____________________________________________ Personally, i'd like to hear from someone who has not yet posted to get another perspective on this, and the case on me. Well, I haven't properly commented on you yet Release. Based on what I've seen, really scummy push against kush. However, I'm going to read those newbie games you posted seeing as I was in two of them and then come back to this. We'll see how some meta analysis holds up. Also, I doubt I get that done tonight since I need to be up really early for work; Going to bed in a bit so I'll post my findings in an approximate 15 hours from now. 15 hours later: On November 02 2012 02:56 Hopeless1der wrote:Release's first game ever on TL, opening post[green] Town: + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 08:44 Mordanis wrote:
So my last game began with a discussion of whether to vote or not that wasn't very productive. We got lucky and scored a good D1 lynch, but it felt very, well, luck based. So I'll start this out by saying that if we don't lynch today, we'll probably be in a really shitty situation. In short, I am for a vote today. Also, it's good to be working together with Golden again! For Liquidia!
Is this day cycle going to be an extra couple of hours? I only ask because it was in my first game and I'd like to make sure what the situation is. Thanks You say that you are for a vote, but you state that your other vote was luck based. Considering you said "very luck based", doesn't that mean to say that we are not going to experience the same luck? If we don't experience the same luck, we will very much end up lynching a townie, which makes your "for a vote" seem like you want to lynch a townie. Also, why are you talking about the last game? You should be more concerned with this game and find out ways for pointing out scum rather than ways not to. This seems more like filler. The useful part of your post can be summarized by: We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental. ##FOS: Mordanis Fairly similar to his attack on kush this game.
2nd game Town, he spends most of the game tunneling grush. Way more 1-liners, inconclusive to the current situation
3rd game Vig, he gets in my face pretty early, but generally tried to keep talking. Also cited activity issues due to school?
4th game Town, + Show Spoiler +On July 05 2012 08:58 Release wrote:I think YourHarry is Grush's new alias. Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 06:39 Lazermonkey wrote:
YOYO GUYS. I AM Vanilla Townie
On a more serious note, we want this ship rollin' as fast as possible. Discussing policy is not scumhunting but it does at least help us get the discussion going. First off, something we want to avoid as town is Vanillas claiming blue roles. In both my last game and Newbie Mini Mafia XVIII there were Vanillas who claimed blue roles(DTs). Both times town ended in an bad spot (although not as bad as it could've been due to luck). But this should still be avoided at all costs as it can cause massive damage to town. Why? Well let's say a vanilla townie claims DT, and then the real DT claims because the vanilla is lying. As it doesn't make sense for vanillas to claim blue roles, we must assume that one of theese players is scum and the other one is the real DT.Two following scenarios can occur here
1). The townie gets lynched. which means that the other person is probebly the real DT, this must however not be true.
2). The DT gets lynched, which means that the vanilla townie will 100% get lynched the next day.
While 2 is far worse than 1 they are still both very bad for town. There really isn't a situation you want to fakeclaim as a townie. If you don't agree with this please let me know. If noone disagrees I will assume that no townie is ever fake claiming a blue role. Obviously there are situations where you might want to claim as blue.
I will also copy a part of my first post from my last game(where I was DT) since I am lazy.
Regarding lynches: I really really dislike nolynching for three reasons.
1. because the information that we are able to get out of it is very limited. Yes, we avoid a potential misslynch but on the other hand scum will score a more or less a free-kill during night. Essentially, we are back on D1 but this time we are in a 6-2 instead of a 7-2.
2. If we agree to nolynch then what is there to discuss? It's like asking for people to lurk even more.
3. With no vigilante in the game the only way we can win is to lynch scum. Kinda obvious but still.
We require 5+ votes in order to get a lynch done. With that in mind I hope that people are willing to vote for someone who isn't their top 1 scum. Obviously, if you REALLY don't think there is any chance that the person that is about to be lynched can be scum, then sure, don't vote him. But if it seems like your target hardly gets any votes and your second highest scumread is at 4 votes with 30 minutes untill deadline, then I think you should swap your vote onto him.
Lurkers!: There are two types of lurkers. The ones who doesn't post anything and the sneaky ones, who posts ALOT but nothing of value. The first category could either be bad town play or scum play. But the second category is almost exclusivly scum play. If you are a townie, speak your mind, don't make a super duper long post when you could've said it on just a few lines. Keep it simple. With that being said, post!
Ignoring the copy-pasted policy stuff for now, Why on earth did you even post that scenario stuff about a VT fake-claiming a DT or blue? There was absolutely no indication that anyone had even planned on that (especially considering you had the first post). If anything, you have just shown people something they can do (to the detriment of the town). And why go through the casework? It's just fluff and you know it. This is very much a post looking like a contribution, while being a non-contribution, or even an anti-contribution. Im pretty sure, again, that no one was even remotely close to voting in a way to force a nolynch. I love the bolded line; you could have kept this post simple and concise. But you decided to make it "super-duper long." ##vote: LazermonkeyYourharry, you should do more than OMGUS. You are definitely rivaling, for scumminess, against lazer. Fos: yourharry
Fos: lazermonkey Keep in mind, he's already spent a game tunneling grush, from what I can tell, it was related to fake-claims. Opens with hostility and a vote.
To be fair, I don't think he's ever rolled scum, but his jumping out of the gate fighting looks like hes town yet again. He's never played with kush before. He also explained that he expects people to NOT derp all over the thread when they post here: + Show Spoiler +On November 01 2012 10:09 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 09:05 kushm4sta wrote:On November 01 2012 09:01 Release wrote:
EBWOP: those are three separate ideas, although kushmasta is looking scummy for both trying to change who should claim and being deceitful about it. I'm not being deceitful about it, I just got their names mixed up. I think they should probably both claim actually. @releaseAre you suggesting that I'm trying to trick power roles like vig, dt, etc into mass claiming? Are millers' true alignment revealed upon death? well, you were assigning Mason traits to the miller, which led to the confusion that it did between who should claim. Also, you didn't mention mason but the "town who can talk to each other." You avoided saying mason. Mason is clear. "town who can talk to each other" could be mason, but could be miller if someone assumed you were talking about who YOU thought "could talk to each other." Mafia is a game in which posts can't be editted. People tend to check their posts for any dubious or tentative information. I highly doubt that you "mixed up" their names because things like that tend to get checked, which leads me to believe you said such things on purpose.I wasn't talking about the mass claim. That was rather obvious. (seebolded) Sadly, kush is unable to meet that requirement. My "meta" read is that this strong aggression is in fact representative of town release. Keeping in mind that there are no scum games to compare with, I'm not willing to vote Release for his posts against kush. i also agree with this from Zealos: Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 01:41 Zealos wrote:
--SNIP--
That being said, I do think releases later posts have a townie attitude about them. He is saying what he appears to think without hiding anything or pushing a mafia agenda as far as I can tell.
--SNIP--
I think I have a handle on this mason claim shitfest. I'm rereading this through more carefully because I just kind of glanced the thread over, but I think I'm going to be voting Muso in a moment. Incidentally, I also liked the content of this post as it agreed rather largely with what I found based on Release's meta. However, scum has an easy time making town reads look right, because they already know that the player is town.
He responded. That can be found in his filter, which is short and I urge you to read in any case.
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On November 06 2012 06:59 drazak wrote:I tried to call nuke out for it and nobody listened to me 
I keep thinking the same thing you do. And then he makes another post that puts him back on my town list. He might be playing scum like Mattchew does, though. Aggressive, abrupt and decisive. I don't know his scum meta well enough to say anything much more about it.
I don't think risk.nuke is a good lynch candidate for today, though.
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On November 06 2012 07:02 kushm4sta wrote:
dp sprung to action as soon as the bandwagon on him was forming in him. That is scum lurking.
Not if he said BEFOREHAND that he was going to sleep and would wake up for the last few hours before the deadline. Shit people, stop jumping at shadows when the answer has already been given.
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On November 06 2012 07:05 Promethelax wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 06 2012 07:01 Acrofales wrote:Yeah, easy there However, I do need to head home. Hopefully I'll be there for the lynch. For the moment, I have to admit that Prom is putting up one hell of a fight and I am feeling his lynch less and less. The bit where he prevents Kush from shitting up the thread is bugging me. Hopeless1der, however... Lets add to my previous case: he's gone afk again. Does not seem to care 2 hoots about who gets lynched. Prom clearly does. My earlier accusation that he was trying to make anything stick as long as it wasn't him can equally be explained that he really cares about lynching scum. Give me some time to think about this. But what do you (everybody) think of Hopeless1der? My earlier case generated very little attention. Let me repeat it: Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 23:54 Acrofales wrote:Not much to go on for Hopeless1der. I will thus make the case both ways, as I did for Muso. On Muso I felt the town case was stronger (as I said at the time). This time I am leaning towards scum: The case for Hopeless1derThe scum mindsetOn November 01 2012 10:49 Hopeless1der wrote:<snip> On November 01 2012 10:47 kushm4sta wrote:On November 01 2012 10:30 Release wrote:On November 01 2012 10:17 thrawn2112 wrote:On November 01 2012 10:09 Release wrote: I highly doubt that you "mixed up" their names because things like that tend to get checked, which leads me to believe you said such things on purpose. and I highly doubt you would actually think this I was confused about whom we wanted to claim and which each were. So i checked the OP and the thing Hope posted and asked for clarification. Kush posted things based on a misunderstanding and i don't understand why he would not check the OP or ask for clarification. I mean, in Hope's post-quote, there was clearly a miller AND a mason. So it appears that Kush is setting himself up for a defense ( as I have said), and overeager to contribute. I guess you have never played with me before. Most of the time I don't think before I post and I'm quite capable of derps as town. About your suspicion of me: Let me get this straight. You think my scumplan was to convince the masons to claim then cover my ass by pretending I mixed up masons and millers? That does not sound like a realistic scumplan! I grudgingly agree that kush derps pretty consistently. Why grudgingly? Why would a townie grudgingly admit to knowing something about a fellow townie that exculpates him. Would this not be a good thing? However, from a scum viewpoint, it makes sense: he does not want to admit that Kush derps pretty consistently, but feels compelled by the general direction of the game, and the need to make a good impression at the start of it to grudgingly admit to this information. Regarding Muso: On November 02 2012 03:20 Hopeless1der wrote:Okay, ignoring the possibility of two mason pairs: I could actually quote every single one of Muso's posts to help make my point... - He "lied" about his game history + Show Spoiler +On November 01 2012 13:25 Muso wrote:
Oh sorry guys I didn't know there was a difference between Mason and Miller.
I know I said I'd played hundreds of mafia games before but I actually lied just to get in to the game. This is my first one, but I watched a few youtube videos so I thin I get it.
Sorry if I'm bad :S - He "lied" about reading the game setup + Show Spoiler +On November 01 2012 13:25 Muso wrote:
Oh sorry guys I didn't know there was a difference between Mason and Miller.
I know I said I'd played hundreds of mafia games before but I actually lied just to get in to the game. This is my first one, but I watched a few youtube videos so I thin I get it.
Sorry if I'm bad :S On November 01 2012 13:41 Muso wrote:
I am a mason, I didn't know there was a miller too Are the lies because he's new and quite frankly, stupid? Or because his fake-claim was TERRIBLE and he's banking on the pity card to save him somehow? ##Vote: MusoAcro has provided an encrypted 'claim post' and I don't see the benefit to a 1-1 trade if Acro was scum. This situation makes way more sense if Acro is telling the truth. Technically, 2 mason pairs is possible, but quite frankly I think we're going to be lynching Muso regardless now, even if a "partner" claims. His filter is just too wrong for me to be willing to let him live.
Here is what I would suggest: Muso, if you are in fact a mason, write a last will for your partner to use to confirm themselves. Muso's Partner - Unless you think you can save him, do not claim until after the 1hr resolution period starts at the end of the night phase. There is no good reason to out yourself before that time (unless you can save him).
Could someone comment on that suggestion, and perhaps if they would even believe someone claiming to be Muso's mason-partner? I really don't think revealing the other halves is a good idea right now. At this point all Muso had done wrong, as far as anybody knew was lie about his experience in the game. If a mason claimed to be his partner, then his claim would be more believable than mine. However, hopeless wants to go ahead and lynch him REGARDLESS of any further developments. Now, hopeless may be a townie making an error of judgement and believing my claim unconditionally. However, at this point I see no real reason to say we should lynch Muso regardless unless you're scum and want to push strongly for that townie lynch. At this point, my claim was by far the more believable one (as evidenced by everybody voting Muso), so he picked Muso to bandwagon on, rather than me. On November 03 2012 01:05 Hopeless1der wrote:<snip> On November 03 2012 00:52 kushm4sta wrote:On November 03 2012 00:31 thrawn2112 wrote:
kush i cant believe you're trying to make d1 cases based on the flavor claimed by two people... just absurd It's not just based on 2 people claims. It's based on the lack of claim from ALL the vts, AND the claims of two people. Acro seems really upset by my theory. drazzak, acro, and thrawn have all shat on my theory now. Why don't you guys actually EXPLAIN why it's such a bad idea instead of just SAYING it's bad. Do you really believe that all VTs have non character role names except for one named Jessica Rabbit. I do not believe that is likely. He only ever claimed NOT Mason. Granted, green text, but that's inconclusive. However, the reason I think your theory is bad is that I think scum have fakeclaims. My question never got answered and I think it's clear that Hiro was replying to the posts I quoted. Suspicious minds would say that you are paying way too close attention to the wording and that you are, in fact, bluehunting. I thought this was worth mentioning, because the tone rubbed me the wrong way at the time. I am still not quite sure why though. If I had to say, it is because Hopeless seems to be puzzling rather hard over whether my claim means I'm claiming VT or not. Something townies shouldn't be worried about (except that Kush got everybody riled up about it). The OMGUSOn November 03 2012 01:57 Hopeless1der wrote:On November 03 2012 01:34 Muso wrote:It's 3am here and I doubt I'll be awake for the end of day. It doesn't look like Promethelax is coming, and unfortunately lynching him is the only viable option here. Some of you believe otherwise, and I can't stop you. I urge you to trust Acro though (at least for today). He makes sense. If the lynch on me does go through, I implicitly urge you to revisit these last 6 hrs and look at players who were opposed to shifting attention off of me. Hopeless1der is one such player. If in the future Promethelax rolls town, I highly suggest interrogating Hopeless1der. In fact this kind of resistance just strengthens the case against Promethelax. On November 03 2012 01:05 Hopeless1der wrote:Promethelax hasn't checked in yet, but even if it was still prplhz in the game I'd rather lynch Muso. I find his noob act highly incriminating. He knew what he was doing when he fakeclaimed and tried to weasel his way out by playing stupid at first. When that didn't work, he tries to pass it off as a gambit to lure scum NK fire. He keeps putting up more smoke and mirrors every time his last plan didn't work. I'm not comfortable leaving that kind of player around. I'm leaving my vote as it is.
I sincerely hope I get to revisit this post on Day 2, and if I don't please somebody else do it for me. Hopeless1der cannot be trusted. ##vote Promethelax This post just strengthens my resolve to lynch you Muso. "If in the future Promethelax rolls town, I highly suggest interrogating Hopeless1der." In this scenario, I'm scum for NOT wanting to lynch a townie. Please clarify what you mean if you're still around. Now I think that Muso did not word himself properly here, but his main point was that hopeless1der was unwilling to even consider the possibility that Muso was town. Hopeless skipped right over that part and made a jump of bad logic: Muso knows he'll flip town and is talking about AFTER his death, when everybody else will know he flipped town too. He thinks Prom is scum and Hopeless is trying to keep the lynch focused on Muso to protect his scumbuddy. However, regardless of what Prom flips, he urges us to look into Hopeless. The mere fact that Hopeless is unwilling to consider a town Muso is what he is finding scummy. This is indeed scummy behaviour. Hopeless' way of dealing with this is to discredit it and OMGUS someone who is already about to die anyway. He shows absolutely NO willingness to even consider the possibility that Muso is town. That may be because he already knows Muso is town and he has absolutely no reason to reconsider his thoughts given the rather large amounts of new information. The lurkAfter 18 hours of inactivity (all through the night, I might add, which is when scum is busy deciding whom to shoot in their own little QT) we get: On November 05 2012 01:33 Hopeless1der wrote:
My activity is bad and I should feel bad. Reading Prom, Acro and risk.nuke's filters first, as they're being angry with one another. This is an utterly useless post, which just emphasizes his lurkiness. I don't see this as "too bold to be scum". People had noticed his absense and were commenting on it. He needed to say something about it. This is all we get. Since then his activity has been limited to a rather bad meta-case against Promethelax, and a throwaway statement that he wants to lynch Drazak. If anything they feel like testers: if somebody bites and starts ramping up a case against Release or Drazak, he is ready to jump on it. However, he is completely noncommittal and happy to do no scumhunting of his own. This also ties into his earlier behaviour (see below): he showed commitment and activity in the game, but once people started reading him as town (me in my night post, for instance), he dropped off the map. Also, lets not forget Mattchew[/green's opinion. Mattchew is actually a pretty good scumhunter, despite him claiming otherwise, and it is always a good idea to listen to what he says (although moreso when he's scum )
I think hopeless has a pretty decent chance of flipping scum. His posts are long but usually contain a lot of summary with very little opinion on a lot of things, and barely any thought process sharing
The case for Hopeless1derKeeping discussion from derailingOn November 03 2012 01:05 Hopeless1der wrote:On November 03 2012 00:15 kushm4sta wrote:
I don't want to lynch either muso or prpl.
Prpl was mislynched as town in his last several games. He looks very scummy as town. So keep that in mind.
Your case on him is very bas. The only scummy thing is giving a bunch of town reads which isn't that scummy.
So what if he thought there was 2 mason pairs. Not everyone knows the probability of that. Also I thought the same thing.
Muso, I think it would be very hard for scum to come up with that vt role name. Review the spoiler. Information is deliberately missing. I don't know how "hard" it would be for scum to come up with a VT name. <snip> Why would scum be afraid of kush running rampant with his crazy theory. Fake claming seems particularly easy.. and all that is needed to placate Kush is a silly VT claim like Paint Bucket or Boulder if push really comes to shove and town starts mass claiming. And that's assuming scum isn't given a list of safeclaims in the first place (a fairly common thing for normal games). However, as town, this whole discussion was a giant distraction from what we should have been doing: scumhunting. Hopeless seems to be trying to keep the town on track. Keeping promisesToo often scum make a promise to be active and then forget about it. It's one of the things I like to look for when reading filters. Hopeless makes a promise and delivers on it. This put him on my town list initially, as it shows a certain consistency. Not a big tell, though, especially given his later behaviour. See above. + Show Spoiler [Hopeless1der's promise] +On November 01 2012 12:19 Hopeless1der wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 12:09 Release wrote:On November 01 2012 11:26 Mattchew wrote:
release what do you think of zealos's posts First post agrees with the general consensus. Has a point in that he can't be blamed for not agreeing. Second post reinforces the miller not mason claim. Clarifies part of the problem. Third post seems to allude to that fact that he thinks I'm town or that my posts are insignificant. If he had posted something more, i would think of it as "there are more important things to do" but he has yet to make a further contribution. I honestly have no idea what he trying to do with this post because his filter is rather meager, so this doesn't seem like fluff. Zealos, please explain in detail what you mean by this post because there seems to be ambiguity surrounding it. _____________________________________________ Personally, i'd like to hear from someone who has not yet posted to get another perspective on this, and the case on me. Well, I haven't properly commented on you yet Release. Based on what I've seen, really scummy push against kush. However, I'm going to read those newbie games you posted seeing as I was in two of them and then come back to this. We'll see how some meta analysis holds up. Also, I doubt I get that done tonight since I need to be up really early for work; Going to bed in a bit so I'll post my findings in an approximate 15 hours from now. 15 hours later: On November 02 2012 02:56 Hopeless1der wrote:Release's first game ever on TL, opening post[green] Town: + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 08:44 Mordanis wrote:
So my last game began with a discussion of whether to vote or not that wasn't very productive. We got lucky and scored a good D1 lynch, but it felt very, well, luck based. So I'll start this out by saying that if we don't lynch today, we'll probably be in a really shitty situation. In short, I am for a vote today. Also, it's good to be working together with Golden again! For Liquidia!
Is this day cycle going to be an extra couple of hours? I only ask because it was in my first game and I'd like to make sure what the situation is. Thanks You say that you are for a vote, but you state that your other vote was luck based. Considering you said "very luck based", doesn't that mean to say that we are not going to experience the same luck? If we don't experience the same luck, we will very much end up lynching a townie, which makes your "for a vote" seem like you want to lynch a townie. Also, why are you talking about the last game? You should be more concerned with this game and find out ways for pointing out scum rather than ways not to. This seems more like filler. The useful part of your post can be summarized by: We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental. ##FOS: Mordanis Fairly similar to his attack on kush this game.
2nd game Town, he spends most of the game tunneling grush. Way more 1-liners, inconclusive to the current situation
3rd game Vig, he gets in my face pretty early, but generally tried to keep talking. Also cited activity issues due to school?
4th game Town, + Show Spoiler +On July 05 2012 08:58 Release wrote:I think YourHarry is Grush's new alias. Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 06:39 Lazermonkey wrote:
YOYO GUYS. I AM Vanilla Townie
On a more serious note, we want this ship rollin' as fast as possible. Discussing policy is not scumhunting but it does at least help us get the discussion going. First off, something we want to avoid as town is Vanillas claiming blue roles. In both my last game and Newbie Mini Mafia XVIII there were Vanillas who claimed blue roles(DTs). Both times town ended in an bad spot (although not as bad as it could've been due to luck). But this should still be avoided at all costs as it can cause massive damage to town. Why? Well let's say a vanilla townie claims DT, and then the real DT claims because the vanilla is lying. As it doesn't make sense for vanillas to claim blue roles, we must assume that one of theese players is scum and the other one is the real DT.Two following scenarios can occur here
1). The townie gets lynched. which means that the other person is probebly the real DT, this must however not be true.
2). The DT gets lynched, which means that the vanilla townie will 100% get lynched the next day.
While 2 is far worse than 1 they are still both very bad for town. There really isn't a situation you want to fakeclaim as a townie. If you don't agree with this please let me know. If noone disagrees I will assume that no townie is ever fake claiming a blue role. Obviously there are situations where you might want to claim as blue.
I will also copy a part of my first post from my last game(where I was DT) since I am lazy.
Regarding lynches: I really really dislike nolynching for three reasons.
1. because the information that we are able to get out of it is very limited. Yes, we avoid a potential misslynch but on the other hand scum will score a more or less a free-kill during night. Essentially, we are back on D1 but this time we are in a 6-2 instead of a 7-2.
2. If we agree to nolynch then what is there to discuss? It's like asking for people to lurk even more.
3. With no vigilante in the game the only way we can win is to lynch scum. Kinda obvious but still.
We require 5+ votes in order to get a lynch done. With that in mind I hope that people are willing to vote for someone who isn't their top 1 scum. Obviously, if you REALLY don't think there is any chance that the person that is about to be lynched can be scum, then sure, don't vote him. But if it seems like your target hardly gets any votes and your second highest scumread is at 4 votes with 30 minutes untill deadline, then I think you should swap your vote onto him.
Lurkers!: There are two types of lurkers. The ones who doesn't post anything and the sneaky ones, who posts ALOT but nothing of value. The first category could either be bad town play or scum play. But the second category is almost exclusivly scum play. If you are a townie, speak your mind, don't make a super duper long post when you could've said it on just a few lines. Keep it simple. With that being said, post!
Ignoring the copy-pasted policy stuff for now, Why on earth did you even post that scenario stuff about a VT fake-claiming a DT or blue? There was absolutely no indication that anyone had even planned on that (especially considering you had the first post). If anything, you have just shown people something they can do (to the detriment of the town). And why go through the casework? It's just fluff and you know it. This is very much a post looking like a contribution, while being a non-contribution, or even an anti-contribution. Im pretty sure, again, that no one was even remotely close to voting in a way to force a nolynch. I love the bolded line; you could have kept this post simple and concise. But you decided to make it "super-duper long." ##vote: LazermonkeyYourharry, you should do more than OMGUS. You are definitely rivaling, for scumminess, against lazer. Fos: yourharry
Fos: lazermonkey Keep in mind, he's already spent a game tunneling grush, from what I can tell, it was related to fake-claims. Opens with hostility and a vote.
To be fair, I don't think he's ever rolled scum, but his jumping out of the gate fighting looks like hes town yet again. He's never played with kush before. He also explained that he expects people to NOT derp all over the thread when they post here: + Show Spoiler +On November 01 2012 10:09 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 09:05 kushm4sta wrote:On November 01 2012 09:01 Release wrote:
EBWOP: those are three separate ideas, although kushmasta is looking scummy for both trying to change who should claim and being deceitful about it. I'm not being deceitful about it, I just got their names mixed up. I think they should probably both claim actually. @releaseAre you suggesting that I'm trying to trick power roles like vig, dt, etc into mass claiming? Are millers' true alignment revealed upon death? well, you were assigning Mason traits to the miller, which led to the confusion that it did between who should claim. Also, you didn't mention mason but the "town who can talk to each other." You avoided saying mason. Mason is clear. "town who can talk to each other" could be mason, but could be miller if someone assumed you were talking about who YOU thought "could talk to each other." Mafia is a game in which posts can't be editted. People tend to check their posts for any dubious or tentative information. I highly doubt that you "mixed up" their names because things like that tend to get checked, which leads me to believe you said such things on purpose.I wasn't talking about the mass claim. That was rather obvious. (seebolded) Sadly, kush is unable to meet that requirement. My "meta" read is that this strong aggression is in fact representative of town release. Keeping in mind that there are no scum games to compare with, I'm not willing to vote Release for his posts against kush. i also agree with this from Zealos: Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 01:41 Zealos wrote:
--SNIP--
That being said, I do think releases later posts have a townie attitude about them. He is saying what he appears to think without hiding anything or pushing a mafia agenda as far as I can tell.
--SNIP--
I think I have a handle on this mason claim shitfest. I'm rereading this through more carefully because I just kind of glanced the thread over, but I think I'm going to be voting Muso in a moment. Incidentally, I also liked the content of this post as it agreed rather largely with what I found based on Release's meta. However, scum has an easy time making town reads look right, because they already know that the player is town. He responded. That can be found in his filter, which is short and I urge you to read in any case. Yeah, I'll be writing up the Acro case before this day is over. He just called me townie and left his vote on me saying he might not be here before the lynch. He also mentioned earlier how he plays scum, by looking like a strong townie and making huge cases. I'll be doing the full filter dive but I'll be watching the thread too. Guys, Vote either Fuba or Acro. That is where my vote will be today with two other consolidation options.
I haven't left yet. I'm still deciding whether you are exonerated. I'd also rather lynch you than no-lynch seeing as we are not at mylo. However, if I am not alone, I think Hopeless is a better choice right now.
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Eh, my gut says
##unvote
##vote Hopeless1der
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HELL YEAH. Now how about we take a good look at Prom and Drazak, who REALLY didn't want that lynch to happen.
FUCK YEAH. Nailed that one.
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Oh, and Kush was just being dumb. There cannot be two godfathers.
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On November 06 2012 08:17 mkfuba07 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 08:17 Acrofales wrote:
Oh, and Kush was just being dumb. There cannot be two godfathers. SK?
Of course he can still be an SK, but that doesn't mean he was not being dumb: an SK knows equally little about the scumteam as the rest of us.
A framer is not a possibility I don't think. Gonna check the high-blue-role setup again.
Of course, another option is both Thrawn and Kush being scum, but I am still leaning town on Thrawn. Have a lot of new info to analyze, though.
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On November 06 2012 08:18 Promethelax wrote:
ebwop: did I NOT hammer him?
don't you lump me in with Draz who jumped a vote he had already made. I hammered the bastard and made sure people stayed on him.
On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, it could be a last minute bus. Will have to take a closer look at that. Draz, however, is definitely looking terrible for that, roflol.
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On November 06 2012 08:22 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 08:21 Acrofales wrote:On November 06 2012 08:17 mkfuba07 wrote:On November 06 2012 08:17 Acrofales wrote:
Oh, and Kush was just being dumb. There cannot be two godfathers. SK? Of course he can still be an SK, but that doesn't mean he was not being dumb: an SK knows equally little about the scumteam as the rest of us. A framer is not a possibility I don't think. Gonna check the high-blue-role setup again. Of course, another option is both Thrawn and Kush being scum, but I am still leaning town on Thrawn. Have a lot of new info to analyze, though. This is not C9++ so don't rely to heavily on the mafiascum wiki page. It is only based on c9++
If I understood my PMs with bugs well enough he only really changed some roles around to make it more interesting. I really doubt he changed a roleblocker or a goon for a framer.
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On November 06 2012 08:24 kushm4sta wrote:
dp why are you suspecting me I'm confirmed town bro
Said the serial killer?
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Actually, a framer is also possible. The mafiawiki site has no setup with a framer, yet framer is listed in the possible roles, so yes. Kush could have been framed. Given the suspicion he was under yesterday that is not a half-bad hypothesis either.
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On November 06 2012 08:28 kushm4sta wrote:
yesss draz claim!
@prome so I am your second lynch lol.... you realize that now that godfather died I'm like confirmrd town right
Which part of framer or SK do you NOT understand. You have been playing so horribly scummy all game long... it's just stunning what you can get away with. However, if you are town then that green check is a super-blessing.
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Trying to make sense of things:
On November 06 2012 07:11 drazak wrote:
My penis has been there for awhile kush
This is Drazak confirming that he is voting for Hopeless, however vulgar his affirmation is.
This is 4! fucking minutes before he deadline:
On November 06 2012 07:56 drazak wrote:
Fuck it, I don't think hope is mafia.
Okay. Lets say we believe you for a second
##unvote
##vote prom
we need a lynch though
[blue]What the hell is this then? How in the world did you think a Prom lynch had any hope of happening?[blue]
And then this:
On November 06 2012 07:58 drazak wrote:
I'm scum because I'm not sure about a lurker lynch? k, whatever.
##unvote
##vote hopeless1der
you better hope he comes up red or else I'm cominga t you dp
I can make no sense of this play. What in the world is this shit? Please explain yourself CAREFULLY and in DETAIL. Your explanation so far has been a defense of why you voted for him earlier. Not this bonkers play.
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Screwed up the blue tags. I put my thoughts in blue inside the second quote. Please address that question: what was going through your mind. How the hell did you think a Prom lynch was still possible?
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Also, Release AFK'd through the whole deal.
Yo Release! When you get back here, mind telling us how Hopeless being the godfather affects your entire connection dealio?
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On November 06 2012 08:44 drazak wrote:
I knew he'd be hammered, not sure how a no lynch helps scum here. I wanted him to talk and be more active which is why I parked the vote on him originally, as soon as I saw the meeting post I didn't like it, if he had time to defend himself I'm sure he would have, assuming he's town
You knew WHO would get hammered? I am starting to believe the people saying this was a scum move. At first I thought it was just an incredibly DUMB move. Scum KNOWS they're not supposed to do this and therefore don't do this. I've also seen town pull this kind of shenanigans, when they get last-minute jitters. It's why last-minute bandwagons are risky.
However, there was NO way you could know he would get hammered and even if you knew that, why the hell jump off... and subsequently back on again? If it was some kind of "principal" thing like Kush claims for his own jump, what changed your mind in those 2 minutes?
@DP: I want to hear Drazak's thoughts to see if they are coherent. As I said... town CAN pull this kind of shenanigans. I want to figure out what this is.
Also, Drazak and Kush, bffs?
Kush, what do you make of Drazak's vote shenanigans?
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On November 06 2012 08:54 Promethelax wrote:
Sorry for triple post: Acro could you link me to the site you are using to look up the set up information? I have some ideas I want to check. Thanks.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=C9++
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EPT
