Someone's been impersonating me on IRC... -_-
I never had that conversation with you, meapak, lol.
No wonder people think I'm scummy, hahahahahahahaha.
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
Someone's been impersonating me on IRC... -_- I never had that conversation with you, meapak, lol. No wonder people think I'm scummy, hahahahahahahaha. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
I went on IRC once, talked in the main part, and then WBG asked me a question and never adequately responded, and I made fun of a spectator because he was a visible observer. For reference, I saved my logs: + Show Spoiler + [Discussion for PickYourPowerInteresting] [16:44] <@chaosers> you got bad luck jackal [16:44] <@derpladee> but that was also ages ago i assume [16:44] <Jackal58> So sorry I'm not a fan of plans at this point [16:44] <@derpladee> maybe we've all learned something [16:44] <Jackal58> Somebody will fuck it all up [16:45] <Jackal58> Ya right [16:45] <@jimbosilvers> Jackal: The plan wasn't nearly as stupid as your lynch. Don't just blame the town. [16:45] <@derpladee> how about revising our plans once we know who gets 1st pick etc [16:45] <@jimbosilvers> NO [16:45] <@derpladee> if they're trustworthy then we can go ahead with it [16:45] <@kitaman27> My plan is to lynch jackal if he refuses to follow a plan [16:45] <@hiro_pro> lol [16:45] <@MrWiggles> How do you tell if someone's trusworthy this early, haha? [16:45] <@derpladee> my plan is to lynch people who lynch people who aren't scum [16:45] <@derpladee> well jack isn't [16:45] <@jimbosilvers> Revising picking plans after you draft is a really bad idea. [16:45] <Jackal58> I'm taking day vig and blowing away kita.. [16:45] <@MrWiggles> mhmm [16:46] <@MrWiggles> let's switch 2nd and 3rd roles, so my buddy gets the better one! [16:46] <@jimbosilvers> Because it's super suspetable to meddleing, and the only people who can effectivly meddle, are mafia. [16:46] <@chaosers> no changing the plan [16:46] <@derpladee> but kinda, top3 after draft decide if the plan will go through [16:46] <@chaosers> affter draft is revealed [16:46] <@derpladee> but you're talking about "we can't change a plan that noone will follow" [16:46] <@derpladee> that makes no sense [16:46] <@MrWiggles> huh? [16:46] <@chaosers> go read previous PYP games please [16:46] <Jackal58> The problem is the people that say fuck the plan and pick what they want [16:47] <@MrWiggles> No plans after draft is released, only guidelines [16:47] <@chaosers> yeah [16:47] <@chaosers> we're jsut saying top three [16:47] <@chaosers> pick this shit [16:47] <@MrWiggles> and even those are kind've sketchy if they get too specific [16:47] <@chaosers> why would people say fuck that shit? [16:47] <@hiro_pro> yeah, ther good roles [16:47] <Jackal58> I can get behind 2 or 3 roles taken first [16:47] <@derpladee> because they're the goddamn batman [16:47] <Jackal58> After that It's not a plan [16:48] <@chaosers> yeah [16:48] <@hiro_pro> cool [16:48] <@MrWiggles> inb4 town ackbar :p [16:48] <@chaosers> i'm ok with 3 top draft people [16:48] <@MrWiggles> as first pick [16:48] <@chaosers> picking specific roles [16:48] <Jackal58> which roles? [16:48] <Jackal58> inventor? assasin? [16:48] <@MrWiggles> Inventor/Thief/Swapper, people are saying? [16:49] <@MrWiggles> and then maybe assassin [16:49] <@MrWiggles> those 4 seem to be the focus [16:49] <@hiro_pro> swaper is the same as framer right? [16:49] <@MrWiggles> forgot framer -_- [16:49] <@derpladee> btw, since mayer election is before anything and mayor has to pick a lynch target [16:49] <@derpladee> how does that work? [16:49] <Jackal58> Scum need to be denied assassin [16:49] <@MrWiggles> swapper is like theif, but re-usable [16:49] <@MrWiggles> mayor is day 2 [16:49] <@MrWiggles> day 1* [16:49] <@hiro_pro> oh, kk [16:49] <@MrWiggles> after roles are picked [16:49] <@derpladee> during day1? [16:49] <Jackal58> That + DT will kill [16:49] <@MrWiggles> yeah [16:49] <@MrWiggles> and he picks day 1 lynch [16:49] <@jimbosilvers> If I got pick 1, [16:50] <@jimbosilvers> I think that framer could totally be used in a pro-town way. [16:50] <@derpladee> are there multiple elections? [16:50] <@jimbosilvers> Now that I think about it [16:50] <@derpladee> i mean another mayor day2? or after mayor dies [16:50] <@MrWiggles> It's basically a one-way bus-driver, isn't it? [16:50] <@hiro_pro> 1st gets mayor, 2 gets pardoner [16:50] <@MrWiggles> no, just one elecetion [16:50] <Jackal58> 1 mayor [16:50] <@jimbosilvers> Cause it's really more of a redirector, with the framer thing tacked on. [16:50] <@MrWiggles> yeah [16:50] <Jackal58> pardoner needs to die fast [16:50] <@MrWiggles> mhmm [16:51] <@MrWiggles> Is there even pro-town ways to use pardoner that don't rely on counteing vote-rigger or saving an imba role that you believe is town? [16:51] <@jimbosilvers> We already discussed the Pardoner a while back. [16:51] <Jackal58> mayor is cool and all but pardoner is the real power role [16:51] <@MrWiggles> ahhh [16:51] <@chaosers> yes [16:51] <@chaosers> pardoner needs to die [16:51] <@hiro_pro> If pardoner is ackbar that would be good for town haha [16:51] <@MrWiggles> mind querying or pming me the logs? [16:51] <@jimbosilvers> Here's the problem with that. [16:51] <@jimbosilvers> I'll explain it here: [16:52] <@jimbosilvers> Pardoner cannot be lynched day 1 [16:52] <@chaosers> yeah i know [16:52] <@jimbosilvers> Rules. [16:52] <@jimbosilvers> Pardoner cannot be shot till BGs are gone. [16:52] <@jimbosilvers> That means that the fastest we can kill the Pardoner is a day 2 policy lynch [16:52] <@chaosers> it'd have to be a day two policy lynch [16:52] <@chaosers> yeah [16:52] <Jackal58> he can be lynched [16:52] <@chaosers> which makes no sense [16:52] <@chaosers> he can't be lynched day 1 [16:52] <@jimbosilvers> And a day 2 policy lynch will be REALLY bad for town. [16:52] <@chaosers> mayor can't lynch him [16:52] <Jackal58> mayor can lynch him day 1 [16:52] <@jimbosilvers> Policy lynches stagnate discussion [16:53] <@chaosers> we jsut have to be sure we're voting a townie into pardoner [16:53] <@MrWiggles> Can he pardon his own lynch? [16:53] <@jimbosilvers> No [16:53] <@chaosers> no he can't [16:53] <@MrWiggles> kk [16:53] <@MrWiggles> good [16:53] <Jackal58> dont think so [16:53] <@chaosers> but if he's hero [16:53] <@chaosers> he's basically unkilalble [16:53] <@jimbosilvers> But again, policy lynches should be avoided at all costs. [16:53] <Jackal58> or vig [16:53] <Jackal58> sorry vet This is a sample. Compare the writing style. I write in multiple lines because I train of thought a lot, and I use emoticons. I also don't use periods, really. At least imitate my style, geez. :p | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On October 19 2011 07:53 wherebugsgo wrote: Show nested quote + On October 19 2011 07:44 Mr. Wiggles wrote: What the fuck?! Someone's been impersonating me on IRC... -_- I never had that conversation with you, meapak, lol. No wonder people think I'm scummy, hahahahahahahaha. Is this an attempt at distancing? Wtf? On October 19 2011 07:53 Jackal58 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 19 2011 07:44 Mr. Wiggles wrote: What the fuck?! Someone's been impersonating me on IRC... -_- I never had that conversation with you, meapak, lol. No wonder people think I'm scummy, hahahahahahahaha. You a Bears fan Wiggles? On October 19 2011 07:54 JimboSilvers wrote: I was impersonating wiggles in irc. That conversation was me. I was also impersonating Kenpachi in irc, the only conversation that you posted was the one that we had. (Obviously there were more though, so I'd like to see them if Ken has them) The inventor thought that he invented a vote list check, but found out that the PM didn't send when it didn't show up in the day post. He feels like a failure in that regard, and sends his apologies. And yeah. He get's how stupid it is, but he honestly did think that he had sent in the PM. I have more irc logs, I'll try to post them soon. l0l. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
| ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
I played badly this game, overestimated the amount of time I would have with midterms. I probably would have been fine, but the thread was dead pretty much all game long, with everyone just sitting in IRC, which I couldn't afford to do all day. So, that left me with little to do but yell at Syllo for being scummy. Our team somewhat hinged on use of the puppeteer to come into contact with the other teams, but after losing Cyber and Chaoser n1 (Screw IRC, next game with it as mafia, if I have time, I'm just screwing with everyone to make it as useless as I can) that was dead in the water. Ken revealed Decon, and then there wasn't much to do, after meapak was revealed in thread. I was pretty scummy, and surprised I wasn't shot on Night 1. I couldn't sit in IRC enough to look town, either. I was thinking of contacting Decon or Meapak on Day 2, but didn't have enough time to put in a good effort to do so. I doubt they would have listened to me either, unless I gave them my team's QT, or something. I think a major factor contributing to town's victory was that this game had multiple families as well as complete freedom to use PM and IRC. It was basically impossible to get into contact with another mafia family. Even if you red-checked them, and knew they were mafia, they probably wouldn't respond to you, as they would just assume that you're town fishing for info. We hoped to use the puppet for this, because he could drop details, such as family, hits, etc. without incriminating himself. Unfortunately, the puppet was shot. T.T Town was bad at fishing for info in PM. I was contacted by Palmar, who claimed my own family to me, and by WBG, who I knew was town as soon as he started trying to push for more info about our hit that night, and when he claimed his family's shot was blocked the night before. I knew I was apparent scum at that point, though, so I didn't bother "turning him in" to Radfield like I did Palmar. (Also, our plan was to shoot/steal Jimbo anyways, so you didn't affect anything WBG, haha) I think in future games with multiple families like this, there shouldn't be free PMs. Instead, add in anonymous PM/Mason roles, so that mafia families who want to use diplomacy as part of their game-plan can choose to do so, and it mitigates the effect of mafia being more disorganized. In a free PM game, town can organize itself, but mafia can't, really, without things like puppeteer that let them get into contact more safely. If you claim town to someone, it doesn't matter, but claiming scum is a little like shooting yourself in the foot, haha. Also, to know to contact someone means they need to look scummy, and to get contacted means you look scummy, which is counter-intuitive to your goal of survival. Another solution would be to give each mafia family it's own puppet, but the puppets can't actually PM each other, only players in the game. This will give mafia a way to contact and blackmail each other, and lets town try to pose as mafia to the puppet to gain information. You could give mayor a puppet too, maybe. :p (I like puppets) Back to studying, ~Mr. Wiggles | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
The ip argument doesn't hold very well, as people can change how their ip appears, and impersonate someone that way. I'm pretty much a noob when it comes to IRC, but I'm assuming it wouldn't be that hard to look up a proxy from an area near where someone lives, and then connect through that and claim you're on a laptop, and at a café or public WIFI or something. So, you get into a situation where you have to come up with passwords or something just to make sure the person you're talking to on IRC is who you really think it is. I don't like this, because it detracts from the point of mafia, and becomes more about technical ability and who's cleverest when it comes to masking who you really are or verifying identity. I'm not that mad about this game, because Jimbo actually came out in the thread, and claimed he was the one doing it. but, for example if he was mafia and I was town, I'd have been pretty pissed if he had been impersonating me on IRC and "scum-slipping" to people or something similar, because then I'd look very scummy, and it would be very hard to deny, as no one would have my ip copied as I wasn't on IRC, so I couldn't disprove it that way, and there's no way he would admit to it in thread. So basically, I would be punished for not being on IRC. Personally, I think it goes somewhat against the spirit of the game, and I don't see the difference between that, and for example faking a TL account (You can just check their post count, analogous to ip-checking), or making several fake Skype accounts players, so if you didn't already have them on skype from a prior game, you are again punished for not having done so. I think this is something that should be discussed for future games, and an amendment to the game OP added. Either we should decide if it's allowed or not, or if it should be host's decision. If it's allowed, it should be mentioned in the OP. If I were new, or it was my first PM game, I wouldn't like it if I got lynched because I wasn't aware of the possibility of myself or someone else being impersonated on IRC. For example, imagine a new player who claims his entire mafia team to someone in IRC because he didn't know a town player could be impersonating his team mate. I think it would make for a pretty crappy game. Personally, I think it shouldn't be allowed, unless the host wants to specifically provide for it, and then the host should make a note that he's doing so in the game OP. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On October 24 2011 06:34 wherebugsgo wrote: I don't see how public key cryptography would change a thread game into a PM game. If it's public key then everyone can crack the crypt. EDIT: Not to mention only one player was caught by the IRC impersonation, it was in a public IRC channel, and there are multitudes of ways to prevent impersonation. You can do a PM check (something GM, Incog and I did in XLV) where you ask the person to confirm themselves by giving you all the capital letters in your last PM. That's an almost fool-safe way of preventing someone from misleading you. You can create secret channels if you want to talk to your scumbuddies. You can make your own channel and make it secret/password it by just looking up "how to put a password on an IRC channel" in google. First few hits, problem solved. Why is everyone crying about this when only one player was found through the impersonation? It is completely his own fault he got caught and was careless, and Jimbo's ingenuity should be praised. It was an excellent tactic to infiltrate the mafia who were mostly really complacent and weak this game. Where do I give the impression I'm "crying" about it? Firstly, it always catches two people, as the person who is responding to you would only respond that way to his scum-buddy. So, it caught both Cyber, who responded, and Chaoser who Jimbo was posing as, even though Chaoser did nothing himself to get caught. I'm saying that I personally don't like it, but if everyone else playing on TL mafia doesn't care, or think it's a problem, then I'm fine if something just is added to the OP of PM games, along the lines of "Keep in mind impersonation outside of PMs is possible", to warn players, and also give a buffer to new players to stop them from outing their entire team. I think it's a pretty crappy way to play the game, if let's say Nooby McGee was playing for the first time, and someone posing as one of his scumbuddies contacted him in IRC saying "What do you think of our team mates so far?" and he gave the entire list of mafia over to town on day 1, because he didn't realize that IRC impersonation was possible. It's situations like that I want to avoid, because it isn't mafia, it's just dumb, and that's just one example. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On October 24 2011 07:12 Qatol wrote: Show nested quote + On October 24 2011 07:09 Mr. Wiggles wrote: I'm saying that I personally don't like it, but if everyone else playing on TL mafia doesn't care, or think it's a problem, then I'm fine if something just is added to the OP of PM games, along the lines of "Keep in mind impersonation outside of PMs is possible", to warn players, and also give a buffer to new players to stop them from outing their entire team. I think it's a pretty crappy way to play the game, if let's say Nooby McGee was playing for the first time, and someone posing as one of his scumbuddies contacted him in IRC saying "What do you think of our team mates so far?" and he gave the entire list of mafia over to town on day 1, because he didn't realize that IRC impersonation was possible. It's situations like that I want to avoid, because it isn't mafia, it's just dumb, and that's just one example. I absolutely agree that it's a crappy way to play the game. I can add something about using IRC at your own risk to the model OP if you like. That sounds fine, just something to let newer players know that they shouldn't trust everything on IRC necessarily. For example, I wasn't really aware of it, and I'm sure Cyber wasn't aware of it when he confirmed himself and Chaoser as scum. I'm just glad he didn't out more of us. On October 24 2011 07:16 JimboSilvers wrote: The problem with the irc impersonation is the fact that i could have caught every scum that ever logged into irc with it. I didn't because I realized that it was game breaking, and stopped. It's extremely powerful, especially when people are unaware of it like they were this game. That being said, i DON'T think it should be banned. Those avenues should be open, and people should be allowed to be creative with their play (like honeypot). Looked down on? Sure, but banned? No. I think that people should be made aware of it, so that they can defend against it, but I really feel like it is in the same grain as bread-crumbing roles, and alignment PMs, which have been traditionally allowed. Mafia is a multi-faceted game, and I want it to remain that way. Creativity should always be rewarded. I still think it should be a host decision, though, and it would just be enforced in the same way as any other rules. Most of the rules on TL Mafia are enforced by the honour system more than anything else. For example, there's not really a way to tell if two players are breaking a no-PM rule unless one of them outs the other. Same thing for breaking into someone's TL account to look at their role PM. Most of this just relies an an inherent amount of trust in the players. So, making it a host decision shouldn't make more work for the hosts, as it would just work the same way as most every other rule in the game. This is the same way role PM bread-crumbing works too, some hosts allow it, others put example PMs in their OP to negate it, and others modkill you if you mention anything from a PM sent from a host. On October 24 2011 07:21 wherebugsgo wrote: Wiggles, itcertainly seems like people are QQing about it when they say that it's against the spirit of the game. It's a form of infiltration. Politics. That's what this game was about. Mafia could've impersonated town to try and get information. Mafia could've tried to get into town circles to try and sabotage them from the inside. Instead, you guys were complacent, your play was bland, and you all suffered for it. I'll put this here: Show nested quote + On October 12 2011 11:47 Protactinium wrote: Roles are now out. You have ~24 hours (until 03:00 GMT (+00:00) tomorrow) to turn in your number picks. Announcement: OriginalName and redFF are sharing the account JACCUZISPLAT. As a word of warning: This is more than just a standard mafia game. It is a game of intrigue and politics. Plotting and scheming will go a long way to further your goals. Tell me, other than sandro, which scum even attempted to scheme or plan to sabotage town goals? Finally, chaoser was going to get shot well before the IRC debacle. To say that he was caught by the IRC impersonation is a misrepresentation, only cheese was caught that way. This isn't about town or mafia, or even this game. I don't really like it, because while it might be creative, it doesn't really require any skill or finesse. There's not much skill involved in pretending to be someone else and getting them to claim to you because they think you're their team mate. Like I've said, you could win the game on day 1 this way, if mafia aren't aware of the strategy. Also, when I say Chaoser was caught, that's because he was. It doesn't matter if you though he was scummy or not beforehand, I was just using him as an example. If Player A responds as a scumbuddy Player B, that pretty much confirms both Player A and Player B as scum. You just caught two mafia, doing nothing. Your line of reasoning doesn't hold, either. Saying it's a game of intrigue and politics could be used to justify any action. What if someone impersonated the mods in IRC and had people claim to them? Is that OK because it's scheming, and this is a game of intrigue and politics? There isn't a rule against it explicitly in the OP, so it must be fine, right? This is where the "spirit of the game" comes in, because players should be able to use their own judgement for what's acceptable or not in a game. The OP can't cover everything. That's also why we should discuss things like this, that fall into a somewhat grey area, just like we discussed account-sharing before, when that came up. So, judging by the discussion, people don't think this is a problem, so I'm going to drop it. The warning in the OP should be good enough to warn people about it, so we don't get unaware mafia handing out all their members to town. (Also funny because of rule number 2) It's important they know, because it's almost required that some of them use a public IRC if it exists, or else they just let town set up a giant circle where mafia can't see what's happening and can't influence it in any way. I still think it should ultimately be a host decision, though. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On October 24 2011 07:59 wherebugsgo wrote: Show nested quote + On October 24 2011 07:51 Mr. Wiggles wrote: On October 24 2011 07:12 Qatol wrote: On October 24 2011 07:09 Mr. Wiggles wrote: I'm saying that I personally don't like it, but if everyone else playing on TL mafia doesn't care, or think it's a problem, then I'm fine if something just is added to the OP of PM games, along the lines of "Keep in mind impersonation outside of PMs is possible", to warn players, and also give a buffer to new players to stop them from outing their entire team. I think it's a pretty crappy way to play the game, if let's say Nooby McGee was playing for the first time, and someone posing as one of his scumbuddies contacted him in IRC saying "What do you think of our team mates so far?" and he gave the entire list of mafia over to town on day 1, because he didn't realize that IRC impersonation was possible. It's situations like that I want to avoid, because it isn't mafia, it's just dumb, and that's just one example. I absolutely agree that it's a crappy way to play the game. I can add something about using IRC at your own risk to the model OP if you like. That sounds fine, just something to let newer players know that they shouldn't trust everything on IRC necessarily. For example, I wasn't really aware of it, and I'm sure Cyber wasn't aware of it when he confirmed himself and Chaoser as scum. I'm just glad he didn't out more of us. On October 24 2011 07:16 JimboSilvers wrote: The problem with the irc impersonation is the fact that i could have caught every scum that ever logged into irc with it. I didn't because I realized that it was game breaking, and stopped. It's extremely powerful, especially when people are unaware of it like they were this game. That being said, i DON'T think it should be banned. Those avenues should be open, and people should be allowed to be creative with their play (like honeypot). Looked down on? Sure, but banned? No. I think that people should be made aware of it, so that they can defend against it, but I really feel like it is in the same grain as bread-crumbing roles, and alignment PMs, which have been traditionally allowed. Mafia is a multi-faceted game, and I want it to remain that way. Creativity should always be rewarded. I still think it should be a host decision, though, and it would just be enforced in the same way as any other rules. Most of the rules on TL Mafia are enforced by the honour system more than anything else. For example, there's not really a way to tell if two players are breaking a no-PM rule unless one of them outs the other. Same thing for breaking into someone's TL account to look at their role PM. Most of this just relies an an inherent amount of trust in the players. So, making it a host decision shouldn't make more work for the hosts, as it would just work the same way as most every other rule in the game. This is the same way role PM bread-crumbing works too, some hosts allow it, others put example PMs in their OP to negate it, and others modkill you if you mention anything from a PM sent from a host. On October 24 2011 07:21 wherebugsgo wrote: Wiggles, itcertainly seems like people are QQing about it when they say that it's against the spirit of the game. It's a form of infiltration. Politics. That's what this game was about. Mafia could've impersonated town to try and get information. Mafia could've tried to get into town circles to try and sabotage them from the inside. Instead, you guys were complacent, your play was bland, and you all suffered for it. I'll put this here: On October 12 2011 11:47 Protactinium wrote: Roles are now out. You have ~24 hours (until 03:00 GMT (+00:00) tomorrow) to turn in your number picks. Announcement: OriginalName and redFF are sharing the account JACCUZISPLAT. As a word of warning: This is more than just a standard mafia game. It is a game of intrigue and politics. Plotting and scheming will go a long way to further your goals. Tell me, other than sandro, which scum even attempted to scheme or plan to sabotage town goals? Finally, chaoser was going to get shot well before the IRC debacle. To say that he was caught by the IRC impersonation is a misrepresentation, only cheese was caught that way. This isn't about town or mafia, or even this game. I don't really like it, because while it might be creative, it doesn't really require any skill or finesse. There's not much skill involved in pretending to be someone else and getting them to claim to you because they think you're their team mate. Like I've said, you could win the game on day 1 this way, if mafia aren't aware of the strategy. Also, when I say Chaoser was caught, that's because he was. It doesn't matter if you though he was scummy or not beforehand, I was just using him as an example. If Player A responds as a scumbuddy Player B, that pretty much confirms both Player A and Player B as scum. You just caught two mafia, doing nothing. Your line of reasoning doesn't hold, either. Saying it's a game of intrigue and politics could be used to justify any action. What if someone impersonated the mods in IRC and had people claim to them? Is that OK because it's scheming, and this is a game of intrigue and politics? There isn't a rule against it explicitly in the OP, so it must be fine, right? This is where the "spirit of the game" comes in, because players should be able to use their own judgement for what's acceptable or not in a game. The OP can't cover everything. That's also why we should discuss things like this, that fall into a somewhat grey area, just like we discussed account-sharing before, when that came up. So, judging by the discussion, people don't think this is a problem, so I'm going to drop it. The warning in the OP should be good enough to warn people about it, so we don't get unaware mafia handing out all their members to town. (Also funny because of rule number 2) It's important they know, because it's almost required that some of them use a public IRC if it exists, or else they just let town set up a giant circle where mafia can't see what's happening and can't influence it in any way. I still think it should ultimately be a host decision, though. Of course my logic holds. Impersonating the mods is already illegal because you're not allowed to impersonate people who are not participating in the game. There was a precedent for that and it might not be in the OP but that's not even what I'm suggesting. And again, this completely ignores a multitude of different things. Foolishness early in the game trashed the idea of public IRC. He received PMs from myself and Hiro; I asked him why he would say such a thing as town. Is it not clear now why an experienced player would think public IRC is useless? (and IRC in general is an unreliable form of communication) Using the excuse that this game was a game of "intrigue and politics" isn't great reasoning for allowing impersonation in IRC, then. Obviously there's a line somewhere, if you can't impersonate people outside the game, as obviously that falls under "intrigue". So, there has to be a different justification for allowing it. I don't care if the mods allowed it in this game, what I'm talking about, is if we should allow this in future games. Also, public IRC is not that great because it doesn't let you pressure anyone, as people can feign AFK to avoid real-time pressure, and not everyone has all the logs because not all logs are posted, and no one's signed in all the time. So, you cause an information disadvantage for many players, without really gaining anything when compared to just talking in the thread. There's probably many other reasons why a public IRC isn't that great, but I don't think Foolishness had impersonation in mind when he said that. Finally, of course it's about mafia and town in this game. Mafia did nothing to stop town from infiltrating their circles. It was carelessness and complacency. If I was scum I would have my own private, passworded IRC channel (if we were to use IRC at all). In fact, Chezinu house had a more secret IRC channel than probably anyone else. And again, it's not really much about tech savvyness, or whatever. You can figure out how to password lock and make a channel secret in about five seconds on google. You can ask people to do PM verification in a matter of seconds. IMO this kind of thing is a complete non issue because of the number of ways to avoid getting duped. I think the OP change is completely fair and good for newer players, but there is absolutely no excuse, IMO, for more experienced players. This doesn't have anything to do with circle infiltration. Cyber wasn't caught because we had a mafia channel that we didn't set to invisible and someone /whois'ed him, it has to do with someone joining the channel and pretending to be chaoser and then Cyber trusting that he really was. IRC impersonation adds barely anything to the game for town except for trapping mafia members who aren't aware of the strategy, but who are pretty much forced to use the public IRC so they don't have an information disadvantage, to avoid suspicion, and to stop a giant town circle from forming. At that point, you aren't playing mafia. You're just taking advantage of players who aren't as knowledgeable about certain strategies as you. So, explain this to me. What does IRC impersonation add to the game? On October 24 2011 07:59 Radfield wrote: Show nested quote + On October 24 2011 07:31 bumatlarge wrote: Ah you were the BB radfield, great minds think alike! Indeed, and you probably didn't realize it, but you basically confirmed yourself when you told me you went for BB. It was funny because of how careful you were being as to whether or not you got it, when of course I already had it I think things like IRC impersonation are outside what I would generally consider the limits of the game. At that point you are playing a different game than what I initially signed up for. After this incident, it's highly likely no one from this game, or anyone watching this game, will get caught again, but I would expect that if this continued en-mass, many new players would get burned. How do people feel about things like IRC and Skype in general? Personally I feel a PM only game would be far more fun than a PM game with real time chat. Certainly more balanced in favor of scum. Many players here also talk a lot outside of mafia games, which gives them a massive head start towards deducing their buddies alignment. Do people prefer real-time chat in games? ALSO...... NO MODKILLS!! I can't remember the last game I played with no modkills. Sure sinani was cut a bunch of slack, but still.... no modkills I personally like games with only PM, and no real-time component. For group discussion, allow players to create QTs that they must provide to the host, as well. On October 24 2011 08:05 chaoser wrote: Show nested quote + On October 24 2011 07:51 Ace wrote: Awesome. So this is no longer a game of Mafia but a game of seeing who can get closest to breaking the rules or taking advantage of silly players. Pathetic. +1 cause I CAN in this subforum MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA +1 | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On October 25 2011 08:45 wherebugsgo wrote: If only scum had puppets why would anyone ever reply to them? Scum would reply to work together or gain information Town would reply to see if scum would slip and let out any information. I'd say let people PM the puppets, though, like what I said. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On October 25 2011 09:14 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Show nested quote + On October 25 2011 09:07 Mr. Wiggles wrote: On October 25 2011 08:45 wherebugsgo wrote: If only scum had puppets why would anyone ever reply to them? Scum would reply to work together or gain information Town would reply to see if scum would slip and let out any information. I'd say let people PM the puppets, though, like what I said. I say no PM'ing puppets because puppets PM'ing each other means town can't push puppets for information nearly as easily. What if the rule was 'Puppets can't pm each other'? Another solution would be to give each mafia family it's own puppet, but the puppets can't actually PM each other, only players in the game. This will give mafia a way to contact and blackmail each other, and lets town try to pose as mafia to the puppet to gain information. You could give mayor a puppet too, maybe. :p (I like puppets) And let people PM the puppets, which I meant, but didn't explicitly write. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
Either give mafia a form of safe communication, like puppets, or take out free PMs and introduce anonymous PM roles that mafia can pick if they want to use diplomacy or communicate. In this set-up, I can't think of any good ways of contacting and actually being able to effectively work with other scum families besides a role like puppeteer paired with a DT, or just claiming scum openly and hoping people will contact you, which you could then check and verify to be scum, or hand out an anonymous QT, or something like that. If someone PMs you claiming to be scum, and that they think you are scum, you're never going to give them any information because there's a high likelihood they're just town fishing for information. If you PM someone claiming to be scum, then if they're actually scum, they'll think the same, or if they're town, they'll be more suspicious of you. I can't really think of a good way to contact other scum families in an open PM set-up like this, where you can actually work together. Open PMs lets town coordinate a lot more, and set up safe-guards for trying to fake-claim scum, and makes it so that anyone can PM you, and thus you must be suspicious of everyone. In a game where scum are meant to coordinate and use politics, there wasn't really a good outlet for them to do so. Like I said, the only ways I see, is use of the puppet, or claiming scum if you're outed by a DT or about to be lynched, or if you picked Hero or something in conjunction with a protective role. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
Don't you see that with: Knowing that, why didn't you guys just PM people and see what you thought? Once you get in a situation where you claim scum, either they play along or they ditch/out you. If you get outed in the thread, and you have said reasonably "pro-town" things behind the scenes to well established town players, you'll be fine. Example: sandro. You can't really accomplish anything, or anything you can accomplish will take several cycles to happen?If you contact another player claiming scum, their first assumption will almost always be that you're town. There's no reason to believe otherwise, and to do so would be idiocy, unless you have an alignment check or something, and even then you should be wary. So, that means that you're stuck in a situation where you have to play coy with them and straddle the line between "I'm really town" and "I'm scum" in your communications. You can't drop enough details to confirm yourself, because then there's the potential you gave away information to town and confirmed yourself as scum, or you gave them something to blackmail you with with nothing in return. So, you can either both play along and play footsies, without actually accomplishing anything concrete besides dropping little hints at each other for fear that your counter-part is town, or you can outright claim, and run the risk that you're going to get screwed for it, when preservation of your team is more important than cooperation with the other mafia families. "Pro-town" safeguards don't work, because then you're posing as town, and thus can't start any other communications once you've been outed. No mafia will trust you again. So, sure it might save you from a lynch, for a day or two, but it stops all possibility of forming a connection personally. Basically, all scum are going to keep up the pretense of being town in PM, so that they have an out if they get outed in thread or the person they're talking to is town. This stops any real effective communication, unless you feel like gambling. No mafia to my knowledge felt like gambling this game, and so no communication between families was established. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On October 27 2011 03:46 sandroba wrote: I had little to no impact late game and I honestly don't know how I could have done better, given the situation I put myself in. Happy Birthday! | ||
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