EPTSurprisingly Normal Mini Mafia VII
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Janaan
United States381 Posts
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Janaan
United States381 Posts
This is my first game of forum mafia, I've played very casual in-person games, though most of those have little to no actual scum-hunting and just fairly random fingerpointing, so I'd barely count that as real experience. I'm looking forward to a good game! | ||
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Janaan
United States381 Posts
1. It's already been mentioned, but I think that gumshoe's poll, while not a very useful idea, came from a newbie trying to find a cool way to start discussion and help the town. I'm not really getting a scummy vibe from it. 2. The bout between Sloosh and EchelonTee. I'm seeing Sloosh using a hint of WIFOM reasoning, but not enough for me to call it scummy action. I will keep my eye on him, though. As far as EchelonTee goes, I actually follow his reasoning pretty well, he does seem to be getting a bit defensive, though. 3. Something I'm really concerned about right now is that there seems to be a few players who have posted since the game started, but only in the most fluffy of ways. Specifically, jaj22, DimmuKlok, trackd00r, MannerKiss, and to a lesser extent, Steveling and TKHawkins. I understand if they didn't have the time to do more than just check in at the start of the game, but still, for so many people to just put out one or two fairly useless posts is overall not a good pro-town atmosphere. We HAVE to find some way to get people involved and posting. One player that concerns me right now is MannerKiss. First he gets called out to provide some decent content by DoYouHas, then he posts a single sentence acknowledging DoYouHas's post, but doesn't post any content. I'm getting slightly scummy vibes from his play right now. It's worth looking into as we go forward. | ||
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Janaan
United States381 Posts
On February 18 2012 02:55 slOosh wrote: Gumshoe, (and anyone else for that matter) please don't lie. Ever. Especially in a newbie game, we can't have people lying as it destroys town's ability to find mafia. Now, everyone has posted, so it is a matter of differentiating who is trying to contribute vs who is just trying to look like they contribute. Can you clarify your stance on us? Do you think I'm suspicious? You say you follow ET's reasoning well but it doesn't seem that you think he is town either? What are your thoughts on us? At this moment, I'd still call you and Echelon neutral on my radar, however, I am looking at your posts very carefully. Like I said in the post, I don't think that either of you are mafia at this point, there's not really enough to go on yet. + Show Spoiler + On February 17 2012 18:09 DimmuKlok wrote: Alright, lets take a look. MannerKiss: I think it's unanimous that we would like to hear more from him. His first post was a simple one line introduction, and his second was his one line reply to DoYouHas, which was almost humorous in how suspicious it sounded. Jaj22: He was the one that initially started the conversation about lynching lurkers. I don't agree with his stance. I would rather not have a lynch than lynch a lurker on the first day. I'm not sure if his posts are much to be suspicious over, but worth keeping an eye on. Me: I don't see how someone could read my post and think it didn't have a pro-town atmosphere, but that's your opinion. Trackd00r: I found his first post to be useful and agreed with some of what he said. He never contributed again after that, but it's still pretty early. I don't see the anti-town atmosphere in his post. I feel like I should clarify a bit where I was going with this part of my statement as well. My point was not only the content that people posted, but also, the fact that these people were online when the game started, or soon after, then at the most posted 1 or 2 times with very general statements about lynching lurkers (that was Trackd00r specifically). This is while all the talk about the poll was going on, and the beginnings of Sloosh and Echelon's talk. There was plenty that could have been said that wasn't. I know some people maybe didn't have the opportunity, but I also think there were at least a couple of those people I mentioned that could have posted. I obviously don't know which ones, though. My thing about now having a good town atmosphere is just overall, I want people to feel that they should be posting if they can, with as much content as they can, and so seeing so many people with just one post after the game started, or a couple posts without any real content, disturbed me a bit. DimmuKlok, since you're the one who commented on this specifically, lets look at your first post and see just why I didn't like it. + Show Spoiler + On February 17 2012 15:26 DimmuKlok wrote: Hello everyone, I just finished reading through the thread. I would first like to echo TKHawkins first post about lurking and availability when posting. I've been checking the thread nightly to see if the game had started, and tonight it did. I would not be surprised if the majority of people who haven't posted yet are unaware that the game has started. Now a little bit about myself... This is my first mafia game, and I'm looking forward to it. I really like gumshoe's idea with the report. I'm sure it's already common place, but I recommend everyone make their own private version of it. It's not hard, and it makes it a lot easier to keep track of everyone. I don't have much to contribute yet when it comes to suspicions. It's still too early. So, the only comment you made was just reminding poeple of TKHawkins's statement, with no explanation of why you feel that way, or why you agree with him. Then you do mention gumshoe's idea briefly, which is good. Like I said earlier, though, I would've liked to see you comment on everything else going on too, not just a basic post to start the game. This secion of my origial post wasn't so much about looking for suspects as calling out some people that I'd like to see more from. I don't want this town to be one that allows lurking at all. Since it's been brought up, I wanted to weigh in on the lurker lynch/no lynch. Obviously, I'd like to be able to get a decent read on someone. If that's not possible Day 1, though, a lurker lynch is probably the way to go. If nothing else, it sends a message to lurkers that we won't tolerate their behavior, and they need to get in the game. A no lynch really doesn't help the town, since no information is gained from the voting process itself, and if we're even thinking about no-lynch, then information is what we need more than anything else anyway. | ||
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Janaan
United States381 Posts
DoYouHas: Pretty strong towny feel to me. He's been willing to call people out and promoting real discussion from the town. Sloosh: Still on the neutral side, BUT probably leaning toward the town side of things. Since defending himself from Echelon, he's been trying to clear the thread of fluffy responses, to allow for real discussion, which is also what he did in NMM3. Alderan: Feeling a bit towny to me. He was the first to provide a full-on case against someone, which is usually a pro-town action. Gumshoe: I still think he may just be a real newbie town, but his posts are clogging up the thread. His post on Jaj22 was pretty unhelpful in my opinion, and seemed kinda wishy-washy and pretty WIFOM at the end. DimmuKlok: As mentioned by Alderan, he seems scummy. I await his resonse to the case. | ||
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Janaan
United States381 Posts
On February 18 2012 08:58 gumshoe wrote: Sorry Jaj hasn't posted much so there aint much to read yet but I don't get a scummy vibe off him so take my opinion for what you will. No need to apologize, if that's what you really thought, then there's nothing to apologize for. The part that really kinda bugged me was + Show Spoiler + On February 18 2012 08:14 gumshoe wrote: All these things can be interpreted as good mafia play though. What really seals the deal for me in thinking hes town is his efforts to communicate with other mafia semish veterans. None of the other frequentish players have really done this. It gives me a sense that Jaj is trying to create a community of individuals he trusts, which he wouldn't have to do if he was mafia. He's also forcing those same people to talk, because they can also turn out to be the biggest threats having already played the game a bit Jaj is trying to make friends not by pointing fingers or discrediting someone, but by calling out to the players he knows. That seems like really strong positive play to me and sorta dispels his scumish vibe. It just seemed like a VERY WIFOM argument to me, saying that you know what he's trying to do. That's all, really. I was just a bit confused by it. | ||
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Janaan
United States381 Posts
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Janaan
United States381 Posts
The problem I have with Gumshoe's arguements is that they seem generally like you're just attacking Midnight just because he was attacking you. That doesn't neccesarily mean that the analysis is invalid, I just question the motivation behind them. | ||
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Janaan
United States381 Posts
On February 17 2012 15:26 DimmuKlok wrote: Hello everyone, I just finished reading through the thread. I would first like to echo TKHawkins first post about lurking and availability when posting. I've been checking the thread nightly to see if the game had started, and tonight it did. I would not be surprised if the majority of people who haven't posted yet are unaware that the game has started. Now a little bit about myself... This is my first mafia game, and I'm looking forward to it. I really like gumshoe's idea with the report. I'm sure it's already common place, but I recommend everyone make their own private version of it. It's not hard, and it makes it a lot easier to keep track of everyone. I don't have much to contribute yet when it comes to suspicions. It's still too early. Something to add to the scummy actions of DimmuKlok: I didn't really notice this at first, and just now saw it while looking through his filter. He says that previous to the game starting, he'd checked every night to see if we'd started. Now that it has, he's nowhere to be found. Not neccesarily incriminating, but at least worth noting, along with previous posts against him (primarily Alderan's). We NEED you to start being active, DimmuKlok. For now, though... ##Vote: DimmuKlok | ||
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Janaan
United States381 Posts
On February 18 2012 16:25 TKHawkins wrote: It's past 2 am and I just got done catching up. Will just fill in a few quick thoughts before going to bed. Manner still hasn't given a good explanation as to why he was able to post once, then 3 hours later respond literally within 5 minutes of being accused on the thread, and then go silent again. He posted since, but still didn't say anything to address it. Janaan + Show Spoiler + On February 17 2012 17:11 Janaan wrote: 3. Something I'm really concerned about right now is that there seems to be a few players who have posted since the game started, but only in the most fluffy of ways. Specifically, jaj22, DimmuKlok, trackd00r, MannerKiss, and to a lesser extent, Steveling and TKHawkins. I understand if they didn't have the time to do more than just check in at the start of the game, but still, for so many people to just put out one or two fairly useless posts is overall not a good pro-town atmosphere. We HAVE to find some way to get people involved and posting. One player that concerns me right now is MannerKiss. First he gets called out to provide some decent content by DoYouHas, then he posts a single sentence acknowledging DoYouHas's post, but doesn't post any content. I'm getting slightly scummy vibes from his play right now. It's worth looking into as we go forward. In that quote he basically accuses almost everybody who had posted in the thread at the time of being lurkers or scummy. Its not really helpful to spray such accusations without backing it up. He complains about "fluff" posts but does not include Gumshoe in his list of people who are posting fluffy. He then kinda jumps onto a DimmuKlok bandwagon based entirely on Alderan's post. He says all the right things but isn't really contributing. @Trackdoor, just a question. I seem to recall you being one of the few who didn't want to lynch lurkers. But your analysis seems to be mostly, this guy is posting a lot so he's town. Have you changed your policy on lynching lurkers or is this just your way to make them post? I tried to clear my first post up a bit, my intention was not accusations against the people I mentioned. My intention was merely to encourage those people to post more content. As far as Gumshoe is concerned, I had already adressed him in my first point, so I didn't bother mentioning him any further. That seemed reasonable to me at time. As far as my DimmuKlok vote is concerned, I had already been thinking he looked slightly scummy before Alderan posted, and for essentially the same reasons as he did. I could have done my own analysis of his posts, but instead I just referenced Alderan's post, and moved on. The vote itself was actually more of a pressure-vote, not a we-must-lynch-him-now vote, so I didn't feel a full-blown case from me would be neccesary, especially since the work was already essentially done. | ||
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Janaan
United States381 Posts
##Unvote: DimmuKlok ##Vote: EchelonTee | ||
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Janaan
United States381 Posts
On February 19 2012 06:29 slOosh wrote: Read my case on DoYouHas. Don't lynch someone you think is a townie for information. We don't lynch for information, we lynch to kill mafia. I'll read the case, I should be online until the deadline, so I'll be checking the thread periodically for more details, as well. I'm especially interested in what Echelon has to say, especially since he hasn't really had a chance to comment on accusations against him yet. | ||
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Janaan
United States381 Posts
On February 19 2012 07:01 EchelonTee wrote: Lynching your strongest scum read is good; however, your strongest scum read was dimmuklok (according to thread, if i'm not mistaken), not myself. You shouldn't force a lynch on someone that you think is an aggressive townie. sloosh already said this. I have no idea why sloosh would soft defend me. ...DYH you really think he's scum? Yeah, I think after thinking about it for a bit longer, I really don't get scummy feelings from you at all, and I haven't since the game began. As SlOosh reminded me, lynching people you don't think mafia is not a good idea. Now I just need to decide who to actually vote for... ##Unvote: EchelonTee | ||
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Janaan
United States381 Posts
As for the case against MidnightGladius, I understand where Echelon is coming from, but I have slightly different opinions on Midnight. I think I have to stick with my original read at this time, as much as I don't really want a no-lynch Day 1. ##Vote: DimmuKlok | ||
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Janaan
United States381 Posts
On February 19 2012 11:27 TKHawkins wrote: Alright, having reread some stuff after the flip, Alderan was the first to put up a case for DDimmuKlok and stuck on him. And he is another player posting his inability to read Midnight and some weak calls. Janaan was willing to switch to Ech from Dimmu to try to guarantee a lynch even though he said he didn't think Ech was scum. But then he switches back to Dimmu and gets the bandwagon going on Dimmu started again. The reason he voted for Ech was because he didn't want a nolynch day one. Then he changes his mind and votes for a target he thinks will cause a nolynch. He's willing to vote for somebody he doesn't think is town to guarantee a lynch, but then vote for somebody he thinks is scum to force a nolynch because it was his original read. Not only that, the reason he gave for changing his vote "I don't get a scummy feeling from you at all" is bogus. Janaan didn't have scummy feelings from Ech when voted for him. He already balanced the we need info vs. I don't want to lynch people I think are town in his head. FOS Janaan I'm not surprised that I got called out on that, honestly. Let me walk you through my train of thought as best as I can. Orgininally, I had voted on DimmuKlok. He was what I thought at the time to be a decent scum read. When I first looked at the thread today, I noticed that there were only two people with any decent number of votes on them: Mignight with 4 I think, and Echelon with 5. Reading through what everyone was saying, it seemed like no one voting for one would be likely to switch to the other, and we were hurtleing toward a no-vote. I have always gotten the impression from reading guides and previous games that a no-lynch was almost never good for the town. It seems, judging from other players' reactions as we neared the vote deadline, that I'm not the only one who was thinking this. At this point, I made a fairly quick, impulsive decision that to try to guarantee a lynch I'd have to switch to the one with the most votes, so I voted Echelon. Now, as you pointed out, I didn't actually think Echelon was scum. When SlOosh posted, asking me to read his post, and warning me against voting to lynch someone that I had a town read on, it kinda made me think a little harder about my vote than I did previously. I probably should have thought the vote through 100% previously, but I didn't. I read through the cases against Echelon. I read Echelon's filter. I read Echelon's responses to the accusations after he posted them. The conclusion I came to was that I didn't want Echelon to get lynched, so I unvoted, and began seriously looking at the other possible lynch targets. At the point when I unvoted Echelon, the only player with a decent number of votes was Midnight. Again, I read the cases against him specifically, and the cases against others (DoYouHas's case of SlOosh, SlOosh's case of DoYouHas, etc) and I didn't really find any of them more compelling than my own original read on DimmuKlok. So, since I had to vote, DimmuKlok it was. I honestly didn't expect this to end with a lynch. Now, you ask, why was I ok with this? Because, after going over the posts in my head, I decided that I'd rather have a no-lynch than lynch someone that I really didn't think would flip red. Do you disagree with this? If you were in my position, would you really have let someone that you really thought wasn' scum get lynched? | ||
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Janaan
United States381 Posts
On February 19 2012 16:56 gumshoe wrote: We've been focusing too much on whose accusing who and not enough on whose helping each other out. Just look how much these players have been supporting each other. Jannan said + Show Spoiler + One player that concerns me right now is MannerKiss. First he gets called out to provide some decent content by DoYouHas, then he posts a single sentence acknowledging DoYouHas's post, but doesn't post any content. I'm getting slightly scummy vibes from his play right now. It's worth looking into as we go forward. In this post Janaan heavily suspects mannerkiss and in doing so he suggests that Has is trustworthy and was right to pressure manner. 1 more from Jannan + Show Spoiler + DoYouHas: Pretty strong towny feel to me. He's been willing to call people out and promoting real discussion from the town. Sloosh: Still on the neutral side, BUT probably leaning toward the town side of things. Since defending himself from Echelon, he's been trying to clear the thread of fluffy responses, to allow for real discussion, which is also what he did in NMM3. Alderan: Feeling a bit towny to me. He was the first to provide a full-on case against someone, which is usually a pro-town action. So we see Janaan once again supported Do, his reasons seem valid but almost eager, as if hes searching for nice things to say about HAS. 2 also Jaanan's post on alderaan is kinda funny, he speaks from experience saying that good townies post cases but... + Show Spoiler + This is my first game of forum mafia, I've played very casual in-person games, though most of those have little to no actual scum-hunting and just fairly random fingerpointing, so I'd barely count that as real experience where did you learn this exactly? Isn't this suggestion pretty wifom to begin with? 3 I wasn't planning on posting any more tonight, since it's late and my brain may not be working very logically, but since I won't be on for until tomorrow afternoon (about 12 hours from now at least) I guess I should address this now. First off, I hope you see just how incredibly WIFOM the entire argument is. It's all based on the assumption that the players will not come up with the same basic conclusion unless we're all working together and communicating outside the thread. But now I'll address the parts that directly apply to me. 1. As I've said at least twice before, my first post, which this quote is taken from, wasn't about accusing people. I didn't "heavily suspect" anyone, I had literally just got to the thread and was posting first impressions. Do I think DoYouHas was right to pressure, and ask for a read from Manner? Yeah. Yeah, I do. Forgive me if you think it's scummy that I think people should post content, especially when asked specifically for it. Did it have anything to do with DoYouHas specifically? Not at all. The only reason I pulled his name out specifically from the rest of my post trying to encourage lurkers to post was that he was called out on lurking, let us know that he was paying attention to the thread, and still refused to post content. 2. At this point, I was basically thinking out loud with my reads. I was basically thinking along the same overall lines as what I read DoYouHas's intentions as being (getting town to talk more, ask people for their reads, etc.) So, I read him as town. Since then, my town read on him hasn't even been that strong, though. Not enough to really post about (it's been said already anyways) but the read is changing. As far as Alderan is concerned, he made basically the same overall read on DimmuKlan that I did, he just posted it first. So yeah, I did say that I think he felt towny. 3. This part is really WIFOM, honestly. Yes, I said I've only actually played casual games of mafia before, and none were very analytical. That doesn't mean I have no idea how an actual game of mafia should be played, or what a decent town should act like. I've read the newbie guides, read through a couple games, and obsed NMM3 before actually signing up to play. Yes, posting analysis is a good thing. Maybe it doesn't matter if it's the *first* analysis, but analysis is still a good thing. As for the rest of your post, I really can't say. That was all posted by other people, so you'll have to ask them where they got their reads and such from. | ||
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Janaan
United States381 Posts
On February 19 2012 09:52 MidnightGladius wrote: I told you earlier that I felt more suspicious of DYH than DimmuKlok, but that I didn't think that we could have had a majority on him. This remains true, because if DYH were scum we'd assuredly never get majority, and the people who were in the thread at the time had already posted suspicions of DimmuKlok but not DYH. He has been awfully quiet and detached. I certainly would like him to speak up. I was hoping to get your thoughts on DYH, now that he's responded to accusations. Are you still suspicious? In fact, you say that you were actually more suspicious of DYH than DimmuKlok before the vote, but you never actually posted any analysis on him at all. In fact, you only have one post even mentioning him before stating that you'd prefer to lynch him. That post was: On February 19 2012 05:06 MidnightGladius wrote: EBWOP: To DYH: My one-liners were in response to obviously empty posts. There was nothing for me to say, but I wanted to let them know that I was there and ready to respond to more thorough allegations. When they never followed up with anything substantive, I had nothing more to say. I'm going to read the rest of your post now. I assume that you did, in fact, read the rest of his post, but didn't feel the need to address any of it? At what point and why did you start suspecting DYH, and what are your thoughts on him now? | ||
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Janaan
United States381 Posts
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Janaan
United States381 Posts
On February 20 2012 12:42 slOosh wrote: TOWN ARE YOU TRYING TO GO FOR NO LYNCH AGAIN??? We have ONE Lynch. ONE. If you want to FOS someone else you better have a good reason why you aren't voting DYH or Midnight or Echelon or whoever. We find and lynch mafia ONE AT A TIME. I agree that we should take it one lynch at a time, but I think people are probably just checking their own reads, checking the cases, and overall just trying to make sure that you aren't just tunneling DYH too hard. That being said, at this point, I agree with you. ##vote: DoYouHas | ||
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Janaan
United States381 Posts
On February 21 2012 01:15 trackd00r wrote: I just woke up. I'm not expressing any thoughts you give a good reasoning behind. You should have a very good analysis to put 5 scum candidates in order to make that list. Explain why am I third at least... Janaan, THK, what do you think about this? Btw, night post is on tuesday, 09:00 forum time. Regarding the DYH situation, I believe the best we can do is hold the vote to him. The only real and possibly working solution that scum can pull if DYH is red is to push other cases now. I agree with the points that Zelblade made. No one is going to jump into the spotlight and defend him. Anyways, alderan please reply to my post. Becuase I'm switching DYH doesn't mean I'll let you off. ##Vote: DoYouHas I just woke up as well, and I need to leave for class soon. I'll post what I can in that time, I may have to cut it off short, though. I'd really like to see exactly why Mattchew is thinking the way he is. This post gives absolutely no context for why the 5 players he mentioned were chosen for the list, and I really don't like that one bit. Until he gives a reason, it's no more than another fairly useless list of his own personal scum reads. I do find it interesting that this post isn't directed to the town on who to lynch, but to a vig, when we have no guarantee that a vig is in the game. Is this a scumslip revealing information on the set-up? I'm not sure. I think that's all that I can really say about that until Mattchew gives us more reasoning for his list. | ||
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