|
On April 30 2012 12:44 hkf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 12:26 Judicator wrote:On April 30 2012 12:05 hkf wrote:How was Invasion block terrible? Wat? When a chase rare is purely to counter a land printed in the block before, there is something wrong with the sets power. Anyways it's obvious you've had no competitive experience for too long so its irrevalant having this discussion about power creep ? I played during those blocks, Invasion was perceived to be fairly balanced...Mirrodin block kicked down the door with Ravager in Darksteel. Then you still had options later on. Basically when only Darksteel was out, that was majorly problematic. Power creep is obvious, they had to buff certain aspects to make the game more dynamic. I mean the game was getting to the point where it was fixated at 2 mana in Blue and 3 mana in Red. I'm not saying planeswalkers is the root cause of this but they are a massive contributor (looks at jace)
Sure, but if you never try new things, the game gets old. I mean would you rather we still be playing with sorcery-only? Obviously Jace was a mistake which again I attribute with them not really understanding how powerful planeswalkers can be at that point.
I think I needed to clarify that my original point was that there's nothing wrong with increasing power levels provided it doesn't result in an arms race between archetypes, and that the mechanics remain interactive. All things considered, the game is fun with the release of AVR when it really wasn't with just DKA. Hexproof will probably not see the light of day again after this set outside of certain niche cards.
|
On April 30 2012 13:06 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 12:44 hkf wrote:On April 30 2012 12:26 Judicator wrote:On April 30 2012 12:05 hkf wrote:How was Invasion block terrible? Wat? When a chase rare is purely to counter a land printed in the block before, there is something wrong with the sets power. Anyways it's obvious you've had no competitive experience for too long so its irrevalant having this discussion about power creep ? I played during those blocks, Invasion was perceived to be fairly balanced...Mirrodin block kicked down the door with Ravager in Darksteel. Then you still had options later on. Basically when only Darksteel was out, that was majorly problematic. Power creep is obvious, they had to buff certain aspects to make the game more dynamic. I mean the game was getting to the point where it was fixated at 2 mana in Blue and 3 mana in Red. I'm not saying planeswalkers is the root cause of this but they are a massive contributor (looks at jace) Sure, but if you never try new things, the game gets old. I mean would you rather we still be playing with sorcery-only? Obviously Jace was a mistake which again I attribute with them not really understanding how powerful planeswalkers can be at that point. I think I needed to clarify that my original point was that there's nothing wrong with increasing power levels provided it doesn't result in an arms race between archetypes, and that the mechanics remain interactive. All things considered, the game is fun with the release of AVR when it really wasn't with just DKA. Hexproof will probably not see the light of day again after this set outside of certain niche cards.
Interrupt was removed.
As was stacking of combat damage.
Argubably they are 'trying new things' by removing stuff but seriously meh, whatever, change is change. Planeswalkers started a line of 'deal with this, but only with creatures (or in cases direct damage)', and creatures had to get better to fight planeswalkers, and by correlation spells had to get better to deal with creatures, escalating a slow but sure cacscade.
Also I agree with hexproof it's the dumbest mechanic ever.
|
Been thinking about getting back into mtg, quit because I moved to a place with no MTG scene at all, but now I have moved again to a place with a good scene. Its quit around... uh... they just banned out affinity(artifact lands, ravager, ect.) from standard if I remember correctly.
My god the game has changed, I am looking through all the standard playable cards and I just don't know what to do. I have always been a control player, but making a viable control deck with my meager $150 budget seems impossible. All of the good control cards are so expensive, and I don't even know how I feel about planeswalkers. I was thinking of running a U/B control deck with a concentration on sacrifice as the main removal spell and combining it with wurmcoil engine, but now this fucking angel comes out that makes it so you don't have to sacrifice creaters, along with this land that makes it so you can't counter creatures. I am completely lost on what to do. Are there any viable control decks, not winning a tourny or anything but doing decent, that doesn't involve planeswalkers and aren't insanely expensive?
EDIT: Oh wow they removed combat damage going on the stack? Thats a crazy huge change. Have to change my test deck because it was designed to abuse it.
|
On April 30 2012 13:26 Reuental wrote:
Been thinking about getting back into mtg, quit because I moved to a place with no MTG scene at all, but now I have moved again to a place with a good scene. Its quit around... uh... they just banned out affinity(artifact lands, ravager, ect.) from standard if I remember correctly.
My god the game has changed, I am looking through all the standard playable cards and I just don't know what to do. I have always been a control player, but making a viable control deck with my meager $150 budget seems impossible. All of the good control cards are so expensive, and I don't even know how I feel about planeswalkers. I was thinking of running a U/B control deck with a concentration on sacrifice as the main removal spell and combining it with wurmcoil engine, but now this fucking angel comes out that makes it so you don't have to sacrifice creaters, along with this land that makes it so you can't counter creatures. I am completely lost on what to do. Are there any viable control decks, not winning a tourny or anything but doing decent, that doesn't involve planeswalkers and aren't insanely expensive?
EDIT: Oh wow they removed combat damage going on the stack? Thats a crazy huge change. Have to change my test deck because it was designed to abuse it.
Delver, aggro-control with a (practically) 3/2 flying for U. Although I'm not sure of its viability as a tier 1 with Avacyn Restored.
|
On April 30 2012 13:22 hkf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 13:06 Judicator wrote:On April 30 2012 12:44 hkf wrote:On April 30 2012 12:26 Judicator wrote:On April 30 2012 12:05 hkf wrote:How was Invasion block terrible? Wat? When a chase rare is purely to counter a land printed in the block before, there is something wrong with the sets power. Anyways it's obvious you've had no competitive experience for too long so its irrevalant having this discussion about power creep ? I played during those blocks, Invasion was perceived to be fairly balanced...Mirrodin block kicked down the door with Ravager in Darksteel. Then you still had options later on. Basically when only Darksteel was out, that was majorly problematic. Power creep is obvious, they had to buff certain aspects to make the game more dynamic. I mean the game was getting to the point where it was fixated at 2 mana in Blue and 3 mana in Red. I'm not saying planeswalkers is the root cause of this but they are a massive contributor (looks at jace) Sure, but if you never try new things, the game gets old. I mean would you rather we still be playing with sorcery-only? Obviously Jace was a mistake which again I attribute with them not really understanding how powerful planeswalkers can be at that point. I think I needed to clarify that my original point was that there's nothing wrong with increasing power levels provided it doesn't result in an arms race between archetypes, and that the mechanics remain interactive. All things considered, the game is fun with the release of AVR when it really wasn't with just DKA. Hexproof will probably not see the light of day again after this set outside of certain niche cards. Interrupt was removed. As was stacking of combat damage. Argubably they are 'trying new things' by removing stuff but seriously meh, whatever, change is change. Planeswalkers started a line of 'deal with this, but only with creatures (or in cases direct damage)', and creatures had to get better to fight planeswalkers, and by correlation spells had to get better to deal with creatures, escalating a slow but sure cacscade. Also I agree with hexproof it's the dumbest mechanic ever.
Damage on the stack is one of the horrible things of Magic. It made creatures with activated abilities insane. Designing for Limited with damage on the stack would be pretty bland.
Creatures needed to get better. Serra decks shouldn't be the catch all.
As for the poster asking for control decks, your options at this point in time in the very early stages of AVR standard is Esper planeswalker which is not a cheap deck. The hard to get UB and UW lands run about 15-20 dollars and you'll need 3-6 depending on the build.
Looking at my build right now...the planewalkers themselves will run close to 150 to 200 and thats once Tamiyo drops from the hype. The Snapcasters are 20-25 each (will only go up now). One-ofs like Batterskull is like 15 too. It's expensive if you are trying to get in now and little point to do so (financially speaking). If you want to get back in for the long haul, Scars rotates this summer, so I would suggest stocking up on cheap Innistrad dual color lands and Snapcasters/Lilianas if you plan on playing control.
None of the decks are cheap right now cause of how (relatively) late it is in the standard meta game. There might be a new deck which shakes up the meta in AVR and I would safely say in M13, but your archtypes are pretty well defined. Esper walkers in Control, Delver/Spirits in tempo/midrange, Heartless summoning/Pod/Reanimator(Frites) for cheating mana, Humans/RG for aggro, Kessig Wolf-run for ramp. That being said, card prices are kind of stable cause needs are stable. It's also going to look that way for a while since the next PT is Block constructed. Maybe SCGs will introduce some neat UR or RUG deck, but right now I haven't seen one online where I feel it was good enough to field at an actual tournament.
Edit: Agree with hkf on Delver/Spirits, it's looking to be played less and less due to the other decks getting "more" better than it.
Edit 2: Unless you want to keep up consistently, you can't play control in this format. Your deck and sideboard numbers needs to be constantly updated to play control at a reasonable level. For example, I played UB control for a LONG time, and you can almost follow my progression in this thread as I played it and hyped it. I took a week off from heavy testing and the deck and sideboarding patterns shifted dramatically where I promptly stopped playing it. Then I started testing Esper on the side while keeping up with UB testing before switching into Esper full time. All because of the Delver decks switched to Matt Costa's version instead of Finkel's version and what was once a very comfortable match-up is now a major pain in the ass and required completely different sideboarding plans.
|
I wish damage was still on the stack. Then Lantern Spirit would be good =((((((((
|
On April 30 2012 13:56 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 13:22 hkf wrote:On April 30 2012 13:06 Judicator wrote:On April 30 2012 12:44 hkf wrote:On April 30 2012 12:26 Judicator wrote:On April 30 2012 12:05 hkf wrote:How was Invasion block terrible? Wat? When a chase rare is purely to counter a land printed in the block before, there is something wrong with the sets power. Anyways it's obvious you've had no competitive experience for too long so its irrevalant having this discussion about power creep ? I played during those blocks, Invasion was perceived to be fairly balanced...Mirrodin block kicked down the door with Ravager in Darksteel. Then you still had options later on. Basically when only Darksteel was out, that was majorly problematic. Power creep is obvious, they had to buff certain aspects to make the game more dynamic. I mean the game was getting to the point where it was fixated at 2 mana in Blue and 3 mana in Red. I'm not saying planeswalkers is the root cause of this but they are a massive contributor (looks at jace) Sure, but if you never try new things, the game gets old. I mean would you rather we still be playing with sorcery-only? Obviously Jace was a mistake which again I attribute with them not really understanding how powerful planeswalkers can be at that point. I think I needed to clarify that my original point was that there's nothing wrong with increasing power levels provided it doesn't result in an arms race between archetypes, and that the mechanics remain interactive. All things considered, the game is fun with the release of AVR when it really wasn't with just DKA. Hexproof will probably not see the light of day again after this set outside of certain niche cards. Interrupt was removed. As was stacking of combat damage. Argubably they are 'trying new things' by removing stuff but seriously meh, whatever, change is change. Planeswalkers started a line of 'deal with this, but only with creatures (or in cases direct damage)', and creatures had to get better to fight planeswalkers, and by correlation spells had to get better to deal with creatures, escalating a slow but sure cacscade. Also I agree with hexproof it's the dumbest mechanic ever. Damage on the stack is one of the horrible things of Magic. It made creatures with activated abilities insane. Designing for Limited with damage on the stack would be pretty bland.
I disagree, and it wasn't a case of "the only correct action was to stack damage first", as stipulated by wizards as the excuse for removing the mechanic. It introduced a big bluff component to combat (does he have a pump? Will he pump pre to maximise trample? Will he pump after stacking damage to be safe? etc), and limited design has been done for years prior to removal of combat damage stacking, and the most fun limited I played included it.
Interrupts though made no sense and was kinda just meh in general.
|
On April 30 2012 14:03 hkf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 13:56 Judicator wrote:On April 30 2012 13:22 hkf wrote:On April 30 2012 13:06 Judicator wrote:On April 30 2012 12:44 hkf wrote:On April 30 2012 12:26 Judicator wrote:On April 30 2012 12:05 hkf wrote:How was Invasion block terrible? Wat? When a chase rare is purely to counter a land printed in the block before, there is something wrong with the sets power. Anyways it's obvious you've had no competitive experience for too long so its irrevalant having this discussion about power creep ? I played during those blocks, Invasion was perceived to be fairly balanced...Mirrodin block kicked down the door with Ravager in Darksteel. Then you still had options later on. Basically when only Darksteel was out, that was majorly problematic. Power creep is obvious, they had to buff certain aspects to make the game more dynamic. I mean the game was getting to the point where it was fixated at 2 mana in Blue and 3 mana in Red. I'm not saying planeswalkers is the root cause of this but they are a massive contributor (looks at jace) Sure, but if you never try new things, the game gets old. I mean would you rather we still be playing with sorcery-only? Obviously Jace was a mistake which again I attribute with them not really understanding how powerful planeswalkers can be at that point. I think I needed to clarify that my original point was that there's nothing wrong with increasing power levels provided it doesn't result in an arms race between archetypes, and that the mechanics remain interactive. All things considered, the game is fun with the release of AVR when it really wasn't with just DKA. Hexproof will probably not see the light of day again after this set outside of certain niche cards. Interrupt was removed. As was stacking of combat damage. Argubably they are 'trying new things' by removing stuff but seriously meh, whatever, change is change. Planeswalkers started a line of 'deal with this, but only with creatures (or in cases direct damage)', and creatures had to get better to fight planeswalkers, and by correlation spells had to get better to deal with creatures, escalating a slow but sure cacscade. Also I agree with hexproof it's the dumbest mechanic ever. Damage on the stack is one of the horrible things of Magic. It made creatures with activated abilities insane. Designing for Limited with damage on the stack would be pretty bland. I disagree, and it wasn't a case of "the only correct action was to stack damage first", as stipulated by wizards as the excuse for removing the mechanic. It introduced a big bluff component to combat (does he have a pump? Will he pump pre to maximise trample? Will he pump after stacking damage to be safe? etc), and limited design has been done for years prior to removal of combat damage stacking, and the most fun limited I played included it. Interrupts though made no sense and was kinda just meh in general.
It was fun except you realize that creature toughness was effectively dictated by the creatures with activated abilities. The big bluff component is there still albeit simpler, but the situations you described wasn't as prominent. Like I remember playing Tribe Elder and the notion that I can trade away a 1/1 for a X/1 and still get a card out of it is kind of silly. That bothers me that there is that much value.
It's definitely easier, but I think it's better for it.
Also let's be honest though, limited in combat damage stacking had TPF and RGD and those are two are like the best sets.
|
On April 30 2012 14:13 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 14:03 hkf wrote:On April 30 2012 13:56 Judicator wrote:On April 30 2012 13:22 hkf wrote:On April 30 2012 13:06 Judicator wrote:On April 30 2012 12:44 hkf wrote:On April 30 2012 12:26 Judicator wrote:On April 30 2012 12:05 hkf wrote:How was Invasion block terrible? Wat? When a chase rare is purely to counter a land printed in the block before, there is something wrong with the sets power. Anyways it's obvious you've had no competitive experience for too long so its irrevalant having this discussion about power creep ? I played during those blocks, Invasion was perceived to be fairly balanced...Mirrodin block kicked down the door with Ravager in Darksteel. Then you still had options later on. Basically when only Darksteel was out, that was majorly problematic. Power creep is obvious, they had to buff certain aspects to make the game more dynamic. I mean the game was getting to the point where it was fixated at 2 mana in Blue and 3 mana in Red. I'm not saying planeswalkers is the root cause of this but they are a massive contributor (looks at jace) Sure, but if you never try new things, the game gets old. I mean would you rather we still be playing with sorcery-only? Obviously Jace was a mistake which again I attribute with them not really understanding how powerful planeswalkers can be at that point. I think I needed to clarify that my original point was that there's nothing wrong with increasing power levels provided it doesn't result in an arms race between archetypes, and that the mechanics remain interactive. All things considered, the game is fun with the release of AVR when it really wasn't with just DKA. Hexproof will probably not see the light of day again after this set outside of certain niche cards. Interrupt was removed. As was stacking of combat damage. Argubably they are 'trying new things' by removing stuff but seriously meh, whatever, change is change. Planeswalkers started a line of 'deal with this, but only with creatures (or in cases direct damage)', and creatures had to get better to fight planeswalkers, and by correlation spells had to get better to deal with creatures, escalating a slow but sure cacscade. Also I agree with hexproof it's the dumbest mechanic ever. Damage on the stack is one of the horrible things of Magic. It made creatures with activated abilities insane. Designing for Limited with damage on the stack would be pretty bland. I disagree, and it wasn't a case of "the only correct action was to stack damage first", as stipulated by wizards as the excuse for removing the mechanic. It introduced a big bluff component to combat (does he have a pump? Will he pump pre to maximise trample? Will he pump after stacking damage to be safe? etc), and limited design has been done for years prior to removal of combat damage stacking, and the most fun limited I played included it. Interrupts though made no sense and was kinda just meh in general. It was fun except you realize that creature toughness was effectively dictated by the creatures with activated abilities. The big bluff component is there still albeit simpler, but the situations you described wasn't as prominent. Like I remember playing Tribe Elder and the notion that I can trade away a 1/1 for a X/1 and still get a card out of it is kind of silly. That bothers me that there is that much value. It's definitely easier, but I think it's better for it. Also let's be honest though, limited in combat damage stacking had TPF and RGD and those are two are like the best sets.
At best Sakura was a fog for a turn, but the value intrinsically is not as bad as you imagine (if you have to trade eventually and you keep Sakura back until you do, the land value is miniscle but still nonzero, and yes I know there are other cards but this was an example. You can't control how much value you will get out of a card that is influenced by the current game state). Valuetowning creatures turned into a binary choice (ie, Dawnthreader Elk etc) is just lazy design, imo.
RGD was the BEST BEST set ever. God. Return to Ravnica will be just as awesome, hopefully.
|
I was crazy about them taking damage on stack away as well, but after playing with the new sets, I don't really notice it. I think ordering blockers and such is weird now but since magic online does everything for me I dont mind.
|
Latest offer is 11200$ on my collection estimated at over 16k MOTL value (or over 20k SCG). This is about 70% of what I was hoping of getting by selling everything on my own (MOTL price).
Waiting for more offers, but this one is quite interesting! 
Robert
|
Did you decide to take that offer? If there's no hiccups, that looks like a solid deal.
|
On May 03 2012 14:22 XenOmega wrote:Latest offer is 11200$ on my collection estimated at over 16k MOTL value (or over 20k SCG). This is about 70% of what I was hoping of getting by selling everything on my own (MOTL price). Waiting for more offers, but this one is quite interesting! Robert
Why don't you just part out the cards on your own? Is your time worth $6,000-$8,000? Unless you are in a rush to sell the collection and you NEED the money, I feel like it would be better to slowly part it out, and imho, once you get to say sell on eBay for a few, once you get it down, simply rinse and repeat and you can slowly sell the collection and keep all the money to yourself.
|
On May 05 2012 17:23 echO [W] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:22 XenOmega wrote:Latest offer is 11200$ on my collection estimated at over 16k MOTL value (or over 20k SCG). This is about 70% of what I was hoping of getting by selling everything on my own (MOTL price). Waiting for more offers, but this one is quite interesting! Robert Why don't you just part out the cards on your own? Is your time worth $6,000-$8,000? Unless you are in a rush to sell the collection and you NEED the money, I feel like it would be better to slowly part it out, and imho, once you get to say sell on eBay for a few, once you get it down, simply rinse and repeat and you can slowly sell the collection and keep all the money to yourself.
Ebay does take a percentage of your earnings and I think Paypal does as well (it's been a while since I used Ebay to sell stuff). Then you swallow all loses if your auction doesn't sell or if it undersells especially if you are new user/account. I have gotten dual lands for like 20 each from people fitting XenOmega's profile since pricing can be pretty difficult. You can make the argument that his staples will sell close to market value but the other cards eh...much more difficult to.
|
On May 06 2012 02:54 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 17:23 echO [W] wrote:On May 03 2012 14:22 XenOmega wrote:Latest offer is 11200$ on my collection estimated at over 16k MOTL value (or over 20k SCG). This is about 70% of what I was hoping of getting by selling everything on my own (MOTL price). Waiting for more offers, but this one is quite interesting! Robert Why don't you just part out the cards on your own? Is your time worth $6,000-$8,000? Unless you are in a rush to sell the collection and you NEED the money, I feel like it would be better to slowly part it out, and imho, once you get to say sell on eBay for a few, once you get it down, simply rinse and repeat and you can slowly sell the collection and keep all the money to yourself. Ebay does take a percentage of your earnings and I think Paypal does as well (it's been a while since I used Ebay to sell stuff). Then you swallow all loses if your auction doesn't sell or if it undersells especially if you are new user/account. I have gotten dual lands for like 20 each from people fitting XenOmega's profile since pricing can be pretty difficult. You can make the argument that his staples will sell close to market value but the other cards eh...much more difficult to.
I agree, however, some people are offering him 60-70% of market value, If I still remember correctly, PayPal's fees are 2.9%+30 cents, and eBay is 9% (Combine for ~ 12%). Personally, I would sell all the staples myself (Duals, Forces, Goyfs, Fetches, and the like) Then I would consider whole sale on the lower value items.
Personally, I would gamble and sell it on my own. I feel like you would have to make a blunder of massive proportions to lose more than the 20-30% discount that you would otherwise give to a wholesale dealer.
|
He can't move the less valuable cards with the ease of the high demand cards. The fact that he can bundle is to his advantage, since he's probably accounting every piece at full value. I mean, yes, the beauty of selling them individually, is that you'll occasionally hit retail pricing - or beyond!
But he's is competing in a volatile space: the Internet. Look at that previous post where some stranger offers him a price but wants him to drive out of his city. Who assumes that liability? It's all on him. What if a truck hits him? What if he gets robbed? This is all silly to say, of course, but that's what risk is. What if, while discussing pricing, the buyer spills his Pepsi on Omega's 50 Underground Seas?
Not to mention the time. What if he has a job where he can get overtime or a lady-friend or a son...how would you value every 15 minutes of his life?
EDIT: Terrible terrible iPhone grammar.
|
divine reckoning + loner mechanic = viable BW deck synergy? What do you guys think?
|
On May 06 2012 10:10 slyboogie wrote:
He can't move the less valuable cards with the ease of the high demand cards. The fact that he can bundle is to his advantage, since he's probably accounting every piece at full value. I mean, yes, the beauty of selling them individually, is that you'll occasionally hit retail pricing - or beyond!
But he's is competing in a volatile space: the Internet. Look at that previous post where some stranger offers him a price but wants him to drive out of his city. Who assumes that liability? It's all on him. What if a truck hits him? What if he gets robbed? This is all silly to say, of course, but that's what risk is. What if, while discussing pricing, the buyer spills his Pepsi on Omega's 50 Underground Seas?
Not to mention the time. What if he has a job where he can get overtime or a lady-friend or a son...how would you value every 15 minutes of his life?
EDIT: Terrible terrible iPhone grammar.
People's time is valuable, and valuating people's time is a pointless discussion, but to me, and maybe not to him, $6000-$8000 is just way too much money for me to essentially pay for convenience.
$6000-$8000 is easily 1-2 month salary.
|
been playing lots of cube and using those packs to draft some tfp, and man this is awesome
good times, can't wait till avacyn now
|
On May 06 2012 15:11 echO [W] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 10:10 slyboogie wrote:
He can't move the less valuable cards with the ease of the high demand cards. The fact that he can bundle is to his advantage, since he's probably accounting every piece at full value. I mean, yes, the beauty of selling them individually, is that you'll occasionally hit retail pricing - or beyond!
But he's is competing in a volatile space: the Internet. Look at that previous post where some stranger offers him a price but wants him to drive out of his city. Who assumes that liability? It's all on him. What if a truck hits him? What if he gets robbed? This is all silly to say, of course, but that's what risk is. What if, while discussing pricing, the buyer spills his Pepsi on Omega's 50 Underground Seas?
Not to mention the time. What if he has a job where he can get overtime or a lady-friend or a son...how would you value every 15 minutes of his life?
EDIT: Terrible terrible iPhone grammar. People's time is valuable, and valuating people's time is a pointless discussion, but to me, and maybe not to him, $6000-$8000 is just way too much money for me to essentially pay for convenience. $6000-$8000 is easily 1-2 month salary.
Ain't convenience and moving the rest of his non-staple cards is a lot harder than you are thinking. slyboogie has it right, trying to individually sell them would easily take longer 3 months and would be closer to a year to actually move everything if you are lucky. For every legacy dual, you have probably more than 100 useless jank that nobody would touch.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
