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On September 11 2018 00:44 uthgard wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2018 00:13 Artisreal wrote:On September 10 2018 23:47 uthgard wrote:
not like Serena had a chance to win that match anyway, outclassed and outplayed
unsurprisingly (most of) the media jumped on the "sexist/racist umpire" narrative lmao Winning is clearly besides the point there. During the match for Williams of course, but it's not like she needs to prove anyone how capable and talented she is. Her losing is no reason whatsoever to easily brush away her claims about being treated different from a male colleague without prior engagent with the substance of her identifying supposedly sexist treatment. Your comment is entirely missing the point. true my first line isn't relevant in that context but anyway my point is imo there really wasn't any real sexism (or racism) happening in that match, it was just an umpire doing his job. the stuff he did were all according to the rules. It was really just frustration and Serena being a very sore loser. though mainly I just felt real bad for Naomi with all the shit going on, honestly disgraceful.
I entirely agree with you that this distracts from the winner of the whole tournament which is unfortunate.
From what I've read I would disagree with your sentiment that he was just enforcing the rules. This is not the point that is being discussed.
He was enforcing something that male players supposedly do not get sanctioned for. And did so not just against Williams.
If even the wta backs Williams claim, idk what is there to discuss about the refs position?
You may call his actions fondly in line with the rules, but are these really rules if they're acted upon depending on who's on court?
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At the 2017 French Open, during a fourth-round match between Nadal and Roberto Batista Agut, Ramos penalized Nadal for two time violations for slow play, the second of which cost Nadal a point.
“There are umpires who sometimes put more pressure than others, and you have to accept this,” Nadal said after that match, which he won.
Nadal added: “I’m telling you this with some type of sadness, because I don’t want to have any problems. But this umpire is, I think, trying in a certain way to look for my faults, my errors. This is the impression I have.”
In the same interview, Nadal said of Ramos, “I respect him a lot.”
Active chair umpires are generally not permitted to give interviews because of tour policies. Ramos has not spoken publicly about Saturday’s match, in which Williams called him “a thief” for assessing the violations and also accused him of sexism, saying he had dealt with her more harshly than he would have a male player in the same circumstances.
“I’ve seen other men call other umpires several things,” she said after the match. “I’m here fighting for women’s rights and for women’s equality and for all kinds of stuff. For me to say ‘thief’ and for him to take a game, it made me feel like it was a sexist remark. He’s never taken a game from a man because they said ‘thief.’”
But he has not been hesitant to penalize men. Ramos gave Murray a code violation during the 2016 Olympics after Murray accused him of “stupid umpiring.”
“No sexist issue there,” said Chris Evert, the former world No. 1, on Sunday. “His history with men players shows that.”
Although Ramos has officiated more men’s matches during his career, he also has now officiated at three of the four women’s Grand Slam singles finals: the French Open in 2005, Wimbledon in 2008 and now this year’s United States Open, where he also officiated in women’s semifinal matches in 2014 and 2016. (Williams played in four of those matches.)
On Saturday, Mouratoglou admitted that he had been giving signals to Williams, although she said she did not see them. Mouratoglou also said that the current rule banning coaching during Grand Slam tournaments (it is allowed in WTA Tour events) was a gateway to “hypocrisy” because coaching was so widespread despite the rule. In its statement Sunday, the WTA said coaching should be allowed across the sport.
But privately and publicly, tennis officials — past and present — defended Ramos on Sunday. Morrissey said Mouratoglou’s coaching was so blatant it deserved to be sanctioned immediately.
Morrissey said he did not think that clear coaching could be handled with a soft warning. “It’s so rare to be able to be sure of it that the soft approach needs to be reserved for the majority of cases when it’s not clear,” he said.
Richard Ings, another former chair umpire from Australia, said Mouratoglou signaled twice “to ensure Serena saw it.”
“No way Carlos could have let that slide,” Ings said. “He had to stop it, and stop it he did. I thought Carlos was brilliant, courageous and calm.”
As for the verbal abuse, Morrissey said Ramos was restrained, not rash.
www.nytimes.com
Guy has history of enforcing rules and enforces them. Maybe he has questionable calls against women that p6 is referring to but I don't follow it closely enough to comment.
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the real shame is that after behaviour this deplorable, serena was fined less than 1% of her winnings at this tournament.
this isn't sexism, this is the kind of bullshit false victimization that gives feminism a bad rap
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How about not cheating and not verbally abuse and threaten officials. 
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On September 11 2018 02:02 CorsairHero wrote:Show nested quote +At the 2017 French Open, during a fourth-round match between Nadal and Roberto Batista Agut, Ramos penalized Nadal for two time violations for slow play, the second of which cost Nadal a point.
“There are umpires who sometimes put more pressure than others, and you have to accept this,” Nadal said after that match, which he won.
Nadal added: “I’m telling you this with some type of sadness, because I don’t want to have any problems. But this umpire is, I think, trying in a certain way to look for my faults, my errors. This is the impression I have.”
In the same interview, Nadal said of Ramos, “I respect him a lot.”
Active chair umpires are generally not permitted to give interviews because of tour policies. Ramos has not spoken publicly about Saturday’s match, in which Williams called him “a thief” for assessing the violations and also accused him of sexism, saying he had dealt with her more harshly than he would have a male player in the same circumstances.
“I’ve seen other men call other umpires several things,” she said after the match. “I’m here fighting for women’s rights and for women’s equality and for all kinds of stuff. For me to say ‘thief’ and for him to take a game, it made me feel like it was a sexist remark. He’s never taken a game from a man because they said ‘thief.’”
But he has not been hesitant to penalize men. Ramos gave Murray a code violation during the 2016 Olympics after Murray accused him of “stupid umpiring.”
“No sexist issue there,” said Chris Evert, the former world No. 1, on Sunday. “His history with men players shows that.”
Although Ramos has officiated more men’s matches during his career, he also has now officiated at three of the four women’s Grand Slam singles finals: the French Open in 2005, Wimbledon in 2008 and now this year’s United States Open, where he also officiated in women’s semifinal matches in 2014 and 2016. (Williams played in four of those matches.)
On Saturday, Mouratoglou admitted that he had been giving signals to Williams, although she said she did not see them. Mouratoglou also said that the current rule banning coaching during Grand Slam tournaments (it is allowed in WTA Tour events) was a gateway to “hypocrisy” because coaching was so widespread despite the rule. In its statement Sunday, the WTA said coaching should be allowed across the sport.
But privately and publicly, tennis officials — past and present — defended Ramos on Sunday. Morrissey said Mouratoglou’s coaching was so blatant it deserved to be sanctioned immediately.
Morrissey said he did not think that clear coaching could be handled with a soft warning. “It’s so rare to be able to be sure of it that the soft approach needs to be reserved for the majority of cases when it’s not clear,” he said.
Richard Ings, another former chair umpire from Australia, said Mouratoglou signaled twice “to ensure Serena saw it.”
“No way Carlos could have let that slide,” Ings said. “He had to stop it, and stop it he did. I thought Carlos was brilliant, courageous and calm.”
As for the verbal abuse, Morrissey said Ramos was restrained, not rash. www.nytimes.comGuy has history of enforcing rules and enforces them. Maybe he has questionable calls against women that p6 is referring to but I don't follow it closely enough to comment.
I can link you an article that holds the other position.
This doesnt bring us much farther and I'm unfortunately not a tennis enthusiast to be able to sincerely comment on refs.
The WTA backs Williams, the ITF backs senhor ref.
Nadal (i think) backs ref, although he said that hes feeling scrutinized by him more than other players, some reporters back Williams version of the difference in treatment...
On September 11 2018 02:14 Sn0_Man wrote:
the real shame is that after behaviour this deplorable, serena was fined less than 1% of her winnings at this tournament.
this isn't sexism, this is the kind of bullshit false victimization that gives feminism a bad rap
Entirely disagree. you call out bullshit you experience, thats how things change. And I sincerely doubt that Williams would've cried if she didn't legitimately felt being treated unfairly by the ref. She's been in way too fucking many finals to actually be that emotionally affected by a loss anymore.
There are l
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And I sincerely doubt that Williams would've cried if she didn't legitimately felt being treated unfairly by the ref. She's been in way too fucking many finals to actually be that emotionally affected by a loss anymore.
You may need to watch more sports. Athletes/coaches are completelly capable of crying for bullshit and playing the victim, even when it has been proven that they are wrong.
If it makes a difference, even female tennis pros have sided with the ref.
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Carlos Ramos (the ref in question) has been a total dick to so many players over the years it's unreal. He went after Djokavic last year in what I believe was one of the dumbest calls I've ever seen.
That being said it's pretty clear you didn't watch the finals or understand where Serena Williams was coming from. This was supposed to be her recovery story and she got destroyed in the first set and it was visibly getting to her. Then her coach fucks up and starts making hand signals so blatant it blew my mind. One thrown racquet later she's calling the ref a liar and a thief and demanding an apology from him. No shit he's going to respond to that.
It's not exactly like Serena's not prone to this kind of behavior when she's falling behind either. She gets frustrated with herself and this time picked the wrong person to take it out on. Most tennis players throw fits on the court.
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On September 11 2018 02:40 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2018 02:02 CorsairHero wrote:At the 2017 French Open, during a fourth-round match between Nadal and Roberto Batista Agut, Ramos penalized Nadal for two time violations for slow play, the second of which cost Nadal a point.
“There are umpires who sometimes put more pressure than others, and you have to accept this,” Nadal said after that match, which he won.
Nadal added: “I’m telling you this with some type of sadness, because I don’t want to have any problems. But this umpire is, I think, trying in a certain way to look for my faults, my errors. This is the impression I have.”
In the same interview, Nadal said of Ramos, “I respect him a lot.”
Active chair umpires are generally not permitted to give interviews because of tour policies. Ramos has not spoken publicly about Saturday’s match, in which Williams called him “a thief” for assessing the violations and also accused him of sexism, saying he had dealt with her more harshly than he would have a male player in the same circumstances.
“I’ve seen other men call other umpires several things,” she said after the match. “I’m here fighting for women’s rights and for women’s equality and for all kinds of stuff. For me to say ‘thief’ and for him to take a game, it made me feel like it was a sexist remark. He’s never taken a game from a man because they said ‘thief.’”
But he has not been hesitant to penalize men. Ramos gave Murray a code violation during the 2016 Olympics after Murray accused him of “stupid umpiring.”
“No sexist issue there,” said Chris Evert, the former world No. 1, on Sunday. “His history with men players shows that.”
Although Ramos has officiated more men’s matches during his career, he also has now officiated at three of the four women’s Grand Slam singles finals: the French Open in 2005, Wimbledon in 2008 and now this year’s United States Open, where he also officiated in women’s semifinal matches in 2014 and 2016. (Williams played in four of those matches.)
On Saturday, Mouratoglou admitted that he had been giving signals to Williams, although she said she did not see them. Mouratoglou also said that the current rule banning coaching during Grand Slam tournaments (it is allowed in WTA Tour events) was a gateway to “hypocrisy” because coaching was so widespread despite the rule. In its statement Sunday, the WTA said coaching should be allowed across the sport.
But privately and publicly, tennis officials — past and present — defended Ramos on Sunday. Morrissey said Mouratoglou’s coaching was so blatant it deserved to be sanctioned immediately.
Morrissey said he did not think that clear coaching could be handled with a soft warning. “It’s so rare to be able to be sure of it that the soft approach needs to be reserved for the majority of cases when it’s not clear,” he said.
Richard Ings, another former chair umpire from Australia, said Mouratoglou signaled twice “to ensure Serena saw it.”
“No way Carlos could have let that slide,” Ings said. “He had to stop it, and stop it he did. I thought Carlos was brilliant, courageous and calm.”
As for the verbal abuse, Morrissey said Ramos was restrained, not rash. www.nytimes.comGuy has history of enforcing rules and enforces them. Maybe he has questionable calls against women that p6 is referring to but I don't follow it closely enough to comment. I can link you an article that holds the other position. This doesnt bring us much farther and I'm unfortunately not a tennis enthusiast to be able to sincerely comment on refs. The WTA backs Williams, the ITF backs senhor ref. Nadal (i think) backs ref, although he said that hes feeling scrutinized by him more than other players, some reporters back Williams version of the difference in treatment... Show nested quote +On September 11 2018 02:14 Sn0_Man wrote:
the real shame is that after behaviour this deplorable, serena was fined less than 1% of her winnings at this tournament.
this isn't sexism, this is the kind of bullshit false victimization that gives feminism a bad rap Entirely disagree. you call out bullshit you experience, thats how things change. And I sincerely doubt that Williams would've cried if she didn't legitimately felt being treated unfairly by the ref. She's been in way too fucking many finals to actually be that emotionally affected by a loss anymore. There are l
The issue is that you don't do that shit in the middle of the game
You do it before or after. Arguing with a referee during a game is the dumbest shit ever in any sport
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On September 11 2018 02:14 Sn0_Man wrote:
the real shame is that after behaviour this deplorable, serena was fined less than 1% of her winnings at this tournament.
this isn't sexism, this is the kind of bullshit false victimization that gives feminism a bad rap
I'm pretty sure its men who want to treat women like shit that give feminism a bad rap. Like intentionally to undercut the entire goal of feminism. This "victimization" argument is a way to make women feel uncomfortable talking about what they feel could be sexism. And if women don't talk about it, it ins't real.
People can have a verity of opinions on the tennis match and the ref's calls. There seems to be a lot of variance in how different refs call the games, at least from my outsiders viewpoint.
On September 11 2018 02:59 OmniEulogy wrote:
Carlos Ramos (the ref in question) has been a total dick to so many players over the years it's unreal. He went after Djokavic last year in what I believe was one of the dumbest calls I've ever seen.
That being said it's pretty clear you didn't watch the finals or understand where Serena Williams was coming from. This was supposed to be her recovery story and she got destroyed in the first set and it was visibly getting to her. Then her coach fucks up and starts making hand signals so blatant it blew my mind. One thrown racquet later she's calling the ref a liar and a thief and demanding an apology from him. No shit he's going to respond to that.
It's not exactly like Serena's not prone to this kind of behavior when she's falling behind either. She gets frustrated with herself and this time picked the wrong person to take it out on. Most tennis players throw fits on the court.
Interesting. But this ref is particular calls players on it, while other don't?
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I think they all do but they have their lines on what would constitute just giving a warning to a player vs penalizing them. Especially in the finals where people want to see the players play with as little interference as possible. Normally I don't think smashing her racket should be a violation, it should just be a warning but because of everything else I guess he felt differently.
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On September 11 2018 03:25 OmniEulogy wrote:
I think they all do but they have their lines on what would constitute just giving a warning to a player vs penalizing them. Especially in the finals where people want to see the players play with as little interference as possible. Normally I don't think smashing her racket should be a violation, it should just be a warning but because of everything else I guess he felt differently.
Smashing the racket is the one thing that absolutelly could not be a warning. It's not even on the hands of the referee. The other two infractions could perhaps have been warnings, or nothing at all, with a softer judge, but literally every single player will get an infraction for smashing his racket. Maybe if it was out of nowhere, but not after previous violations.
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On September 11 2018 02:54 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +And I sincerely doubt that Williams would've cried if she didn't legitimately felt being treated unfairly by the ref. She's been in way too fucking many finals to actually be that emotionally affected by a loss anymore. You may need to watch more sports. Athletes/coaches are completelly capable of crying for bullshit and playing the victim, even when it has been proven that they are wrong. If it makes a difference, even female tennis pros have sided with the ref.
Fair enough.
Quite possible that you omni are right on the part of me having to watch it to comment on her then mental state.
In the context of the refs rep this still doesn't look good on him.
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Ah you're right, for some reason I thought there was a grey line with throwing the racket the same way there is kicking a bag / water bottle.
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My personal take is that he handed out a penalty like he normally would and didn’t like that she talked back, so he double down every time she stepped out of line. Regardless, it is a bad look for the entire set because a ref with a history of being a dick now dominates the headlines.
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she also brought her kid into the discussion when talking to the ref which was....interesting
maybe thats the kind of victimization that sn0 is referring to
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Yeah it takes away from just how well Naomi Osaka was playing because she was REALLY good. Kind of an unfortunate end to a great tournament.
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im more curious as to whether this ref works another williams match after her character was "attacked"
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On September 11 2018 00:37 PoulsenB wrote:
Also do people in the US really use gmail for business purposes?
the big old giants use outlook/outlook 365 for legacy reasons but gsuite is suppose to be cheaper so newer groups might use that
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Greenpeace uses Google as well.
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On September 11 2018 03:55 CorsairHero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2018 00:37 PoulsenB wrote:
Also do people in the US really use gmail for business purposes? the big old giants use outlook/outlook 365 for legacy reasons but gsuite is suppose to be cheaper so newer groups might use that
The entire world of law use bad email clients, but we also hate email and still use fax machines. Though fax machines don’t create digital records, which is half the reason we still use them.
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EPT
