Some hardliners won't allow any form of singlepayer system.
Taking a step in the direction of single-payer caused the biggest congressional defeat in 60 years for Democrats and is one of the things imperiling Barack Obama's re-election, why do you think that a real single-payer system would cause anything but a very angry rejection by the American electorate?
~40% of Americans identify themselves as "conservative" (whatever that means to them) and ~20% "liberal" (whatever that means to them), remember.
This "the Republicans won't let anything happen" line was already tried last year... didn't work. Turns out the people who showed up to vote were pretty damn happy that the GOP was the "Party of No."
Just some things to consider while you're hashing out how the GOP is obstructionist and how bullcrap it is. It worked. It'll probably work again for next year. People wouldn't have demoted Nancy Pelosi if they'd disliked the Republicans' strategy.
A lot of people in his country wish they could just erase Barack Obama's piss-poor presidency. Bush's too before anyone gets their panties too twisted. Next year = deathmatch with the way Obama's numbers are (down; depressed; in shouting distance of Bushian levels, whatever).
This. To fly in the face of the trends on this site [as an aside rather mind boggiling, ive been on many a gamer sites and there usually fairly even split but teamliquid is like...overwhelmingly socialist, not liberal but literally socialist, its bizarre] what I want in my next president is the balls and the capability to undue everything Obama has done, and the majority of the policies hes retained from Bush.
What you need to remember is that a large portion of this site is not American and that the rest of the western world diverged from the United States about fifty years ago. You're shocked that we're "literally socialist" but to us you're a relic of a failed system that we advanced beyond. It's simply a matter of perspective.
It's not like an international gaming site is a novel concept to me.
Then it shouldn't be mindboggling to you that there is support for the system that exists in the vast majority of first world countries. Socialist isn't even a dirty word over here.
I would be very, very surprised if you could find a site with an international user base that had views in line with the American right. Your right wing is batshit insane by any non American standard. The same applies with religion because the proportion of people who are actively religious in America is very much out of line with the rest of the western world. Your country is weird and interactions with the rest of the world will seem surprising and even alien.
The right wing in this country looks that way to a lot of people inside the U.S. too, not just other countries. Yeah, they're bat-shit insane.
I have always wondered how christianity has been transformed...[into] the gospel of wealth and corruption.
That is an absurdly simplistic and ignorant claim. Many many Christians would not take their religion to be supportive of wealth and corruption. The opinion of televangelists and whoever else you claim to be mending Christianity to their own ends does not define Christianity to the majority of its followers. Your statement hints at an assumption that Christians are sheep, just like the economically disadvantaged whites who the staffer assumes (emphasis on assumes) to be influenced by televangelists. Anyone with a sliver of knowledge about the religion knows that it can't be simplified into something that is corrupt.
Yeah, televangelism =/= a representative picture of Christianity. Not saying there isn't corruption in the religion, but making blanket statements like that is ridiculous.
On September 08 2011 06:56 Nanikure wrote: God reading articles like these make me pissed off and completely depressed at the same time. I live in a mormon area so I'm surrounded by mouth-breathers who ignore logic and rationality and regurgitate the same kind of nonsense that the author described in that article.
I'm sure we are far past the point where we have become a complete joke in the eyes of the international community, and although I know that there are so many good people in this country, the amount of sheer idiocy, corruption, and greed makes me wish that I didn't have to associate myself with it.
I used to think that once all of the "older generation" died off with their old ideas in about 40 years we'd be left with a more enlightened type of society. With so many people still being indoctrinated, I'm starting to think that this may just be a naive assumption by myself. Everything sucks.
Well, my country is probably worse when it comes to greed and corruption. The only difference is we don't have the military might to spread our "way of life" to countries around the world that disagree with us. As far as I know, the international community is mostly pissed of at USA because of that and consider USA a joke because of that.
On September 08 2011 08:22 Bulldog654 wrote: I support the Republican party because it is being forced back to its original principles by an ever increasingly involved populace, demanding a return to limited government. The Federal Government has proven itself to be a poor custodian of my money, and now I and others like me are demanding to keep more of our money, and this includes rich people, who always seem to be demonized by those on the left.
In exchange for "taking care of us" by providing many social programs of questionable effectiveness at the cost of the productive, Democrats demand that i cede rights that I will not compromise on. Bottom line even though I'm apparently a fool for having religious beliefs and also lack a sliver of insight, I am tired of working and seeing all that money taken from my check and knowing its being wasted by an increasingly corrupt and fat federal government.
Let me state though, for the record I think it is absolutely foolish for anyone in this country to think things will get better for us if only <insert political party> were in power. I am currently supporting the Republican party under the admittedly very foolish hope that they will get the message I and the majority of my voting countrymen are trying to send them.
At least you can sarcasticly recognize you're problems. I love how you just say, Cede my rights! .... What are you specifically talking about?
"I am tired of working and seeing all that money taken from my check and knowing its being wasted by an increasingly corrupt and fat federal government."
LoL. I think a large portion of the country is "Fat".. The government has been drowning the country in lies since the end of Franklin. In fact it's my personal belief, before this.... Idea that America was the worlds super power. It was a perfectly stable and healthy country. (it's funny what thinking you're best can do)
I knew it was bad, but I didn't think it was THAT bad. Part of that stuff sounds like pre 1933 Germany, not a present day democracy (might have to start using quotation marks when talking about the US "democracy").
It's articles like this that make me glad I live in a country with more than 2 political parties. We have our crooked politicians like everyone else, but it's nice to have alternatives available, rather than choosing between the lesser of two evils, so to speak.
looks like an intersiting read. I always wonder though if any of this stuff he talks about is embelished at all. he did LEAVE the party however, so couldn't he just be trying to give it a bad name?
not that the GOP or dem party need that anymore, buthey
The whole party system is a joke. There are good individuals in government but they cannot act as individuals or base decisions off of constituent needs because they MUST do what the party tells them to do which greedy individuals at the top are controlling. The architecture of the party system is very corrupt. Even if a member of Congress wants to do the right thing there is extreme pressure just to do what they are told to do.
I hope we see a rise of independents but it's extremely doubtful. It's such a catch 22 with the way our voting system works. There is no incentive to vote independent and everyone just seems to vote so someone else can't win.
On September 09 2011 00:09 Rob28 wrote: It's articles like this that make me glad I live in a country with more than 2 political parties. We have our crooked politicians like everyone else, but it's nice to have alternatives available, rather than choosing between the lesser of two evils, so to speak.
But with Layton's death (Leader of the Left side party, NDP)... Harper (Leader of the Right side party, Conservative) will have his way for the next few years.
I feel sorry for you guys in the US. After reading that article, I am disgusted, appaled and enraged that something like this is allowed to happen in broad daylight and that although everyone knows something is wrong, not much can be done.
On September 08 2011 06:49 zimz wrote: Apple use to have a manufacturing plant where i lived, but a couple years ago they moved manufacturing to China. My friends use to work at the assembly line for Apple. Fuck Apple!
Ya, how dare them employ those evil more productive chinese
not more productive, but more CHEAP labor. It's not only that but its an American company, who makes most of its money off Americans, but sending the jobs to China instead. use your brain.
Productiveness is measured by the output after including incomes and expenses. Given that, Chinese ARE more productive period. You are just being a nationalistic idiot.
Of course i have a problem with it. American companies that make most of their money off Americans, yet not hiring Americans. watching Americas economy go down because of this business tactic, and not wanting it, is logical. it is not idiotic. think before you talk.
Many people on TL is just hating on Americans. Its like a trend or something. im sick of it.
im not surprised gotunk! whos from a 3rd world country. who's probably benefiting from American outsourcing talking shit.
The only person I've actually seen condescend on others due to their nationality in this thread is you and you're American. You're contradicting yourself in the worst way. In addition, Apple has made a hell of a lot of money from sales in China as well as the rest of the world. Apple outsourcing production is part of the 'free market' which America has promoted and benefited from for years. Maybe you and your friend should either get an education and do something that the Chinese can't do to get a good job and wage, otherwise suck it up and be prepared to compete with them with regards to wages. Sulking on an internet forum and bashing on the Chinese will not help.
On September 09 2011 00:09 Rob28 wrote: It's articles like this that make me glad I live in a country with more than 2 political parties. We have our crooked politicians like everyone else, but it's nice to have alternatives available, rather than choosing between the lesser of two evils, so to speak.
Every country is marching in the same general direction. Debates in every country get more and more polarized with only the extreme opinions making the most noise and getting the most attention. You end up with only red vs blue. Pro-skub vs Anti-skub. All debates hinge on who shrieks one of the two main opinions the loudest. Zero discussion on compromise and moderation. For all of their insanity, the Republicans are absolute geniuses when it comes to politics. They literally held the country at gun-point during the debt-limit raise last month and in the end they managed to generate MORE support. In a fair and just world they would be run out of town and replaced with people that give a crap about the well-being of the country they're supposed to protect.
I think it's only a matter of time before every country starts acting this way. The US just beat everyone to the punch because we've got a more unscrupulous political process and a big religious base. They can say as much crazy stuff as they want, and they get away with it. Once they realized this kind of sensationalism gets them lots of attention (thus support), they dialed the crazy up to 11.
Until voters start punishing this behaviour, it will continue to get worse. I have little hope for the Jersey Shore generation.
It's funny I remember reading about this in a media & politics class as well as a political psychology class I took in college. It's amazing how wording something a certain way sends a message to the people. In 2006 both parties were discussing the plans for the future of the Iraq war and President Bush wanted to send in more troops. It was the difference between like a "surge" and some other word. The way it gets absorbed by the media and then eventually consumed by the everyday American is fascinating. Republicans, hate them or love them, know how to send a message that intimately touches the American people to support something they don't necessarily want to support. Democrats are not very good at doing this as they're playing on the counter-offensive in this battle. They're already two steps behind and it shows when the policy makers are typically the Republicans while the Democrats just get shoved around until they feel like something is better than nothing.
I think it's evident with the election and I think Jon Stewart [recently] sarcastically poked fun at the Democrats lack of fire in their messages to the people and he uses Kerry's election platform as an example.
It seems like the best man is the one who can massage the minds of the people with a heartwarming yet promising message, regardless of what actually will happen. Think about the recent tea-party uprising. It still makes me sad [and I think if you looked at any posts I've made in political threads here on TL, my opinion has remained consistent] when people think the tea party is supportive of some wild policy promises that would realistically never happen unless you removed all social programs to account for the budget losses. In this example I'm referring to less "taxes" primarily.
Really great article, even if unfortunately it isn't for the most part too shocking. The manipulation of both the media and the opinions of less informed voters has really skewed political discourse in this country to the point of absurdity. It feels like we're actually regressing and I don't know what the hell can be done about it. The Republicans really know what they're doing, which is pretty frightening if you think about it.
One part I found particularly alarming was how well this applies to modern American politics:
As Hannah Arendt observed, a disciplined minority of totalitarians can use the instruments of democratic government to undermine democracy itself.
Is the Democrats' problem really the messaging or is it their actual message? Let me present an alternative explanation: a majority of Americans simply aren't buying what the modern day Democratic party is selling.
If anything, Democrats generally have to hide what their real intentions are in order to get into office and pose as being more conservative/moderate than they really are. Take the Obamacare bill as an example. Did Democrats draft that bill in any manner that even remotely resembled an open process? Of course not. It was all done behind closed doors. I can still remember Nancy Pelosi's inane statement to the press of "we have to pass the bill to see what's in it." Really?! How about Pelosi forcing a vote on a 2500+ page bill (or however large it was) when Congressional members only had a couple of days (I think it was two days) to review it? The Democrats knew damned well that what they were drafting was not popular, and they did everything that they could to hide it until it was passed.
Republicans aren't "winning" right now because they are outsmarting Democrats with better "messaging." Americans had most of two years to see what unfettered Democratic rule looks like, and they didn't like it.
On September 09 2011 02:36 xDaunt wrote: If anything, Democrats generally have to hide what their real intentions are in order to get into office and pose as being more conservative/moderate than they really are. Take the Obamacare bill as an example. Did Democrats draft that bill in any manner that even remotely resembled an open process? Of course not. It was all done behind closed doors. I can still remember Nancy Pelosi's inane statement to the press of "we have to pass the bill to see what's in it." Really?! How about Pelosi forcing a vote on a 2500+ page bill (or however large it was) when Congressional members only had a couple of days (I think it was two days) to review it? The Democrats knew damned well that what they were drafting was not popular, and they did everything that they could to hide it until it was passed.
I've talked about it before in when the legislation first came up. The legislation is an unholy mix of cost shuffling, wealth transfers, individual mandates, and government regulation. It's arguably much worse than a health care system run entirely by the government because people who know the law well will be able to profiteer off of the exploits built into the complicated system. The hospitals and health insurance agencies seemed to have their fingerprints all over it.
As with most major pieces of legislation, if people knew what was actually in the giant bills, they probably wouldn't like it. It's a mixture of overly complicated or not desirable. The same is true of the PATRIOT act, another rushed piece of legislation.
The Democrats for all their campaign rhetoric didn't deliver. It's an about-face in anti-war, civil liberties, and anti-lobbyist. Only thing they can still cobble up the tax-the-rich rhetoric and by rich they mean everybody except themselves (lawmakers are very rich) and their friends.
On September 09 2011 02:36 xDaunt wrote: Is the Democrats' problem really the messaging or is it their actual message? Let me present an alternative explanation: a majority of Americans simply aren't buying what the modern day Democratic party is selling.
If anything, Democrats generally have to hide what their real intentions are in order to get into office and pose as being more conservative/moderate than they really are. Take the Obamacare bill as an example. Did Democrats draft that bill in any manner that even remotely resembled an open process? Of course not. It was all done behind closed doors. I can still remember Nancy Pelosi's inane statement to the press of "we have to pass the bill to see what's in it." Really?! How about Pelosi forcing a vote on a 2500+ page bill (or however large it was) when Congressional members only had a couple of days (I think it was two days) to review it? The Democrats knew damned well that what they were drafting was not popular, and they did everything that they could to hide it until it was passed.
Republicans aren't "winning" right now because they are outsmarting Democrats with better "messaging." Americans had most of two years to see what unfettered Democratic rule looks like, and they didn't like it.
You should know that the final healthcare bill was almost identical, in every way that matters, to Republican proposals from the 90's. It was a center-right bill, with big giveaways to business (insurance and pharma), patent extensions, and minimal increases in government benefits (most of which came in the form of subsidizing private insurance for poor people instead of just supplying it directly). The main cost control measure, the insurance exchange, is a market-focused plan. It's conservative economics 101.
Lets not forget that the mandate, which is the most controversial part of the bill, was taken directly from the Republican position plan in the 90's. In many ways, it's weaker. Originally it was an employer mandate instead of an individual mandate.
The trouble is clearly messaging. The public consistently polls in favor of liberal positions on all kinds of issues. The public option, for example, was a popular idea. It got cut from the healthcare bill in favor of more conservative plans.
In the end, Democrats usually end up passing more conservative bills than the public wants. They're absolutely terrible at messaging. You don't have to look any farther than the debt ceiling debate. They let the Republicans turn a routine procedural measure into a debate on short term debt (which most economists agree is a total non-issue).
It's crazy that you think democrats pretend to be conservative to get elected and then pass a wildly liberal agenda. As a member of the liberal "base," I assure you, we get pandered to during election season, and left out in the cold when it comes to enacting policy.
P.S. I also spotted the words nexus, dragoons, and arbiter.
I found that article rather hard to read. I'm a math/science guy, and I'm all for the clarity of ideas being expressed. I find that when the writer tries to plug in big words left and right, it can fuzzy the meaning to a large portion of readers.
That being said, the most disgusting part of this entire article for me was the following statement:
"But already in 2009, Mitch McConnell, the Senate Republican leader, declared that his greatest legislative priority was - jobs for Americans? Rescuing the financial system? Solving the housing collapse? - no, none of those things. His top priority was to ensure that Obama should be a one-term president."
It seems apparent that the US government's 2 party system has become so polarized; and its members so partisan, that the government is slowly losing its ability to function and serve its purpose.
EPT
