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On September 19 2013 23:05 Mataza wrote:Reading stuff like the last few pages always gives me 2 thoughts: - I am awesome for being able to pronounce many common european words from french, greek, scandinavian(no idea which one exactly mjollnir is from) and also japanese words(shukuchi)
- Am I really pronouncing these things correctly, or am I ignorant and butchering those same words?
But when I think about my doubts, I can still proudly say that I have an idea or two how to pronounce them. Sadly it would be more useful for dota games if I could swear in russian(besides maybe cyka "soo-ka" and maybe idi nahui "ee-dee na-who-ee")
You can look it up. I'd be willing to bet that you're getting the tones on the Japanese words wrong.
But yes, people are capable of learning lots of different languages and pronunciations, and we have a very interconnected culture these days.
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Watching Dota2 is great, I just wish the casters in general were close to as good as the SC2 ones. Aside from the BTS guys, who are pretty much all great, I really dislike most of the other casters. PorcelainLily is actually pretty good too, she's not that articulate but she emphasizes the right things, I think, and makes for a pretty good watch.
Tobi / Ayesee are like watching TB in that they don't really know the game that well and compensate by yelling alot. Sheever is kind of annoying, isn't that articulate, and it feels like she has very little game knowledge and just says things at random. I just watched some guys casting the Netolic league and they somehow never mentioned that a standin Puck was at 7 CS when the QoP he was against was sitting at 43 or something. Sure it's obvious, but it makes me question if they know what going on when they don't see something like that.
Hopefully as the scene evolves alot of these people are able to improve their casting ability and make matches easier to watch.
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On September 20 2013 00:14 Skipper240 wrote:
Watching Dota2 is great, I just wish the casters in general were close to as good as the SC2 ones. Aside from the BTS guys, who are pretty much all great, I really dislike most of the other casters. PorcelainLily is actually pretty good too, she's not that articulate but she emphasizes the right things, I think, and makes for a pretty good watch.
Tobi / Ayesee are like watching TB in that they don't really know the game that well and compensate by yelling alot. Sheever is kind of annoying, isn't that articulate, and it feels like she has very little game knowledge and just says things at random. I just watched some guys casting the Netolic league and they somehow never mentioned that a standin Puck was at 7 CS when the QoP he was against was sitting at 43 or something. Sure it's obvious, but it makes me question if they know what going on when they don't see something like that.
Hopefully as the scene evolves alot of these people are able to improve their casting ability and make matches easier to watch.
You are nit picking a bit, IMO. I find the casting from most folks to be more than acceptable and they don't need to pick out every little thing. They are not providing casting for people are camped in the game client, looking at stuff for themselves. Not highlighting the exact number of CS between the two mids is really that big of a deal with everything else that does on in a game.
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On September 20 2013 00:21 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2013 00:14 Skipper240 wrote:
Watching Dota2 is great, I just wish the casters in general were close to as good as the SC2 ones. Aside from the BTS guys, who are pretty much all great, I really dislike most of the other casters. PorcelainLily is actually pretty good too, she's not that articulate but she emphasizes the right things, I think, and makes for a pretty good watch.
Tobi / Ayesee are like watching TB in that they don't really know the game that well and compensate by yelling alot. Sheever is kind of annoying, isn't that articulate, and it feels like she has very little game knowledge and just says things at random. I just watched some guys casting the Netolic league and they somehow never mentioned that a standin Puck was at 7 CS when the QoP he was against was sitting at 43 or something. Sure it's obvious, but it makes me question if they know what going on when they don't see something like that.
Hopefully as the scene evolves alot of these people are able to improve their casting ability and make matches easier to watch. You are nit picking a bit, IMO. I find the casting from most folks to be more than acceptable and they don't need to pick out every little thing. They are not providing casting for people are camped in the game client, looking at stuff for themselves. Not highlighting the exact number of CS between the two mids is really that big of a deal with everything else that does on in a game.
Also adding this, there is simply no observers outside the casters to let them %100 focus on game while in SC2 pretty much all tourneys have one. I did some amateur local Dota casting and it is very hard to follow every detail while moving the screen, following minimap, talk, think etc.. very little room to do anything perfectly.
Another point may be, all the caster that you mentioned have no previous competitive experience, they are more like ambitious individuals, love the game and nothing more. You can understand it by watching Merlini or some other pro, they are reading game more deeply than any other caster you mention. Maybe we need more time and more retired Dota 2 pros for it.
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Northern Ireland22213 Posts
On September 20 2013 00:34 Laserist wrote:
Another point may be, all the caster that you mentioned have no previous competitive experience, they are more like ambitious individuals, love the game and nothing more. You can understand it by watching Merlini or some other pro, they are reading game more deeply than any other caster you mention. Maybe we need more time and more retired Dota 2 pros for it.
This pretty much.
It was really apparent when Singsing was unofficially casting the TI3 group stages games.
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Its also harder to describe the tactical options and choices of 10 players compared to 2, even if each individual player is arguably doing something simpler.
And teamfights are wildly different from RTS engagements.
Compare:
"Oh he's storming the mutalisks but look at that split OMG the micro now X is targetting down the collosi and protoss is forced to fall back"
vs
"Well lina hit a 3 man stun and visage birds followed up but ravage and black hole and wow TA is getting away with 10 hp and... " I just described 5 of 10 heroes in the teamfight and didn't even properly describe what is going on with any of them compared to the SC2 one where the entire engagement is described pretty fully.
Its not fair to expect Dota casters to be able to analyze fights the way SC2 casters can.
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On September 20 2013 00:14 Skipper240 wrote:
Watching Dota2 is great, I just wish the casters in general were close to as good as the SC2 ones. Aside from the BTS guys, who are pretty much all great, I really dislike most of the other casters. PorcelainLily is actually pretty good too, she's not that articulate but she emphasizes the right things, I think, and makes for a pretty good watch.
Tobi / Ayesee are like watching TB in that they don't really know the game that well and compensate by yelling alot. Sheever is kind of annoying, isn't that articulate, and it feels like she has very little game knowledge and just says things at random. I just watched some guys casting the Netolic league and they somehow never mentioned that a standin Puck was at 7 CS when the QoP he was against was sitting at 43 or something. Sure it's obvious, but it makes me question if they know what going on when they don't see something like that.
Hopefully as the scene evolves alot of these people are able to improve their casting ability and make matches easier to watch.
You make it sound like SC2 casters knows what they are talking about.
BTS + Draskyl and then Apollo, Artosis, ToD and Rotterdam
About as many on both sides. It's also pretty common for pros to be co-commentating in Dota. Waga, Synderen are very frequent casters. But others like Puppey, Bdiz, Bulldog, Bulba etc also does it from time to time.
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On September 20 2013 00:55 Sn0_Man wrote:
Its also harder to describe the tactical options and choices of 10 players compared to 2, even if each individual player is arguably doing something simpler.
And teamfights are wildly different from RTS engagements.
Compare:
"Oh he's storming the mutalisks but look at that split OMG the micro now X is targetting down the collosi and protoss is forced to fall back"
vs
"Well lina hit a 3 man stun and visage birds followed up but ravage and black hole and wow TA is getting away with 10 hp and... " I just described 5 of 10 heroes in the teamfight and didn't even properly describe what is going on with any of them compared to the SC2 one where the entire engagement is described pretty fully.
Its not fair to expect Dota casters to be able to analyze fights the way SC2 casters can.
Describing a teamfight completely isn't equal to being a good caster. You could do a great job covering teamfights and still be a pretty terrible caster / have no knowledge.
Also comparing teamfights in Dota2 to engagements in SC2 is pretty silly.
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On September 20 2013 00:34 Laserist wrote:
Another point may be, all the caster that you mentioned have no previous competitive experience, they are more like ambitious individuals, love the game and nothing more. You can understand it by watching Merlini or some other pro, they are reading game more deeply than any other caster you mention. Maybe we need more time and more retired Dota 2 pros for it.
Fair points. Maybe I'm just looking for more analytical casting in general which would explain why I tend to prefer the BTS casts over just about any others. Hopefully, like you said, this will improve as more experienced people start moving over to commentator positions / the scene as a whole gets more familiar with the game.
Still, it hurts in the meantime. 
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On September 20 2013 00:57 Comeh wrote:
Also comparing teamfights in Dota2 to engagements in SC2 is pretty silly.
That's half his point
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99% of the sc2 casters just act like they know something, which they dont.
i bet most of the ppl still think day9 has any idea about sc2
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On September 20 2013 00:55 Sn0_Man wrote:
Its also harder to describe the tactical options and choices of 10 players compared to 2, even if each individual player is arguably doing something simpler.
And teamfights are wildly different from RTS engagements.
Compare:
"Oh he's storming the mutalisks but look at that split OMG the micro now X is targetting down the collosi and protoss is forced to fall back"
vs
"Well lina hit a 3 man stun and visage birds followed up but ravage and black hole and wow TA is getting away with 10 hp and... " I just described 5 of 10 heroes in the teamfight and didn't even properly describe what is going on with any of them compared to the SC2 one where the entire engagement is described pretty fully.
Its not fair to expect Dota casters to be able to analyze fights the way SC2 casters can.
I get what you're saying and I agree. It's unreasonable to expect any caster to be able to analyze a Dota 2 engagement in the same way that someone can break down a SC 2 engagement, but I'd argue that that isn't really required to have an exceptional cast in DotA. IMO, a good DotA cast will focus way more on pointing out smaller, progressive gains because those gains are so much harder to see than in a SC2 game where power spikes (I guess production in SC2 terms) are so much more obvious.
Personally, I don't have an issue with DotA casters missing small details of games. Missing a FB or a gank in DotA is like missing a drop when a push in happening SC2 - it totally happens and it's not a big deal. What I generally dislike about DotA casters at the moment, BTS and a few others excluded, is that it feels like the casters don't really understand which team is winning a game and why they're winning.
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Fair. I always find it funny when a team tries to go high-ground, gets a great engage but the other team buys back 3 or 4 heroes and hold it off. "Oh the gold graph didn't change much radiant missed a huge opportunity there great hold by dire" LOL dire just wrecked themselves in order to last 3 more minutes but the gold graph doesn't take into account stuff like buybacks.
Some casters are better about this than others but w/e. Also casters who pull up the XP graph at 40+ minutes into the game like its supposed to matter.
On September 20 2013 01:00 ReignSupreme. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2013 00:57 Comeh wrote:
Also comparing teamfights in Dota2 to engagements in SC2 is pretty silly. That's half his point
Exactly 
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On September 20 2013 01:13 Skipper240 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2013 00:55 Sn0_Man wrote:
Its also harder to describe the tactical options and choices of 10 players compared to 2, even if each individual player is arguably doing something simpler.
And teamfights are wildly different from RTS engagements.
Compare:
"Oh he's storming the mutalisks but look at that split OMG the micro now X is targetting down the collosi and protoss is forced to fall back"
vs
"Well lina hit a 3 man stun and visage birds followed up but ravage and black hole and wow TA is getting away with 10 hp and... " I just described 5 of 10 heroes in the teamfight and didn't even properly describe what is going on with any of them compared to the SC2 one where the entire engagement is described pretty fully.
Its not fair to expect Dota casters to be able to analyze fights the way SC2 casters can. I get what you're saying and I agree. It's unreasonable to expect any caster to be able to analyze a Dota 2 engagement in the same way that someone can break down a SC 2 engagement, but I'd argue that that isn't really required to have an exceptional cast in DotA. IMO, a good DotA cast will focus way more on pointing out smaller, progressive gains because those gains are so much harder to see than in a SC2 game where power spikes (I guess production in SC2 terms) are so much more obvious. Personally, I don't have an issue with DotA casters missing small details of games. Missing a FB or a gank in DotA is like missing a drop when a push in happening SC2 - it totally happens and it's not a big deal. What I generally dislike about DotA casters at the moment, BTS and a few others excluded, is that it feels like the casters don't really understand which team is winning a game and why they're winning.
probably because that is super hard to determine in a short amount of time as there are a ton of variables
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On September 20 2013 01:27 cilinder007 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2013 01:13 Skipper240 wrote:On September 20 2013 00:55 Sn0_Man wrote:
Its also harder to describe the tactical options and choices of 10 players compared to 2, even if each individual player is arguably doing something simpler.
And teamfights are wildly different from RTS engagements.
Compare:
"Oh he's storming the mutalisks but look at that split OMG the micro now X is targetting down the collosi and protoss is forced to fall back"
vs
"Well lina hit a 3 man stun and visage birds followed up but ravage and black hole and wow TA is getting away with 10 hp and... " I just described 5 of 10 heroes in the teamfight and didn't even properly describe what is going on with any of them compared to the SC2 one where the entire engagement is described pretty fully.
Its not fair to expect Dota casters to be able to analyze fights the way SC2 casters can. I get what you're saying and I agree. It's unreasonable to expect any caster to be able to analyze a Dota 2 engagement in the same way that someone can break down a SC 2 engagement, but I'd argue that that isn't really required to have an exceptional cast in DotA. IMO, a good DotA cast will focus way more on pointing out smaller, progressive gains because those gains are so much harder to see than in a SC2 game where power spikes (I guess production in SC2 terms) are so much more obvious. Personally, I don't have an issue with DotA casters missing small details of games. Missing a FB or a gank in DotA is like missing a drop when a push in happening SC2 - it totally happens and it's not a big deal. What I generally dislike about DotA casters at the moment, BTS and a few others excluded, is that it feels like the casters don't really understand which team is winning a game and why they're winning. probably because that is super hard to determine in a short amount of time as there are a ton of variables
It all comes down to actions and the number of people involved.
SC2: One caster(speaking) describing the actions of two people.
Dota 2: One caster describing the actions of 10 people.
Plus all the partical effects in Dota 2 are not as noticable. Good luck noticing someone using orchid in the middle of a team fight with Puck, DP, Dazzle and Storm Spirit. Its like a disco party in there.
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If all you do is give someone a mic and 12 hours of Dota to scream about, it's obvious he's gonna spout bullshit once in a while. On the other hand korean BW casters were recognized for their brilliance also because they had an entire TV channel production at their backs.
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Again, I feel like "accurate" calling out everything that happens in a teamfight is a very, very small skill when it comes to being a good caster in dota.
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On September 20 2013 01:37 Soap wrote:
If all you do is give someone a mic and 12 hours of Dota to scream about, it's obvious he's gonna spout bullshit once in a while. On the other hand korean BW casters were recognized for their brilliance also because they had an entire TV channel production at their backs.
As Arotsis said "Of course they always have things to say, they are working from a script. That's why there are three casters."
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On September 20 2013 00:46 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2013 00:34 Laserist wrote:
Another point may be, all the caster that you mentioned have no previous competitive experience, they are more like ambitious individuals, love the game and nothing more. You can understand it by watching Merlini or some other pro, they are reading game more deeply than any other caster you mention. Maybe we need more time and more retired Dota 2 pros for it.
This pretty much. It was really apparent when Singsing was unofficially casting the TI3 group stages games.
I really enjoyed that. I wish more pros would just casually do that, it was really interesting to get that kind of view on a game.
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I think the popular casters in DotA are generally good but it is obviously a taste thing.
I'm of the opinion that "analytical" stuff loses its flavor after watching so many games. It is good for newer players that don't understand the general flow of the game. I really just prefer good play-by-play casting now. I can usually recognize which team is winning and by how much. On the other hand, I sometimes can't catch that clutch orchid in a teamfight or key ward placements or that rubick spell steal or something like that.
The obvious exception to this would probably be in the draft, where I think a more knowledgeable, more experienced caster is universally better.
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EPT
