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I understand I'm gonna take some heat for my posts about third parties especially when I said early on it shouldn't be our focus. Can I expand on that statement?
It's bad for town to focus on role mechanics throughout the whole game, particularly Day 2+. I do think it's a decent way to get discussion going on Day 1, and was I wrong? In this process multiple people have accused each other and some really anti-town ideas have been thrown out around it. Even though I and others have made it quite clear that the third parties shouldn't even shoot, there are still people who like the idea of offering the Joker or take it for granted that BM/CW are just gonna go on a townie killing spree. If anyone remains totally unconvinced or doesn't understand why the DT is the better move for both roles, I will explain that better if you really need me to but you should be able to come to this conclusion yourself as long as you don't have ulterior motives.
I'll take heat for talking a lot about the third parties, but as town I think it's pretty important we don't sacrifice our own vig for no gain. I also think it's pretty important we lynch scum instead of third party. Every day that goes by without a lynch of a scum is a wasted lynch. The more lynches we waste, the faster we get to LYLO. It might seem odd to newer players to hear someone say we should essentially ignore a role that is a threat to town, but our goal is to win the game by lynching scum and that is what we should do. Find scum not third parties. It's fine to talk about it when people like CC are trying to kill our vigilantes, it's not fine when people are saying we should not lynch scum.
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On February 07 2012 08:17 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
And of course you waited until I called you out before doing anything.
I woke up ten minutes ago
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On February 07 2012 08:31 VisceraEyes wrote:
I'm interested Doc - care to point out where Katina or layabout have contributed more than I have? Shouldn't be hard considering how little I've contributed. I appreciate that you think I only show up to defend myself, but that's simply not the case. Like you, I woke up to accusations. I think it's pretty ironic that you phrase it that way when you yourself had to use the same defense.
I never even mentioned Katina so I don't know why you're bringing that up. Lots of players have "contributed" less than you. That doesn't mean they are more likely to be mafia than you. It's a moot point.
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On February 07 2012 08:30 Kurumi wrote:
DrH, You've missed the point of the list. It wasn't to show scum or town, it's too early to do that. It was list of generic info about players (really generic..) people who were suspicious and people who should be important in the game.
I saw players highlighted in red. I get the point but lists of really generic info aren't helpful. Maybe just saying "here's a list of people who might get hit if they're town" or something like that, could be helpful for noob medics, but this is the kind of thing better served staying in your own notepad to keep track of your thoughts until you find something useful.
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On February 07 2012 08:39 VisceraEyes wrote:
You literally said "All 3 players have contributed more than you" in your case against me in reference to the 3 players on my lynch list Doc. And the fact that they're not contributing is NOT the point. MY point is that they're criticizing others for not contributing WHILE NOT CONTRIBUTING THEMSELVES. That DOES make them more likely to be mafia than me because I'm actually contributing and hunting scum.
Doctor. Lord of the Typefaces. You've got the wrong guy. I'm trying to lynch the scums.
Katina didn't really criticize others for not contributing in the kind of way that scum will, guy has 2 posts and makes a solid point on Sheth, I picked up on the same thing he did but I chose to keep it to myself and see if Sheth posted more. That stayed in my head and all I've seen from you is defensiveness. Since I think you're scum I'm inclined to see your FOS's or analysis as scum misinformation and not contribution which I hope is understandable. That statement was a bit too bold in hindsight, so my bad on that.
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@Liquid'Sheth
Your first argument is WIFOM, as is mine to be honest. But mafia are the only party that needs to be so defensive and when players start defending eachother like that, it makes me more confident that my initial hunches might be correct. It's just Day 1 and I'm not coming out saying "Gotcha!" with any sense of serious confidence.
I don't disagree that it is a stupid thing that Kenpachi does.
Your point about Batman is incorrect. Perhaps you don't fully understand the game mechanics. Hopefully this is the last time I have to explain this.
Firstly, Batman has an unblockable detective power. It is immune to GF powers. Secondly, he has an unblockable hit, however it will not kill players with the veteran role. It tells him with 100% confidence except in the case, I assume, of millers (who won't show up as hugo/joker anyway) who the person is. It's not "a little bit of detecting then shooting suspects", when he finds the joker or hugo he KNOWS who they are and will hit them the next night.
If Batman shoots before detecting, he has a low chance of killing either The Joker or Hugo Strange. If he kills a non-Hugo mafia, he gives town a huge advantage. If he kills a town player, he gives the mafia a moderate advantage. Continuing to shoot like this is bad for Batman, because if either Town OR Mafia win before he does, Batman loses the game. He does not win if town wins. He also does not win if Mafia wins.
The only time Batman might use his KP before DT is if one side has an overwhelming advantage and he thinks he can delay the end of the game. Offering up the Joker does not prevent him from shooting more townsfolk, because he has no incentive to do this. Also if he shoots randomly or on his own hunches, he still has as much chance as a town aligned vig does of killing a scum player.
It has nothing to do with knowing where people are. Batman (same rules go for Catwoman) has no reason to care who anyone is except for the Joker and Hugo Strange. By offering Batman the joker, we're giving him an early town kill and we might be able to win the game before he gets any town kills or at least have Joker survive long enough to use his hit and be successful with it. It is not in Batman's interest to shoot randomly or to shoot into people he thinks are red/blue because it increases the likelihood that the game ends before he wins. The best scenario for Batman is one in which the mafia hit the Joker early and he only has to find Hugo, or where we lynch Hugo early and he only has to find the Joker. Hopefully, for us, he looks for Hugo first but even if he starts out looking for the Joker, he's just going to be DTing and there's nothing we can really do about it. Giving him the Joker isn't a solution to any problem.
Moving on to Cyber_Cheese:
Cyber_Cheese's points about Catwoman are wrong. Or maybe it was Tunkeg? Someone said "catwoman should just shoot the most pro-town people", that's not true either. Catwoman should DT until she finds her target then kill them. She doesn't win with scum. If scum win before two-face/penguin are dead then Catwoman loses. Shooting the most pro-town looking people will probably just result in red and green deaths. If you even broadcast that advice or assumption why would two-face and the penguin put themselves in the spotlight? Now Catwoman is in a WIFOM situation where she has to guess what her target is thinking and shooting randomly is unsafe, puts her at a higher risk of losing the game. With the combined full force KP of batman/catwoman/mafia all shooting into "town" (except batman/catwoman don't know who town is, although you guys seem pretty confident they will know implicitly) the game will likely end with scum winning and town with both third parties losing. I'm not going to crunch numbers because I can't do math but I'm guessing of at least one of each candidate surviving to endgame in this scenario are pretty high. I hope that clears things up. I think Cyber_Cheese is either mafia or, more obviously, Batman. I don't know why I didn't put it together before but the player trying to get the Joker offered up scot free with no clear pro-town motives seems like a pretty good bet for me. If he's not third party or scum I'd be pretty shocked. Can anyone link me to some games in which Cyber_Cheese was a town aligned player in memory?
After looking at that I might switch votes. I dislike voting for players who attack me because I am very defensive and often in mafia games I get tunnel vision when I'm attacked. But just as often as I've been wrong, I've been right and ever since letting Pandain slip through my grasp in Insane Mafia I've tried to be more confident.
@Radfield
Asking other people questions and agreeing with WBG doesn't count for much. You were like this in Salem and don't think I'll forget THAT travesty anytime soon.
WBG's analysis is okay. Toadesstern should flesh his thoughts out more but I don't think it's particularly scummy. I still believe town players are more likely to second guess themselves or post logical errors than mafia players are. Mafia players have the advantage of information and teamwork, town is uncoordinated and in the dark. I don't think he necessarily contradicted himself talking about me, it seems like he's saying it's the kind of thing that could go either way so it's just inconclusive.
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The scenario in which it does make sense for Batman or Catwoman to shoot without a conclusive DT check is late-late-late game just before the next day is LYLO or during LYLO. That is when you can't afford to use a DT check because if you don't hit that same night or the next night you will lose. We aren't in this situation so giving up any town player on day 1 (if it's even legal, still need an answer on that) isn't something we should be thinking about at all.
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WBG that was on point, pushing the easiest lynch with no commitment, wishy washy, good call. Voting RG.
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I see Cyber_Cheese was reading the thread closely enough to throw in his 2 cents on the RG lynch but not enough to respond to me after I call him out for his ridiculous catwoman accusation and anti-town plan?
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What was so bad about Bill Murray, Kenpachi?
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On February 07 2012 19:09 Palmar wrote:
you guys are forgetting the possibility of batman/catwoman killing shit because they feel like it.
there's no accounting for stupidity, especially in this game i guess
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On February 07 2012 18:49 Tyrran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 12:55 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Moving on to Cyber_Cheese:
Cyber_Cheese's points about Catwoman are wrong. Or maybe it was Tunkeg? Someone said "catwoman should just shoot the most pro-town people", that's not true either. Catwoman should DT until she finds her target then kill them. She doesn't win with scum. If scum win before two-face/penguin are dead then Catwoman loses. Shooting the most pro-town looking people will probably just result in red and green deaths. If you even broadcast that advice or assumption why would two-face and the penguin put themselves in the spotlight? Now Catwoman is in a WIFOM situation where she has to guess what her target is thinking and shooting randomly is unsafe, puts her at a higher risk of losing the game. With the combined full force KP of batman/catwoman/mafia all shooting into "town" (except batman/catwoman don't know who town is, although you guys seem pretty confident they will know implicitly) the game will likely end with scum winning and town with both third parties losing. I'm not going to crunch numbers because I can't do math but I'm guessing of at least one of each candidate surviving to endgame in this scenario are pretty high. I hope that clears things up. I think Cyber_Cheese is either mafia or, more obviously, Batman. I don't know why I didn't put it together before but the player trying to get the Joker offered up scot free with no clear pro-town motives seems like a pretty good bet for me. If he's not third party or scum I'd be pretty shocked. Can anyone link me to some games in which Cyber_Cheese was a town aligned player in memory?
As much as I agree with you on Batman, I disagree on you Catwoman stance. In my eyes, Catwoman wants to help scum. Her target are one vig and one vig/DT, both valuable target for scum. A scum victory will most likely pass through the death of both of these player. I'm not sure she is going to shoot N1 ( even tho shes has 3/4 chance of hitting town), but she will start shooting much earlier than Batman. We could get lucky and have her hit scum, but i wouldnt rely on it. As far as I stand, i'm considering Catwoman as a scum that town should get rid of if given the possibility. @Kenpachi : Are you planning on being usefull, or do you want town to lynch you before you got the chance to do it? Are you planning to do anything else than OMGUS'ing people that vote for you ? The only reason i'm not voting for you is that you've had similar bad play in Steamship. How are you expecting town not to lynch you with this kind of play ? @rgTheSchworz : So now that you created some pressure in order to get lynch target, what did you find out ? Who do you think we should lynch ?
Catwoman helps scum indirectly. She has no interest in either faction winning until her win conditions are fulfilled, in which case she leaves the game. Seeing her as a threat to town is viable, but she is not scum. We do not get closer to winning by lynching her, we only give the mafia more time to win the game.
Kenpachi is this bad in every game jsyk. I'm starting to think he's bad on purpose so that he can always fall back on the excuse of "oh im just bad and do random stuff" whenever he actually rolls mafia.
On February 07 2012 19:27 Toadesstern wrote:
not sure yet. Probably someone out of CC / layabout. If neither of those 2 is going to be an option I'd be happy to lynch BM / Kenpachi / Palmar instead.
There have been a few cases laid out, put a little more thought into it. Town doesn't win without some serious thought. It's a team effort. You can make statements like this all game as mafia, it's too safe. Let's talk BM. Make a case for his lynch. If you're "happy" to lynch him you must feel pretty good that he's scum right?
Seems like you're not really invested in who gets lynched. Uninterested. That's not good.
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On February 07 2012 19:44 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 19:36 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 07 2012 19:27 Toadesstern wrote:
not sure yet. Probably someone out of CC / layabout. If neither of those 2 is going to be an option I'd be happy to lynch BM / Kenpachi / Palmar instead. There have been a few cases laid out, put a little more thought into it. Town doesn't win without some serious thought. It's a team effort. You can make statements like this all game as mafia, it's too safe. Let's talk BM. Make a case for his lynch. If you're "happy" to lynch him you must feel pretty good that he's scum right? Seems like you're not really invested in who gets lynched. Uninterested. That's not good. Yeah I've got the bad habbit of stopping to work when I'm told that I'm useless. Hapnned last game too. I did big ass analyses about Sandroba and everyone ignored them telling me I'm doing bullshit. I figured I could give you at least a couple of names instead of explaining this time so that should make people happy and you're able to tell if I'm mafia or not depending on the flips. I for example don't like rad because of his list (VE, Kita, myself). I don't have to talk about myself, Kita looks town to me and VE is leaning town for me but I'm not sure there yet. Easy shit. On the BM matter: BM / Kenpachi / Palmar are the 3 people I'd like to see lynch if we can't one of CC / layabout lynched. I think layabout and especially CC are more likely to flip mafia (or badman / catwoman).
If people don't think you're useful, prove them wrong.
Flips are helpful but that won't tell me if you're mafia or not. Especially when you throw in votes/FOS with no explanation or thought, I learn nothing. Mafia players will FOS and vote for other mafia players. It's pretty rare I think that a mafia team don't have some staged confrontations in the thread.
Saying "I'd like to lynch one of these three" is not an acceptable reason. Why Bill Murray or Palmar over anybody else? Why Cyber_Cheese or layabout over anybody else for that matter?
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On February 07 2012 21:52 Palmar wrote:
lol, DocH is not on the list because all he's posted is completely irrelevant.
Are you trying to bait me into getting offended? You should go back to shitposting instead, you're actually good at that.
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Your trolling isn't funny or cute and it makes games annoying to play in for everybody else. Grow up.
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He wasn't defending risk.nuke he was just posting his meta when someone asks. It's not up to him to prove he's town anyway, why don't you post out how he's so terribly scummy? He's scummy for saying nothing? You've said nothing and not only that you've flat out refused to explain your reasoning when asked directly. Apply that logic you're using against layabout to many other players and you'd reach the same conclusion.
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On February 07 2012 22:41 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 22:31 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
He wasn't defending risk.nuke he was just posting his meta when someone asks. It's not up to him to prove he's town anyway, why don't you post out how he's so terribly scummy? He's scummy for saying nothing? You've said nothing and not only that you've flat out refused to explain your reasoning when asked directly. Apply that logic you're using against layabout to many other players and you'd reach the same conclusion. yeah but I'd much rather not lynch Radfield d1. And no if I apply the same logic to other people and barly come to the same conclusion. I'm not done reading everyone's filter so I can't say that for people after #17 inr our list because I haven't reread their filters yet and everything I got on them is a gut feeling.
Why not? If they're scum hang them, I don't care who it is.
I just don't understand why you're tunneling layabout when you refused to even explain your suspicions earlier. Do you want to make a case or not? You're not committing to anything.
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Also if you can explain how Radfield and Layabout are comparable please do. I don't like how gentle Radfield is with his posting right now but I really almost see no similarities between the two.
Unless you're committed to never explaining anything. Have to wait for your scumbuddies to tell you what to say or do you just not like playing this game at all?
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On February 07 2012 22:56 Toadesstern wrote:
Well here we go. I take everything back I said about radfield. Pretty much the same as Palmar for me now :p
take back everything?
such bold statements as:
"i'd rather not lynch radfield d1"
and
"I'm so much more foresighted than radfield." - pre-game
Now you're backpedaling on statements you never made that's a first for me
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Missed one because I CTRL+F 'radfield" and not 'rad'
you also mentioned you didn't like his picks on his list but never actually called him out beyond that. still, it's nothing.
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EPT
