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On March 29 2014 19:27 cecek wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2014 19:23 Ru ba wrote:
why is he clueless?
as far as I know anyone that buys a ticket can cast a game,which really means that anyone that can cast a game can stream it as well.Only one that owns shit is valve and teams play on their servers.Organizations don't own jack shit apart from their own stream,cast and what ever footage they produce separate to the actual game.
I don't think he's in the wrong here. Well, you're wrong. You can't cast a game if you buy a ticket, you never could. People had their twitch accounts closed for that in the past.
I'm like 99% sure you can cast any game that is available live on dota servers and that it was the core idea behind dota tv.
Like when valve made dota tv the premise was,ok anyone can cast and anyone can watch(if you buy a ticket ofc)
If I'm wrong I guess I'm clueless 2 idk
Cyborgmatt 521 points 12 hours ago
If you own the ticket then you're allowed to cast the game. Organizers shutting people down with DMCA requests should be boycotted and removed from this community.
so yea
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On March 29 2014 19:23 Ru ba wrote:
as far as I know anyone that buys a ticket can cast a game,which really means that anyone that can cast a game can stream it as well
Valve never said anything about doing that. So it is unclear whether Valve allows that or not. However, this has happened several times before and Valve never went in and said "it is okay to restream tournaments" and they explicitly state that you are allowed to restream the International, it is pretty fair to assume that Valve doesn't allow people to stream games just because you bought the ticket.
And his superbowl comparison is just crap, there is a huge difference between a public stream and your garden, and I would bet that putting such a huge monitor and showing the game is already illegal.
On March 29 2014 19:30 Ru ba wrote:Show nested quote +Cyborgmatt 521 points 12 hours ago
If you own the ticket then you're allowed to cast the game. Organizers shutting people down with DMCA requests should be boycotted and removed from this community. so yea
and?
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I think it's wrong if you restream someones stream.
If you stream something from dota tv that you have a ticket for and have your own cast than i don't see whats wrong with that
again I might be wrong I guess
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no because the official stream usually has some other production,the stats thing,sponsor logos and all that jazz with it.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
How is nothing wrong with that? If we take this concrete example, it was a tournament sponsored by Dailymotion and Pflax tried to stream it on a competing streaming platform. How in the world is that ok?
You put money to a tournament organizer, you expect something in return, logo/advertisement on the screen or between games, etc. If you allow anyone to stream that it's really hard to guarantee that return to a potential sponsor. I have no idea what Cyborgmatt is talking about with boycotting tournaments, that's totally ridiculous, what the fuck.
edit for the guy above me: If anything, restreaming the stream with the sponsor stuff on the screen is better than just streaming from a ticket, rofl.
@Yoshi Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking too. Versuta streams a game from a ticket, reaction: "BAN THAT FUCKER FROM TWITCH". Pflax streams a game from a ticket, reaction: "Wtf, we should boycott the tournament, this is not fair". This is making me sick.
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yea but the question is who owns the actual platform.Again,my understanding is that dota tv is free for everyone to do with it what ever they want,if you get access to a game,you can cast it.that's my understanding on how dota tv works.
it might be morally wrong but if that's how valve set it up than that's how it works.
although twitch has the responsibility of deciding whether it's allowed or not to stream it when it comes to their platform.
So technically twitch might decide,"hey,fuck daily motion" and allow people to stream that stuff if they want.
and btw that versuta thing,I also think it wasn't necessarily justified to ban that guy either,but tobi made a huge fuss around it so he got fisted.
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there's a reason networks pay billions for the rights to sport...so there is no one else that can broadcast it.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
It's kind of a gray area and I think it's twitch's decision to side with the tournament organizers. But it makes perfect sense, I don't see a single reasonable argument as to why they should allow restreaming.
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I think the probleme here is, that it was a DM tournament on a twitch steam - which I understand. I don't think there would have been an issue, if it was a twitch tournament. At least I think it shouldn't be an issue if it would have been like that.
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He streamed their tournaments without mentioning the actual sponsors, that always an issue even if it is on the same site.
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If i would cast dreamhack or ironsquid sc2, everyone would hang me by the balls and rightly so. There are sponsors paying the bills and they need something to make the investment worth it. Else, no more big tournaments.
If you want to cast a game then just cast a game, but not a game is sponsored and casted by a professional organisation that needs a return on investment.
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On March 29 2014 20:31 govie wrote:
If i would cast dreamhack or ironsquid sc2, everyone would hang me by the balls and rightly so. There are sponsors paying the bills and they need something to make the investment worth it. Else, no more big tournaments.
If you want to cast a game then just cast a game, but not a game is sponsored and casted by a professional organisation that needs a return on investment.
And if you were to cast a restream of iron squid or dreamhack you would get hung by the balls for the right reasons. The whole point of dota tv is that any game in it can be casted by whoever wants to cast it. If you just cast someone elses stream that's fucking stupid and of course you should get shut down.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
On March 29 2014 20:35 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2014 20:31 govie wrote:
If i would cast dreamhack or ironsquid sc2, everyone would hang me by the balls and rightly so. There are sponsors paying the bills and they need something to make the investment worth it. Else, no more big tournaments.
If you want to cast a game then just cast a game, but not a game is sponsored and casted by a professional organisation that needs a return on investment. And if you were to cast a restream of iron squid or dreamhack you would get hung by the balls for the right reasons. The whole point of dota tv is that any game in it can be casted by whoever wants to cast it. If you just cast someone elses stream that's fucking stupid and of course you should get shut down.
Is that your opinion? I would like to see some source of that. And no, I don't take Cyborgmatt's reddit post as a source. Because it happens ALL THE FUCKING TIME. joinDOTA had exclusivity on casting Sina Cup. I'm pretty sure BTS has exclusivity on casting the current season of Starladder.
Imagine if you're talking to a sponsor, you tell him "tournaments of this size can get up to 60k concurrents on big games" and he asks "So all the people will be watching our official stream with my logo on the screen and stuff?" and you would reply "well no, anyone who buys this $10 ticket can stream it and I can't do shit about that." Doesn't sound nice, does it? Organizers have to have a way to guarantee exclusivity, there's just no fucking way.
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On March 29 2014 20:35 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2014 20:31 govie wrote:
If i would cast dreamhack or ironsquid sc2, everyone would hang me by the balls and rightly so. There are sponsors paying the bills and they need something to make the investment worth it. Else, no more big tournaments.
If you want to cast a game then just cast a game, but not a game is sponsored and casted by a professional organisation that needs a return on investment. And if you were to cast a restream of iron squid or dreamhack you would get hung by the balls for the right reasons. The whole point of dota tv is that any game in it can be casted by whoever wants to cast it. If you just cast someone elses stream that's fucking stupid and of course you should get shut down.
Companies will not pay the bills to organize a tournament with a starting pricepool of 25k/50k without any form of reliable return of investment through live streaming and vods. If the community wants open dotatv for every match, then most, maybe every big tournament will never be held again or in a smaller scale. The proscene will shrink eventually because less sponsormoney.
So, people should ask themselves if they want too have the possibility to watch big tournaments without casterchoice and a big proscene, or not to watch alot of professional tournaments at all.
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esports is dying once again..
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On March 29 2014 20:43 cecek wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2014 20:35 kollin wrote:On March 29 2014 20:31 govie wrote:
If i would cast dreamhack or ironsquid sc2, everyone would hang me by the balls and rightly so. There are sponsors paying the bills and they need something to make the investment worth it. Else, no more big tournaments.
If you want to cast a game then just cast a game, but not a game is sponsored and casted by a professional organisation that needs a return on investment. And if you were to cast a restream of iron squid or dreamhack you would get hung by the balls for the right reasons. The whole point of dota tv is that any game in it can be casted by whoever wants to cast it. If you just cast someone elses stream that's fucking stupid and of course you should get shut down. Is that your opinion? I would like to see some source of that. And no, I don't take Cyborgmatt's reddit post as a source. Because it happens ALL THE FUCKING TIME. joinDOTA had exclusivity on casting Sina Cup. I'm pretty sure BTS has exclusivity on casting the current season of Starladder. Imagine if you're talking to a sponsor, you tell him "tournaments of this size can get up to 60k concurrents on big games" and he asks "So all the people will be watching our official stream with my logo on the screen and stuff?" and you would reply "well no, anyone who buys this $10 ticket can stream it and I can't do shit about that." Doesn't sound nice, does it? Organizers have to have a way to guarantee exclusivity, there's just no fucking way.
Valve are the ones who have said it, it has never really been an issue that streamers would steal viewers though. I think I remember a caster commenting on this saying that if you cant keep the viewers on your stream (meaning they go to alternative streams of same games) then it is your own fault.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
On March 29 2014 21:39 Roflhaxx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2014 20:43 cecek wrote:On March 29 2014 20:35 kollin wrote:On March 29 2014 20:31 govie wrote:
If i would cast dreamhack or ironsquid sc2, everyone would hang me by the balls and rightly so. There are sponsors paying the bills and they need something to make the investment worth it. Else, no more big tournaments.
If you want to cast a game then just cast a game, but not a game is sponsored and casted by a professional organisation that needs a return on investment. And if you were to cast a restream of iron squid or dreamhack you would get hung by the balls for the right reasons. The whole point of dota tv is that any game in it can be casted by whoever wants to cast it. If you just cast someone elses stream that's fucking stupid and of course you should get shut down. Is that your opinion? I would like to see some source of that. And no, I don't take Cyborgmatt's reddit post as a source. Because it happens ALL THE FUCKING TIME. joinDOTA had exclusivity on casting Sina Cup. I'm pretty sure BTS has exclusivity on casting the current season of Starladder. Imagine if you're talking to a sponsor, you tell him "tournaments of this size can get up to 60k concurrents on big games" and he asks "So all the people will be watching our official stream with my logo on the screen and stuff?" and you would reply "well no, anyone who buys this $10 ticket can stream it and I can't do shit about that." Doesn't sound nice, does it? Organizers have to have a way to guarantee exclusivity, there's just no fucking way. Valve are the ones who have said it, it has never really been an issue that streamers would steal viewers though. I think I remember a caster commenting on this saying that if you cant keep the viewers on your stream (meaning they go to alternative streams of same games) then it is your own fault.
Again... can you provide source? It's cool that you say "Valve said it" but I have yet to see them explicitly say that it is ok. Also, it has happened with Versuta. The reason why it usually is not an issue is that people who can attract a significant amount of viewers are smart enough not to stream games they're not allowed to stream, so organizers usually don't bother with it. The two biggest examples of this are Versuta and now Pflax.
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On March 29 2014 21:48 cecek wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2014 21:39 Roflhaxx wrote:On March 29 2014 20:43 cecek wrote:On March 29 2014 20:35 kollin wrote:On March 29 2014 20:31 govie wrote:
If i would cast dreamhack or ironsquid sc2, everyone would hang me by the balls and rightly so. There are sponsors paying the bills and they need something to make the investment worth it. Else, no more big tournaments.
If you want to cast a game then just cast a game, but not a game is sponsored and casted by a professional organisation that needs a return on investment. And if you were to cast a restream of iron squid or dreamhack you would get hung by the balls for the right reasons. The whole point of dota tv is that any game in it can be casted by whoever wants to cast it. If you just cast someone elses stream that's fucking stupid and of course you should get shut down. Is that your opinion? I would like to see some source of that. And no, I don't take Cyborgmatt's reddit post as a source. Because it happens ALL THE FUCKING TIME. joinDOTA had exclusivity on casting Sina Cup. I'm pretty sure BTS has exclusivity on casting the current season of Starladder. Imagine if you're talking to a sponsor, you tell him "tournaments of this size can get up to 60k concurrents on big games" and he asks "So all the people will be watching our official stream with my logo on the screen and stuff?" and you would reply "well no, anyone who buys this $10 ticket can stream it and I can't do shit about that." Doesn't sound nice, does it? Organizers have to have a way to guarantee exclusivity, there's just no fucking way. Valve are the ones who have said it, it has never really been an issue that streamers would steal viewers though. I think I remember a caster commenting on this saying that if you cant keep the viewers on your stream (meaning they go to alternative streams of same games) then it is your own fault. Again... can you provide source? It's cool that you say "Valve said it" but I have yet to see them explicitly say that it is ok. Also, it has happened with Versuta. The reason why it usually is not an issue is that people who can attract a significant amount of viewers are smart enough not to stream games they're not allowed to stream, so organizers usually don't bother with it. The two biggest examples of this are Versuta and now Pflax.
Its really hard to find blog updates from Valve from over two years ago. But I aswell remember streaming/casting was a spesific point they touched on when advertising their ticket system. You need to realize that its Valve who owns everything in dota and they decide. No one else can tell you you're not allowed to stream Valves content, even if its games run by another organization.
Also, people will always be drawn to the official stream because simply its the official one. If it happens one day that the official stream is outdone by another stream, then its the casters fault.
Its ok to discuss the ethics of it by all means. But the legality of it is set in stone.
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On March 29 2014 21:11 zezamer wrote:
esports is dying once again..
Yep and now everyone knows the true "intent" of dota TV, even of valve never expressly stated.
Companies are going to protect their products. Anyone who doesn't like it is free to not watch their events.
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EPT
