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Some things I learned from this game:
-Until sinani starts seriously trying to play this game I am going to be pushing hard for his policy lynch no matter what in future games (I have to shamefully admit that half the reason I replaced into GMarshal's Pony game was to get sinani lynched).
-My day 1 push is always wrong. I believe this to be so because I have very, very poor ability from being able to distinguish stupidly posting Townies from scum.
-I need to push Mig harder whenever he says stupid shit.
-The reason I didn't push BA harder after his stupid shot was because I almost expect Town Vigs to take retarded shots now. I thought about how scummy his shot looked but then I thought about how youngminii shot ON 6 hours into day 1 as a Town Day Vig too. I was able to reaffirm a scum read on him due to his reaction to my breadcrumb though.
-That breadcrumb was probably dirty play. This is why in any games I host I will be posting example PMs so people can't do that. I got the idea from the game I played as scum where half the Town confirmed themselves by comparing their win conditions and role PMs (Caller's game). Sorry Ace!
-Palmar was the most obvious scum in the world on Day 3. That's why you shouldn't rely on power roles for everything!
-I feel like had sandroba had the time to post the first few days the game might have turned out very differently.
-I never would have caught chaos until the point where he had an obvious agenda lynching bum Day 3. Actually I pretty much just ignored all his posts because I was focusing on my other reads. Oops.
Thanks for hosting Ace.
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I claimed before the game started 
y u no shoot me mafia? I thought chaos was pretty obvious, but jackal being town and BA being scum threw me off a lot. Dumb roles getting in the way of logic.
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Thanks for the game Ace.
I really wish I'd gotten to play this out further, it developed.. in an interesting manner. Ah well.
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rofl JeeJee
When scum don't hit you N1 Serial Killers do.
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I haven't played in a while, I didn't realise that jeejee was the new radfield, sorry about that lol
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Should have made Jeejee the PGO. Would have fixed everything.
Town should have realized that Jackal was actually town really fast after the people pushing for his vig/lynch flipped mafia. (Also, if you thought about his play and his claim, they make perfect sense from his perspective. Not voting for palmar should not have been condemning, as it fit with his claim. He checked palmar as innocent.)
+ Show Spoiler +That was an extremely entertaining game. I had a fun time trying to figure things out.
iGrok got on my scum list right away, then got pulled off once I realized that he wasn't voting. (His nervousness told me that he had a power, but I incorrectly thought that he was scum before I saw the lack of aggression, something that denotes blue, not red.)
Chaos13 got on my scum list really early on because of his vote on GGQ which had bad reasoning, and looked like a "easy vote" scum move. I more or less forgot about him after that though.
Palmar got on my scum list because of his scummy vote on TAA, and his otherwise lackluster contributions. I wouldn't have pushed his lynch until his claim though, which was pretty badly put together.
BA got on my list because of his iGrok shot, and otherwise not contributing much at all.
Mig never got on my radar at all. I forgot that he was playing a few times.
Jackal was obvious town after he wouldn't vote Palmar oddly enough, as that validated his claim, though it took me a while to realize that it all made sense if he actually was a parity cop. (Also, the three people who tried to get him to switch votes were people that he was very suspicious of, so that made sense as well.)
I thought that Bum was the fourth scum, though I had some misgivings about that. (Especially after the pgo claim.) Oddly enough, if I were mafia and someone said something like "I think everyone has roles" I would have NEVER shot that person. There is no reason for a townie to give that information out, and I would have immediately assumed that Bum was veteran, or some other role that is trying to get shot.
I thought that GGQ might have been the last scum also, because he disappeared, but I realized once it became apparent that there was an SK that he could also have been that too. I was gone for the last part of the day, so I didn't really get a chance to guess who was what.
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United States4714 Posts
Kav that is exactly what we thought about bum. After bum's first statement we considered that he could be a blue but eventually settled on him likely being a vet or VT trying to draw a shot. No medic/dt was ever going to make that statement at the start of the game. So we only briefly ever considered shooting him.
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So this game, we tried to do a round table as discussed earlier The New TL Mafia Metagame thread. If we ever do this in the future, it probably needs to be to be more structured, as I think the discussion suffered from people not knowing exactly what to talk about. Either way, I think it is an interesting start. Unfortunately I wasn't able to comment in the second half of the game as things were getting interesting, but hopefully you will find some interesting contributions from everyone throughout. The discussion certainly not as detailed and in depth as Ace's but we were all discussing from a player point of view - we had no information that wouldn't be available to the players.
Link to the discussion here.
*Note: To all players participating the actual discussion the url has changed to accommodate for future Round Table Discussions so that is not so, well...frivolous.
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thats pretty cool incog, hope i can join one of those at some point 
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Sheesh, it's frustrating to play so seriously and invest so much effort without support from your team. I probably won't play as seriously as I did in this one in any games on TL for some time.
Jackal, there's only a SINGLE thing I wish you had done differently in this game.
On September 15 2011 11:59 Zona wrote:
Hi, if you're town and voting bumatlarge, you need to switch to palmar immediately.
Assume Bayonnet is telling the truth - mafia is preventing Palmar from being lynched.
Assume Bayonnet is lying - then Bayonnet is lying to avoid voting Palmar.
Right here. I gave you what I thought was 100% unbreakable, completely logical evidence that Palmar was scum, regardless of whether or not you thought I was scum, Bayonnet was scum, or anything else that happened in the game...(like your alignment checks), and you didn't switch. Since you didn't switch and spouted a line about "go[ing] with the info I have", I was convinced you were another mafia, like Bayonnet, trying to avoid lynching Palmar with some shitty reasoning. Sigh. And depending on how quickly Mig sent in his second vote, you switching over could have changed everything. Plus I would then have entertained the idea that both Mig/chaos were scum instead of thinking chaos was the 4th earlier, then switching to thinking Mig later on.
On September 19 2011 13:59 Mig wrote:
Kav that is exactly what we thought about bum. After bum's first statement we considered that he could be a blue but eventually settled on him likely being a vet or VT trying to draw a shot. No medic/dt was ever going to make that statement at the start of the game. So we only briefly ever considered shooting him.
I agree. You're more likely to mislead town than mafia since mafia already knows you're town.
Palmar was actually 2nd scummiest in my eyes when I was rereading to look for my (forced) shot n1, and if bumatlarge hadn't made that post, I would have sent in a shot for Palmar.
But also imagine if wherebugsgo didn't roleblock me n1. That would have been hilariously bad for town: Shooting bum and getting shot back, plus another shot on me from mafia to muddy the waters as to how much KP there actually was...lol.
I wish I hadn't convinced myself that there couldn't be a SK by working through possible 11/4/1 setups and deciding that there wasn't any I would consider balanced. When nobody claimed vig after I kept asking, I had to start doubting that there was another town vig...I should have doubted more.
I have a question for the mafia though: Why didn't you guys jump on the d2 bumatlarge mislynch that I offered to you on a silver platter?
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United States4714 Posts
I attacked bum a little bit and put it out there that he would be my #2 candidate after sinani. So if it had picked up any steam I would have been set up to jump over.
A big part of why I didn't commit too much to it tho was the fact that so much of your case against bum was based on your breadcrumb. The breadcrumb was so well hidden that I don't think anyone would have ever seen it if you didn't point it out (nobody on the mafia team saw it). If there had been more of an emphasis on the rest of your analysis I think more townies would have been willing to listen and switch over to him.
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Sorry for sucking ass early on, I was pretty busy at that time and didn't have enough time to read or post (almost got replaced) =(
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Why people gotta hate? I was decently active, but not useless :/ maybe you can't imagine me as not scum :D
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Bum I thought you were town :D
As PGO IMO you should've led town and just made yourself a night 1 target. 1 free scum hit by simply scumhunting. You could've acted like a vet to draw hits, and this way it would've been unlikely for a townie (such as me) to visit you. I was basically looking for those two things (is someone trying to draw a hit, and are they making sense?)
That's precisely what Zona did day 1, and it's why I protected her. She was making the most sense despite me disagreeing on one or two things she was saying. I had a massive pro town read on her and the shot confirmed it. However, she wasn't trying to draw that hit. I knew you were (first post) but then the reason there existed doubt about your alignment was because you didn't do enough scumhunting IMO. There was the possibility of being a nk proof SK, who would obviously want to draw a night hit from someone.
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This was pretty fun game to follow, though apparently I am not that good at distinguishing bad players from scum as I would have liked to believe =/
Also Incognito, your effort to reform our image isn't working :p :
![[image loading]](http://i56.tinypic.com/2q0jaja.png)
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We didn't shoot bumatlarge because of that first post you made. No town power role is going to say that except someone who wants to get hit. We were thinking vet and I'm very glad we didn't hit you based on your actual role. We never considered the possibility of a PGO.
I may have been the most well-hidden of scum near the end of the game, but Mig or BA surviving was our only hope of winning. We needed their ability to manipulate things during the day. After night 2 my role was pretty much useless, there were so many people dead and we made the decision to forgo secrecy for an endgame blitz. If Mig had been shot instead of me GGQ probably would have won.
Great reading in the Round Table, that's an awesome idea. It's interesting to see the analysis you guys had there. I'm really glad none of you were in the game, or I would have been screwed early on. I got lucky this game. As scum I always like to push bad lynches, cause hell, scum never do that so blatantly. My reasoning against GGQ was shitty though, and I definitely could have improved on that. With all the random votes and bickering at the beginning of the game there were so many chances to make a non-scummy vote and contribute to the chaos that I completely missed cause I was stuck thinking "Don't make a scummy vote, don't make a scummy vote."
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On September 19 2011 14:44 Zona wrote:Sheesh, it's frustrating to play so seriously and invest so much effort without support from your team. I probably won't play as seriously as I did in this one in any games on TL for some time. Jackal, there's only a SINGLE thing I wish you had done differently in this game. Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 11:59 Zona wrote:
Hi, if you're town and voting bumatlarge, you need to switch to palmar immediately.
Assume Bayonnet is telling the truth - mafia is preventing Palmar from being lynched.
Assume Bayonnet is lying - then Bayonnet is lying to avoid voting Palmar. Right here. I gave you what I thought was 100% unbreakable, completely logical evidence that Palmar was scum, regardless of whether or not you thought I was scum, Bayonnet was scum, or anything else that happened in the game...(like your alignment checks), and you didn't switch. Since you didn't switch and spouted a line about "go[ing] with the info I have", I was convinced you were another mafia, like Bayonnet, trying to avoid lynching Palmar with some shitty reasoning. Sigh. And depending on how quickly Mig sent in his second vote, you switching over could have changed everything. Plus I would then have entertained the idea that both Mig/chaos were scum instead of thinking chaos was the 4th earlier, then switching to thinking Mig later on.
At that point I completely lost it. You had just spent 2 days trying to get Bum lynched. Then you did a complete 180. There wasn't a single person in this game that I had a town feeling about. And when Palmar claimed I couldn't come up with a single scenario in my mind that would compel scum to do what he just did. And I was right. He had no reason. If I had checked anybody else for my original null test this game would have been completely different. I picked Palmar because he had recently been dieing early as a townie. And I derped that one big time. He's died early as a townie in his last couple of games because I was the one that killed him on night 1. 
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Can't really fault Jackal on what happened.
Maybe next time you'll choose someone who appears townie instead of relying on meta to guess alignment :p
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On September 19 2011 21:23 Hesmyrr wrote:Also Incognito, your effort to reform our image isn't working :p :
Fixed.
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im always right with my day 1 vote, seriously screwed up my presentation though.
On September 10 2011 12:52 Mig wrote:
Zona I am here!
I voted TAA for the same reasons everyone else did. Inconsistent opinions, contradicting himself and his play was far far below what I know he can play as town. Look at his play in WaW2 (scum) and compare it to his town play in RTM. He can be quite good and do a lot of scum hunting but this game he obviously was putting 0 effort in. But looking back on it it was a dumb vote. I should have put more weight into looking at the people who were on his bandwagon. Curu, Sandroba, palmar, iGrok are the 4 people I am most suspicious of and all of them jumped on TAA very quickly.
Curu and palmar both went out of their way to defend iGrok yesterday. Not only did they defend him saying they thought he was town but Curu then began the TAA bandwagon. His play is extremely similar to XLIV where we were both mafia. I was in danger of being lynched early so curu started up counter lynches against weak targets to save me.
this was a big tell
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EPT
