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On March 07 2014 01:19 Sn0_Man wrote:
Lots of heroes get blink + force but tinker certainly isn't one of them.
As with any other hero, don't blink into certain death is basically the advice. Consider going for the Dagon + Ethereal blade build as that allows you to buy a ghost sceptre early (which u can rearm for basically permanent physical immunity) as well as have a nice high level dagon for longer-range nukeing.
I'm fairly certain you can also rearm blink even while taking damage and if you time it right (does shift queuing work with an on-cd dagger?) just blink out.
Lol okay that's pretty much what I thought. :D
Thanks.
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
Can't shift queue on-cd Blink btw.
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You really think so fb? ur blinks on like a 2.5s cooldown, adding a force just seems questionable but w/e.
E: oops this post missed some o well
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On March 07 2014 01:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
You really think so fb? ur blinks on like a 2.5s cooldown, adding a force just seems questionable but w/e.
E: oops this post missed some o well
With rearm you're basically the most mobile mofo in the game with those two. I dont usually do it myself, but I can see certain games where its viable. Its not a very good core build tho.
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personally i don't like force on tinker, it does very little for you, dagger and bots is enough to get into the fight. March has insane range, rockets has insane range, dagon has good range there is no reason to be close enough in a fight so you would need the forcestaff. You don't fight with tinker unless you are ready, if you think you don't have a big enough gold advantage you delay the game and farm untill you do. Tinker has one of the best lategames in the whole game so there is really no reason to rush into fights unless you want to defend towers. If you gank someone and can't blow him up instantly you stop chasing unless you know that nobody gonna punish you for it because you can see them on the map or you know where they are.
If the enemy team has strong gankers you don't stay around after a tp you shift queue teleport in trees, march spam and tp out instantly after that.
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On March 07 2014 01:29 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 01:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
You really think so fb? ur blinks on like a 2.5s cooldown, adding a force just seems questionable but w/e.
E: oops this post missed some o well With rearm you're basically the most mobile mofo in the game with those two. I dont usually do it myself, but I can see certain games where its viable. Its not a very good core build tho.
Like I said I haven't watched a lot of Pro Dota but what's been working for me is Boots + Blink and March where I TP and queue blink into the trees and spam March into the lanes to farm later items and help push lanes. Then I go back on defense to spam march and rockets to defend towers.
Without Blink dagger I feel so vulnerable, especially in pubs where nobody can be relied on to protect you.
On pubs you usually have an enemy team of 5 carries and your team is a bunch of scrubs (lol) so I often go for Scythe of Vyse to disable one of them and give us a fighting chance in team fights.
I dont really need tournament quality builds but I'm just wondering if what I'm doing is ok for pubs or if there is a vastly superior build given that nobody will lane with me reliably and it's pubs where I always have to worry about at least 1 Rikki or Blood Seeker per game....
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Riki and Bloodseeker both can't interact with ghost sceptre + TP out unless they get a diffusal 
I mean, if you want to go blink + force go ham man.
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that's why blink dagger is core no one is disputing that
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
Theorycraft question: is it worth going mass stats on void (manta, skadi, whatever)? For some reason it looks like mass mass mass stats actually give you more dps than mom+raw damage/bfly builds. Mainy due to manta on melees being actually good if you get a TON of agility (bfly+skadi/diffusal+eblade+manta itself levels).
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On March 07 2014 01:52 KOFgokuon wrote:
that's why blink dagger is core no one is disputing that
Well excludos was saying its not a very good core build.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 07 2014 02:13 Sn0_Man wrote:
No.
Bkb is implied in both builds and so is lack of rapier, and math wise, raw damage builds are actually outclassed due to manta's existence. In fact, small comparison that should not be ever drawn to be legit:
lvl25 Void with manta, bfly and eblade (yes, eblade and for a reasons you will find rather fun, but eblade is legit) has 199 agility. That results (assuming void and manta illusions are attacking the target) in 835 physical dps (bash not calculated due to being random) just from these items alone. Crit makes this over 1,1k. Now, name me a raw damage items (bfly included) that give him more dps without crit (especially considering that it affects manta + stats void more than raw damage/as one).
If i take bfly-ac-mkb (no crit, remember?): 133 agility resulting into 570 dps without taking into account -5 armor. Tbh, massing stats even concept wise looks like best way to actually make a void not-damageless, just because agility gives him both AS and damage, while str actually makes use of backtrack.
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On March 07 2014 02:22 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 01:52 KOFgokuon wrote:
that's why blink dagger is core no one is disputing that Well excludos was saying its not a very good core build.
No he wasn't, he was saying blink PLUS FORCE isn't really a common core.
Blink always is.
On March 07 2014 02:25 lolfail9001 wrote:Bkb is implied in both builds and so is lack of rapier, and math wise, raw damage builds are actually outclassed due to manta's existence. In fact, small comparison that should not be ever drawn to be legit: lvl25 Void with manta, bfly and eblade (yes, eblade and for a reasons you will find rather fun, but eblade is legit) has 199 agility. That results (assuming void and manta illusions are attacking the target) in 835 physical dps (bash not calculated due to being random) just from these items alone. Crit makes this over 1,1k. Now, name me a raw damage items (bfly included) that give him more dps without crit (especially considering that it affects manta + stats void more than raw damage/as one). If i take bfly-ac-mkb (no crit, remember?): 133 agility resulting into 570 dps without taking into account -5 armor. Tbh, massing stats even concept wise looks like best way to actually make a void not-damageless, just because agility gives him both AS and damage, while str actually makes use of backtrack.
Why's bkb implied when ur recommending mass-stats? shouldn't have to be.
Regardless, you just go butterfly + crit void and the games already over one way or another since ur dmg like that crushes awful theorycraft with bad items like manta (which you'd only get if they had orchids or similar basically).
Ur also forgetting that sometimes u need shit like MKB which doesn't work very well with illusions etc.
MoM isn't part of 6slot discussions. Bash is central to void u cant dismiss that in dmg calculations. Illusions don't get backtrack so they just die anyway.
All that to say, "No".
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THANKS!
Another question => What items can I get as Tinker if they're playing a lot of illusion heavy characters? My build has a lot of direct targeted spells but aside from just spamming march and hoping they retreat I've got nothing..
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 07 2014 02:33 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 02:25 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 07 2014 02:13 Sn0_Man wrote:
No. Bkb is implied in both builds and so is lack of rapier, and math wise, raw damage builds are actually outclassed due to manta's existence. In fact, small comparison that should not be ever drawn to be legit: lvl25 Void with manta, bfly and eblade (yes, eblade and for a reasons you will find rather fun, but eblade is legit) has 199 agility. That results (assuming void and manta illusions are attacking the target) in 835 physical dps (bash not calculated due to being random) just from these items alone. Crit makes this over 1,1k. Now, name me a raw damage items (bfly included) that give him more dps without crit (especially considering that it affects manta + stats void more than raw damage/as one). If i take bfly-ac-mkb (no crit, remember?): 133 agility resulting into 570 dps without taking into account -5 armor. Tbh, massing stats even concept wise looks like best way to actually make a void not-damageless, just because agility gives him both AS and damage, while str actually makes use of backtrack. Why's bkb implied when ur recommending mass-stats? shouldn't have to be. Regardless, you just go butterfly + crit void and the games already over one way or another since ur dmg like that crushes awful theorycraft with bad items like manta (which you'd only get if they had orchids or similar basically). Ur also forgetting that sometimes u need shit like MKB which doesn't work very well with illusions etc. MoM isn't part of 6slot discussions. Bash is central to void u cant dismiss that in dmg calculations. Illusions don't get backtrack so they just die anyway. All that to say, "No".
Bkb is implied because if there is 1 thing you can't really avoid getting on void, it's bkb.
Bfly+crit void crushes true, but the talk is about other items.
Shit like mkb is shit, hell, crit is actually better even against bfly'd target, just by virtue of crits not missing.
Mom is midgame item, it's 100 IAS should be good in lategame but funnily enough it is only true if you actually go raw damage and assuming no rapier, it is at most 200 dps bonus (if you have 340 avg dmg per hit). And yes, i consider chrono the key thing and question is: how can i kill someone in chrono the fastest. Manta actually seems to be a good choice for this, and no, they only die to nuke that does 1/3rd of void's HP (without bkb, lvl25 void with manta and eblade only as hp items has 2k HP, there are no AoE nukes to kill void's illusions).
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On March 07 2014 02:22 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 01:52 KOFgokuon wrote:
that's why blink dagger is core no one is disputing that Well excludos was saying its not a very good core build.
The discussion was on blink and forcestaff. Blink is core. You practically can't play without it.
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On March 07 2014 02:48 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 02:22 DinoMight wrote:On March 07 2014 01:52 KOFgokuon wrote:
that's why blink dagger is core no one is disputing that Well excludos was saying its not a very good core build. The discussion was on blink and forcestaff. Blink is core. You practically can't play without it.
Okay thanks. That's what I thought.
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@lolifail
Suffice to say that not only are you wrong in almost every aspect, you are also well beyond the "simple questions" stage of this thread. I gave you your simple answer.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 06 2014 23:03 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 16:13 TheYango wrote:
Generally you dodge the trilane and hope to make back the deficit midgame. Axe creep-skipping trilanes have been picked to control the early game before, but if Axe loses his tempo the game rapidly degrades for him. You can't stop the trilane so losing any kills to it is just bad play.
If you can dodge the trilane and have a strong pushing support, Axe/Dazzle/DS don't take towers quickly so you can race them for a tower trade or force them to swap back lanes, which buys you a lot of time. In pubs I would say the strategy is 100% fool proof. When I try to argue that we should just abandon a lane because else people will be feeding, generally I'm met with rage vitriol. Then people just feed and then these people are met with rage and vitriol... And they don't understand that some lanes you simply CAN'T win. And feeding kills is just worse.
If you're playing stack vs solo pubs there's lots of shit that's 100% fool proof.
On March 06 2014 18:54 Kreb wrote:
That doesnt seem reasonable to me. Dodging trilanes means you generally put one guy on "soak whatever you can"-duty in that lane. Kinda like a normal offlane. Then you play 4v2 on the rest of the map and hope to make up for it elsewhere. But if they're creepskipping you cant stay at your tower (they'll dive and kill you) so theres absolutely nothing to gain being there. So if you dodge completely then you're splitting the farm worth of two lanes and maybe a few jungle camp between 5 players. Not to mention with that it will take them at most 2 creep waves for them to take down your T1 if you dodge completely. Thats 1min. Afterwards they will either do the same to your T2, rotate with their Tower/Farm advantage or just farm up your entire jungle, all of which are bad for you.
There is literally no way an Axe/Dazzle/DS lane takes the T1 before the first siege wave if your off-laner has any skill for pulling creeps off towers (which is what the off-laner does there--off-laners like Furion can slow the push like this while still being able to jungle as well). You pick a trilane that can push faster than them (Lesh + anything, Luna + anything) and push their safe lane. That forces them to either rotate back wasting either TP gold or a lot of time walking back up or lose their towers faster. And if they rotate back up, they can't creepskip their safe lane because the distance between off-lane towers is shorter than between safe lane towers.
At that point they're playing a double melee trilane without the ability to creepskip against a trilane that's probably 2-3 ranged with a significant gold/level disadvantage and they're fucked. It's just better than going to lane vs. them level 1 because you take the initiative and force them to respond to you if you trilane their safe lane and push their shit in.
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EPT
