Pick Your Power: Redux
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On May 10 2012 13:31 talismania wrote:
I buy what incognito is saying although the rank by uniqueness first should be put into the rules.
By the way, I still don't understand the need for a second number at all. I think we could have a perfectly good game without it and flips for tiebreaker instead.
Or we could have it to avoid coinflips between 4 players...
Edit i agree most people will just pick 1 as the second number, but some people doesn't for that exact reason.
Edit 2: really excited for this to start! To all you lovely people i haven't played with before, please go read some of the old pyp's, this is a very special setup with a lot of interesting theory build up over time, let's try and improve on that .
And I'm already fairly certain we have a town sandro this game based on his offensive planning and intensive questioning. While it's not something we have to decide yet, I would totally get behind a CPR on sandro, mass medic backup snipe game.
While I agree we need to randomize our powerroles, PYP:I was also super easy because we maxed out blue roles. Without being too specific to avoid snipes, if you end up lowish in the list please pickup heroes like medics and be a hero, even if it's not a superman you can still win the game for us. Don't be afraid to pick up stuff like role cop either, you can tell a lot from peoples alignment through their roles, in the PYP's I have played mafia has never been afraid to pick mafia power roles.
And lastly, regarding the traitor. I know some people got dissapointed when they didn't get a mafia role. Let me just say in all the PYP's so far, someone else has picked traitor as well, and when they didnt get it claimed in thread. Very easy to hunt down the guilty person from a short list then.
@Toad I agree there is a few more powerful roles, namely jack of all trades and copycat. IMO jack is a most have for a denial plan, with Copy Cat as a possibility.
Also, I'm fairly certain I belong on that lists of "vets" as well :p
I do agree CPR doc is stupidly powerful in mafia hands though, my problem is we can't assing it without also keeping track of the copycat. Otherwise mafia is just going to get the copycat and shoot cpr doc. I'm willing to hear ideas on how you suggest to control it?
On May 15 2012 11:55 Toadesstern wrote:
Come on, this really is like WBGs C9++ all over again just that Qatol has taken over Sandrobas place.
I tell everyone that making sure mafia can't grab the CPR should be number #1 priority and we should make it something like #1 CPR #2 CPR or #1 CPR #2RB and that Sandrobas plan sounds more promising to mafia than it does for town and everyone is like "screw that guy, Sandroba is right, Toad is just telling bullshit". Just that people don't call me retarded this game because GM would probably modkill for that, so it's a more pleasent way of calling me retarded while still meaning the same.
Qatol gets in here, basicly tells the exact same things I've been telling people and everyone is suddenly like "well that guy has a point! That sounds really awesome and logical! We should totally do that!"
You've simply got to be kidding me. But yeah I'm fine with not getting credit for the basic idea and telling people they are wrong in sheeping Sandroba and that we should instead try to deny the CPR 100% as long as people end up doing the right thing. That way Qatol gets shot and I'm safe while being the hero town needs.
+ Show Spoiler +
If that's not a nomination for Drama Queen award I don't know what else I need to do to get that award
Well for what it's worth you made me rethink things I guess since we aren't native speakers it isn't as clear? Qatol say exactly the same as me regarding traitors, and it sounds way better.
I like the randomize plan, seems a lot like the one we used in PYP:I.
Also while this plan only relies on the coorporation of the top spots, it's important that people give their opinionsupport on it/support for it before the draft order is out, so we don't have to salvage the plan between a few coorporative townies afterwards.
On May 15 2012 18:31 Palmar wrote:
how about we all pick vanilla town?
Here's to you clashing ending up far away from powerful roles
urgh sorry for giving in to one line spam
On May 16 2012 03:22 Qatol wrote:
Ugh, you people post too much.
Toadesstern, I'm sorry you feel like I'm stealing your thunder. It wasn't intentional. Like PaqMan said, your posts definitely aren't being ignored. Nobody is calling your ideas retarded. In fact, most of us agree with them! I'm willing to talk to you more in depth about your posting, but I don't think mid-game is the right context for that. Shoot me a PM after the game ends/ after we both die and we can talk. Also, I think I have you beat by a few years on the idea of assigning specific roles to specific draft slots.
Sandroba, there is also a reason that a lot of games involving a lot of town KP end in disaster if the KP is used early (see Responsibility Mafia for example). Assigning the role does accomplish what we want to accomplish. It puts the role at a known spot in the queue, which allows the role to be roleblocked by a Roleblocker or Jailkeeper later in the queue if they wish. It also forces the mafia to take the role with the first pick if they want it. Meanwhile, if a townie gets the role, then we have effectively taken one of the most dangerous roles out of play for the mafia. Assigning the 50/50 pick for the 3rd player isn't just about denying CPR, it's also about denying Janitor. The point is we don't want to see the role used at all, it isn't just that we are worried about finding scum after the role is used (although that is a perk).
Regarding the Godfather, the point everyone else has is that the Godfather role simply isn't that strong a selection for the mafia. There are far more concerning selections anyways. Plus, if you're worried about the role, just consider taking it (if you don't have a top 3 pick). This advice applies to everyone and every role. The point is that we don't want the mafia to feel safe taking anything (other than Tracker). Also, could you re-post the Carolus Magnus post on your Sandroba account? You're messing up your filter for later if you don't.
Barundar/Bluelightz, the problem with denying more roles than just 2 is you wind up in a situation where the mafia has a very good idea of what each player is going to be selecting. This is problematic for a few reasons.
First, the mafia/SK can simply take roles they want before they are assigned and feel relatively comfortable that they will get their role. We don't want them to feel comfortable selecting anything, especially not the roles they specifically want. We want them to have to weigh the danger that a role will be selected against the value that role brings to their team. We want to force them to select roles they don't want as much because they're worried that selecting the roles they do want will be too dangerous. Alternatively, we want them to try to select a role they really want, but miss and wind up with vanilla members. Both situations are a huge win for the town.
Second, we don't want the mafia/SK to know where to shoot to hit the roles they are concerned about. The problem with assigning too many roles is the mafia/SK know where those roles are, so if we want to commit to keeping them alive, we have to use our protections on them, which gives the mafia/SK more confidence when shooting other players. We want them to spend their time shooting into players with defensive roles and/or players who have defensively selected a role but don't intend to use it. The odds that they will do such a thing go up significantly if we assign fewer roles.
Barundar, the problem with your role cop plan (as mentioned by zelblade and Bluelightz) is that there aren't enough roles which can confirm role selection. Because of this, it is not worth the drawbacks (mentioned above) of assigning every role in exchange for allowing 1 role + 1 JOAT check (note: it is a role check only) + sometimes a Bullet Bill check the ability to check if people followed the plan. For all you know, the mafia may even want the role they are assigned, which causes even more problems.
Regarding roles, I'm surprised people are pointing out the danger of Angry Vigilante when I find Vigilante to be far scarier. Sure Angry Vigilante bypasses the first protection. But how often do we get medic protections anyways? And what are the odds that the player shot will be protected by a medic. It allows the mafia to beat a medic and kill an experienced player night 1 if they want, but it's a one-shot ability and the mafia are still gambling that the player didn't pick something like Hider or Veteran + attracted protection or happens to be the SK. Meanwhile, Vigilante allows the mafia to take out 2 players and speed up the game that much more - a far more dangerous ability.
SK Politician is a powerful selection. However, it only assists the SK in the lategame. It is the town + the mafia's job to make sure that the SK doesn't make it to the lategame. Besides, the selection isn't without its dangers - if a role check is used on the SK, it's going to be pretty obvious what his alignment is if he has Politician and hasn't claimed it.
Pardoner doesn't scare me - it slows down the game and I'm more worried about the mafia speeding the game up. While it can be used to confuse the town, it isn't as devastating as other selections they could make. Remember, the mafia have to use one of their 4 role selections on this role. I think they have more value elsewhere.
Misder, please read my earlier posts on the copycat. Mafia only have 1 KP, so they can't stack on anyone. SK shoots before any roles get their shots, so Mafia would lose the ability to control the copycatted role.
Deconduo, I disagree with using a tiering system (labeling specific roles as picks people high in the list should consider). And I definitely disagree with you that Witch, Jailkeeper, and Hider are bad roles. Hider is probably the best defensive role out there because you are completely immune to night kills as long as you are hiding behind a low priority kill target. Personally, I think it is much stronger than Veteran. Witch and Jailkeeper are 2 of our 4 protection roles (along with Doctor and JOAT). Why on earth are you trying to take them out of play? Both of them are better selections for most town players than something like Roleblocker for example.
I only partially disagree that Framers should be lynched if checked. I think Framer is a decent denial selection for a townie. However, I think this role has to come with a caveat: if you get it, you have to claim it.
A few corrections, first bluelightz was the one suggesting the role cop plan, I'd never agree to a follow the cop scenario, but he seems to have pulled it off the table anyways.
I interpret your argument against denying more roles as you don't want to have to deal with copy cat shenanigans by having scum powerroles die night 1, is that correct? If so I feel a lot better about not regulating the CC.
Second angry vigi can't be used on first night, making it even less of a threat.
On May 16 2012 18:53 marvellosity wrote:
P.S. Do I have any option other than to retardedly RNG a role? I'd quite like to pick one, actually.
Problem is then the most dangerous roles can go lost in the depths of the list. You will still get a role if top spots lied. I've been where you are, consider it a team game where your most important task is annoying but will be a big part of your impact on the game. In any case, you are inviting scum to gamble on you not following the plan by expressing doubt.
I'm keeping a list of numbers for my own use, and just by the knowledge of my numbers   I'm able to reconstruct the remaining players first number, with the exception of an unimportant detail. So there is no reason to post more numbers.
On May 15 2012 01:54 Mattchew wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2012 01:51 sandroba wrote:
@mattchew sorry i missed it. I would say yes, very town favored. 15 blues aren't guaranteed though.
I have a new adition to the denial plan
He actually sends pardon through pms so we profit from knowing where it is.
Ok.. so what if we assigned everyone to enter a number and also assigned them a role. It would create a pre-game accountability for people and we would have better shot of getting 10+ roles to town...
theres something wrong with this plan that needs to be pointed out to me.. i just cant figure out what it is yet
Doesn't push his plan, just suggest it and asks for it to be shot down.
On May 16 2012 13:36 Mattchew wrote:
decon you taking godfather?
decon has definitely agreed to the plan, so why would he ask this? Could be to try and passively push the plan (that he hasn't really commented on) or role fish?
That said I have yet to do any extensive digging through past games yet on him.
On May 17 2012 12:29 Misder wrote:
Barundar, what do you think about Mattchew now?
This doesn't make Mattchew look any better if you ask me, there is a couple of things I find off with this shot. For now we can just conclude a scum copy cat most likely have the cpr doctor role we set out to deny them, and instead devote the time it deserves to Qatol's case. I'm a bit suprised, I expected a massive case on Sandroba.
On May 17 2012 15:18 talismania wrote:
Mattchew to be scum makes little sense. That's the scum team wasting two roles and one member to get an unknown CPR doc and pray that when Mattchew is still alive at the end no one gets suspicious.
Mattchew being sk also makes little sense. There are better roles for sk to pick, eg politician, that have late game potential, which is where the sk has to win after all.
Stop for a moment and ask yourself: What is the stronger mafia team, 3 players with 2 kp, or 4 players with 1? We can wait untill a potential copy cat claims CPR doc, but my cynical heart tells me that won't happen and we will face an extra KP. While I can let Mattchew off for today since he shot red, don't think for a second a scum team would never dare pull this off, especially not if they felt they where at a setup disadvantage and had to take chances to catch up. I'm still waiting to hear what exactly made Mattchew think deconduo was scum, from his post: (which he fucked up editing, typical nervous mistake),
Also, the cpr doc is an incredibly risky role to be possessed by town, and even more powerful in the hands of scum. I would rather not let decon (who I believe to be scum) have this role. Because of this, I am shooting deconit sounds almost as if he is shooting CPR doc simply on principle. CC gets the role? Didn't think of that TROLOLOL
On May 17 2012 23:11 Mattchew wrote:
Qatol, I actually would really like to see everyone's numbers they picked. I think that contrary to your opinion there is alignment information to be extracted from the numbers.
Another question I have for people is what are the chances a scum team picked copycat if I am town? Unless they were going to hardcore bus decon today to get him lynched I don't see any reason for a scum team to pick that role considering someone is most likely going to be lynched today that is mostly out of their control.
If you aren't mafia, it's likely that noone picked copycat, or that it is in town hands. At least wiggles picked up CC in PYP:I. I reserve my final judgement of you for when we know if a CPR doc KP is in the night posts. If you are town, clever seen with the numbers, got no problem sharing my list:
deconduo   Mafia CPR doc
risk.nuke  
marvellosity  
[UoN]Sentinel  
Mattchew  [x] Day vig
zelblade  [x]
Bluelightz  [x]
talismania  
Misder  [1-2]
PaqMan  
slOosh  [x]
Toadesstern  
Barundar  
Zephirdd  
hiro protagonist  [2+]
Palmar  
Snarfs  
Qatol  
sandroba [5/0] [x]
Probulous [5/0] [x] town modkill
The unimportant detail I can't know for certain is if zelblade/bluelights picked 12, 13 or 14, I just gave them 12 and 14.
@toad if i had a list check of 3 people with 1 mafia on it I would 100% lynch into it.
Standard logic tells me to confirm the vanilla claim first, so a tentative vote on sentinel for now. Risk.nuke came across as town with his in your face attitude earlier, since day post he seems to have taken it overboard though. Now to not skim read a million pages, sigh.
I'd like marv and sentinel to comment on Sandroba's scenario.