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On September 09 2012 02:35 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 02:27 Hapahauli wrote:
Thankfully things are getting active in here again, but I wanted to discuss the BKE fake-claim a bit.
I think all of us agree that the likely order of events last night consisted of double-stacking one person, while suicide bombing the other (between BC and DrH). BKE's watcher claim suggests that it was BC who got double-stacked and BM24 who got suicide-bombed.
Now unless something about the Day2 post suggests otherwise, this seems highly unlikely. BC was much more of a confirmed town (after outing Mattchew) than DrH was. To the average reader here, BC would seem like much more of a target for blue actions (watcher, medic, etc.) during the night. Isn't it much more likely for mafia to have suicide-bombed BC? There would be a much higher chance of blue's visiting BC after he caught the first mafia. I find it so unlikely that DrH was suicide bombed (over BC), and this is why I'm doubting the BKE claim. This is irrelevant and not evidence. Regardless of your own opinion, mafia could have Bombed DrH and NK BC. It is possible. and thus BKE's claim is possible. Your preconceptions on what you would have done does not necessarily reflect what others did, and thus this in no way disproves BKE's claim.
I'm not disproving anything - I'm saying it's highly unlikely given the dynamics of town Day 1.
I'm talking about likelihood here. If you disagree with this, tell me why instead of spouting this "irrelevant" nonsense.
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On September 09 2012 02:44 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 02:37 Hapahauli wrote:On September 09 2012 02:35 DarthPunk wrote:On September 09 2012 02:27 Hapahauli wrote:
Thankfully things are getting active in here again, but I wanted to discuss the BKE fake-claim a bit.
I think all of us agree that the likely order of events last night consisted of double-stacking one person, while suicide bombing the other (between BC and DrH). BKE's watcher claim suggests that it was BC who got double-stacked and BM24 who got suicide-bombed.
Now unless something about the Day2 post suggests otherwise, this seems highly unlikely. BC was much more of a confirmed town (after outing Mattchew) than DrH was. To the average reader here, BC would seem like much more of a target for blue actions (watcher, medic, etc.) during the night. Isn't it much more likely for mafia to have suicide-bombed BC? There would be a much higher chance of blue's visiting BC after he caught the first mafia. I find it so unlikely that DrH was suicide bombed (over BC), and this is why I'm doubting the BKE claim. This is irrelevant and not evidence. Regardless of your own opinion, mafia could have Bombed DrH and NK BC. It is possible. and thus BKE's claim is possible. Your preconceptions on what you would have done does not necessarily reflect what others did, and thus this in no way disproves BKE's claim. I'm not disproving anything - I'm saying it's highly unlikely given the dynamics of town Day 1. I'm talking about likelihood here. If you disagree with this, tell me why instead of spouting this "irrelevant" nonsense. I thought the same thing but than again, what's the point of claiming he watched BM24? If he's mafia he could as well just swapped it and made it the other way around. He could have easily said "sup dudes, watched BM24 yesterday and BC got suicide bombed" as frankly most people expected it that way. What I'm taking from this is that he's telling the truth about who got suicide bombed either way.If he's mafia he said that because he didn't even think about it the other way around and just claimed what really happened + a fake for himself. No need to lie about who got hit / suicide bombed. If anything that's just more chances to screw up somehow if someone tracked him or watched something else. If he's town he said that because it really happened that way.
Well said, and I guess this does explain why no blues were killed last night (since most of them probably targeted BC).
Given your analysis, I consider the claim to be null. He's telling the truth of what happened last night either way, and he'd have access to this information as blue or mafia.
I'm still going to be pushing for his lynch given the litany of scummy behavior in his filter - namely the Mattchew fail-bus which I think is indefensible.
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On September 09 2012 02:47 strongandbig wrote:
yeah so i just read through za-bosom's filter. I agree with austin that there is stuff not to like there, but I think two things.
1. his case on goodkarma seems genuine. What I mean by that is it doesn't just seem like casual distancing, but rather an actual attempt to point out problems with his filter. Now, this doesn't mean that boson isn't mafia - they could have already known they were going to use the suicide bomb. But it seems a bit early to be saying 'bro your filter sucks and is inconsistent' in the thread rather than in the scum qt.
2. he hasn't really followed up his case on maverickx since the start of day2 - interesting.
Yeah so atm I'd kinda rather lynch bkexe, but in general I think boson is definitely someone to keep a sharp eye on.
Disagree on Z-Boson for now for three reasons:
#1 - GoodKarma's opening post was an FoS on Z-Boson
#2 - The GK/Z-Boson interaction seems reasonably genuine (they are not small, uninvolved conversations)
#3 - My own meta read of Z-Boson (from his mafia-meta in Newbie XXIV) suggests to me that he's town based on activity and casewriting.
All of this combined, and I'm leaning pretty heavily town on Z-Boson. I think there are many other lynch priorities over Z-Boson.
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^ did you not read anything he just said above? It sound pretty reasonable. You have grounds to accuse me, and the confirmed-town BM24 on the same rationale.
Also, personal attacks =/= scum. To me, he sounds pretty pissed off that you made a bad case against him, and I agree fully.
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EBWOP: Last post was @ austinmcc
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@ austinmcc
Okay admittedly I'm a bit biased because of my meta-read, and I sat down to take a look at your case again.
The one thing I want some answers from Z-Boson is his ##Vote post:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=21#413
I just don't understand what he's saying here. It's as if he criticizes the reasoning for voting Mattchew, then turns around and votes Mattchew.
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You've got to be fucking kidding me.
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Welp. Gotta grab a drink or something. My apologies to BKE.
I have no idea what happened with the NK's night one. They put a single stack on BC and presumably suicide-bombed DrH. Might have been a medic-save somewhere N1 - that's the only explanation I have.
Going to take a dive through some filters tonight.
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On September 09 2012 07:19 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 07:13 Hapahauli wrote:
Welp. Gotta grab a drink or something. My apologies to BKE.
I have no idea what happened with the NK's night one. They put a single stack on BC and presumably suicide-bombed DrH. Might have been a medic-save somewhere N1 - that's the only explanation I have.
Going to take a dive through some filters tonight. Ok, gonna have to start asking a bit of question here to get into things. First, who is DrH? Cant find any name or role fitting that.
BlackMamba24 = smurf for DrHelvetica (a.k.a DrH)
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Rewok
Since BKE flipped town, this caught my eye:
On September 08 2012 01:27 Rewok wrote:
TBH with you, I'm a little hesitant to lynch BKE. I'll vote for him because it's better to get some blood than no blood, but it wouldn't hurt to open our search up a little bit. Don't we have more than 24 hours left?
Personally, I've had Mav on my radar for awhile because of posts he had on both Mattchew and Ottox (will find them later - gotta run to work now.) And this recent ShaoPi thing seems rather fishy as well.
So here's my ##vote BKE, with the readiness to unvote it and switch it up if we find someone better.
First he's hesitant to lynch BKE. Then he wants to vote for him because "it's better to get some blood than no blood" - NOT because he thinks BKE is mafia.
He then points fingers at two people (Mav and ShiaoPi).
Vigi shot anyone?
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@ Z Boson
First of all, I don't like you making posts criticizing BKE's play. I'm still a bit stupified from the result, but in retrospect, he did all he could to defend himself.
@Hapa: I don't like how you ignored/didn't see this possibility. Also, you hopped on austin's poor arguments needlessly, as it was clearly not going to get anything done, and even questioned a distant post I had made. His case against me seemed genuine (but stupid), your decision to hop on it + not even considering this point I made about a BKE fakeclaim out of the blue, after having said that you thought I was a "confirmed townie" did not.
Austin doesn't necessarily have a poor argument. Your Mattchew Vote post does not make you look good. I know I mentioned that I thought you were town based on GoodKarma's filter, but the more and more I think about it, the more and more I think that GK's filter was a massive WIFOM mindbomb.
I never said you were a confirmed townie I said you were "likely" town, and I'm going to have to throw that assumption out the window for now.
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On September 09 2012 08:42 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 08:21 Hapahauli wrote:@ Z Boson1)First of all, I don't like you making posts criticizing BKE's play. I'm still a bit stupified from the result, but in retrospect, he did all he could to defend himself. @Hapa: I don't like how you ignored/didn't see this possibility. Also, you hopped on austin's poor arguments needlessly, as it was clearly not going to get anything done, and even questioned a distant post I had made. His case against me seemed genuine (but stupid), your decision to hop on it + not even considering this point I made about a BKE fakeclaim out of the blue, after having said that you thought I was a "confirmed townie" did not. 2)Austin doesn't necessarily have a poor argument. Your Mattchew Vote post does not make you look good. I know I mentioned that I thought you were town based on GoodKarma's filter, but the more and more I think about it, the more and more I think that GK's filter was a massive WIFOM mindbomb. I never said you were a confirmed townie I said you were "likely" town, and I'm going to have to throw that assumption out the window for now. 1) Yea, jumping around his vote, ignoring his own cases, and looking to join the bandwagon with most votes on it seems extremely defensive. 2) How does it not make me look good? What's the theory? Are you gonna throw me in with the other dozen of people who could have maybe soft-defended Mattchew? And dare you not use the GK argument, as I have shown it to be terribad, and you actually agreed with it. Also, I don't absolutely neglect looking suspicious, my concern with you is more related to the timing of when you chose to go after me. What could you, as town, have possibly hoped to accomplish? The town focus should have been on validating the BKE lynch. Do you agree with this? Don't dodge, answer: yes or no. Did you read my post? Both you and austin have ignored the most important part of my post. Like I've stated, I think focusing on the veterans, for this night, should be ideal, as I have reason to believe at least one of them is.
@ Z-Boson
How does it not make me look good? What's the theory? Are you gonna throw me in with the other dozen of people who could have maybe soft-defended Mattchew?
Theory is simple - why attack the person pushing the lynch and seemingly criticize the argument behind the lynch... then end up voting for the lynch. As town, it would make more sense for you to full-on support the lynch with your post. I find that stuff scummy, but no where near definitive (hence me not bolding your name red).
Did you read my post? Both you and austin have ignored the most important part of my post. Like I've stated, I think focusing on the veterans, for this night, should be ideal, as I have reason to believe at least one of them is.
I agree with you. I stated somewhere before in my filter that scum were willing to sacrifice GoodKarma. The scumteam's willingness to part with another member after the Mattchew lynch tells me that the scumteam was not afraid to play from behind. They must have been in very good standing after Day 1. There's a reason why they went all out to kill the two best scumhunters in the thread night 1.
The town focus should have been on validating the BKE lynch. Do you agree with this? Don't dodge, answer: yes or no.
Well of course yes, though I don't know what exactly the purpose of this question is.
Also, I don't absolutely neglect looking suspicious, my concern with you is more related to the timing of when you chose to go after me. What could you, as town, have possibly hoped to accomplish?
I thought I had BKE nailed as scum and was comfortable to pursue other reads. Again, your ##vote post really stands out to me. I'll have to read your filter and decide whether it makes you scummy or not. That's all.
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I retract my vigi-shot call on Rewok. He mentions the "lynch for blood" stuff earlier in his filter, and I'm willing to chalk it up to bad town. His giant wall-o-text posts giving everyone null-reads actually reads town to me - seems like a genuine attempt to contribute, despite being useless.
However, I do think we should look into vigi-shotting [b]ShiaoPi[b]. Shiao is hardcore lurking in comparison to his other games as VT. Absolutely no content in Shaio's filter, and there are a couple of posts that fingerpoint like mad:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=47#929
Shaio originally wasn't posting because of "internet concerns." I believed Shiao at the time, but now it's becoming a habit.
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On September 09 2012 11:42 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 11:17 Hapahauli wrote:I retract my vigi-shot call on Rewok. He mentions the "lynch for blood" stuff earlier in his filter, and I'm willing to chalk it up to bad town. His giant wall-o-text posts giving everyone null-reads actually reads town to me - seems like a genuine attempt to contribute, despite being useless. However, I do think we should look into vigi-shotting [b] ShiaoPi[b]. Shiao is hardcore lurking in comparison to his other games as VT. Absolutely no content in Shaio's filter, and there are a couple of posts that fingerpoint like mad: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=47#929Shaio originally wasn't posting because of "internet concerns." I believed Shiao at the time, but now it's becoming a habit. Why are you calling for a vig shot on Shiao for lurking and no call for a vig shot on me for lurking? I'm fingerpointing too.
Do you think you're a better vig shot than Shaio? Do tell.
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Quite frankly, I'm just pissed the fuck off that people are lurking, and Shady's going as far as to freking flaunt it.
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On September 09 2012 12:14 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 12:02 DarthPunk wrote:On September 09 2012 11:50 Shady Sands wrote:On September 09 2012 11:47 Hapahauli wrote:On September 09 2012 11:42 Shady Sands wrote:On September 09 2012 11:17 Hapahauli wrote:I retract my vigi-shot call on Rewok. He mentions the "lynch for blood" stuff earlier in his filter, and I'm willing to chalk it up to bad town. His giant wall-o-text posts giving everyone null-reads actually reads town to me - seems like a genuine attempt to contribute, despite being useless. However, I do think we should look into vigi-shotting ShiaoPi. Shiao is hardcore lurking in comparison to his other games as VT. Absolutely no content in Shaio's filter, and there are a couple of posts that fingerpoint like mad:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=47#929
Shaio originally wasn't posting because of "internet concerns." I believed Shiao at the time, but now it's becoming a habit. Why are you calling for a vig shot on Shiao for lurking and no call for a vig shot on me for lurking? I'm fingerpointing too. Do you think you're a better vig shot than Shaio? Do tell. I asked you first, Hapa. Please answer Yeah Hapa. Stop answering questions with questions. You have been extremely selective with your scum reads this game. I would also like to know why shaio over shady. Also how could you see Ottox as not scummy and BKE with a plausible watcher claim guaranteed scum. I am going to take a close look at your filter and XXI. Something is off about you. I agree. Hapa's usually a pretty good scumhunter. [b] His posts on Ottox in particular are just strange; almost inviting a vigi hit on Ottox but backing away enough to give himself plausible deniability. Town Hapa (in Newbie Mini XXIII) didn't play like this.
You're full of it. Admittedly I thought Ottox was suspicious for a little while, but quickly turned around and [b]hard defended him when I started to think straight. Your bolded comment makes me think you didn't read the damn thread.
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And goddamnit, if you want the answer to why I'm calling a shot on ShiaoPi - META. He has barely a page of filter, which is completely inconsistent with any of his other town games. I even said that in my post too - not only are you lurking, but you don't fucking read.
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He's the only one I don't have some form of a bad-town read on.
As for why over you - you actually have a filter. Not reading is also consistent with your town meta.
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On September 09 2012 12:31 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 12:17 Hapahauli wrote:On September 09 2012 12:14 Shady Sands wrote:On September 09 2012 12:02 DarthPunk wrote:On September 09 2012 11:50 Shady Sands wrote:On September 09 2012 11:47 Hapahauli wrote:On September 09 2012 11:42 Shady Sands wrote:On September 09 2012 11:17 Hapahauli wrote:I retract my vigi-shot call on Rewok. He mentions the "lynch for blood" stuff earlier in his filter, and I'm willing to chalk it up to bad town. His giant wall-o-text posts giving everyone null-reads actually reads town to me - seems like a genuine attempt to contribute, despite being useless. However, I do think we should look into vigi-shotting ShiaoPi. Shiao is hardcore lurking in comparison to his other games as VT. Absolutely no content in Shaio's filter, and there are a couple of posts that fingerpoint like mad:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=47#929
Shaio originally wasn't posting because of "internet concerns." I believed Shiao at the time, but now it's becoming a habit. Why are you calling for a vig shot on Shiao for lurking and no call for a vig shot on me for lurking? I'm fingerpointing too. Do you think you're a better vig shot than Shaio? Do tell. I asked you first, Hapa. Please answer Yeah Hapa. Stop answering questions with questions. You have been extremely selective with your scum reads this game. I would also like to know why shaio over shady. Also how could you see Ottox as not scummy and BKE with a plausible watcher claim guaranteed scum. I am going to take a close look at your filter and XXI. Something is off about you. I agree. Hapa's usually a pretty good scumhunter. His posts on Ottox in particular are just strange; almost inviting a vigi hit on Ottox but backing away enough to give himself plausible deniability. Town Hapa (in Newbie Mini XXIII) didn't play like this. You're full of it. Admittedly I thought Ottox was suspicious for a little while, but quickly turned around and [b]hard defended him when I started to think straight. Your bolded comment makes me think you didn't read the damn thread. Or you turned around and hard defended him once the wagon got rolling and was nearly unstoppable. Your motivations here could be spun any which way but the truth remains that[b] town Hapa didn't play this way in XXIII.
Describe this to me in detail while I sit back and giggle to myself.
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EPT
