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On July 08 2013 06:55 SnowfaLL wrote:
It seems like the future of competitive dota will slowly turn into supports that have carry potential; such as the Naga supports lately or Alchemist supports... The way I see it (as a support player) this is a great idea especially for pub games because I can play support with wardage/etc, but still carry lategame if my pub carry fails hard (happens 90% of the time) so it sure seems like the method of choice.
A hero with some sort of stun/net or decent AOE seems to be the way to go. A way to effect the earlygame but still enough atk dmg to own the late game..
Gonna start exploring this more if I get into playing pubs again (currently uninstalled lol)
this was EE's thing back when he was drafting for NTH. I remember a game where they had like...LS, LD, Sven, Gyro and something else, and Sven/Gyro were roaming supports
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On July 08 2013 07:00 Rybka wrote:
If they had it in the bag 100%, why pause?
Total BS. DotA leagues need to establish strict policies around pausing.
DD's computer wasn't working. Before the pause, watching from his perspective, he's completely still for about a second. No cursor movement at all.
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why are there server problems in the fucking prime time...
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On July 08 2013 07:22 Meerel wrote:
why are there server problems in the fucking prime time...
Server problems almost always happen in prime time. Just saying
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It's because in prime time the most people access the server.
Once you invent the server that gets more stable the more people try to simultaneous use it, you're gonna be a rich man. Until then serverss are going to get less stable the more work they have to do.
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On July 08 2013 07:01 hooahah wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 06:55 SnowfaLL wrote:
It seems like the future of competitive dota will slowly turn into supports that have carry potential; such as the Naga supports lately or Alchemist supports... The way I see it (as a support player) this is a great idea especially for pub games because I can play support with wardage/etc, but still carry lategame if my pub carry fails hard (happens 90% of the time) so it sure seems like the method of choice.
A hero with some sort of stun/net or decent AOE seems to be the way to go. A way to effect the earlygame but still enough atk dmg to own the late game..
Gonna start exploring this more if I get into playing pubs again (currently uninstalled lol) this was EE's thing back when he was drafting for NTH. I remember a game where they had like...LS, LD, Sven, Gyro and something else, and Sven/Gyro were roaming supports
I highly disagree. Naga isn't being picked because she has carry potential. She gets virtually ZERO farm in the support role outside of maybe being able to get drums. Just because you're good late game doesn't mean you're good late game with no items. Sven in particular is a TERRIBLE late game support because his ultimate depends on having items to back it up, he's a melee hero, and he'll die just about instantly in any team fight even if he manages to get BKB.
Gyro is also a terrible late game support. His rocket barrage does huge amounts of damage which is super good for roaming and ensuring kills, but that and his ultimate falls off in the late game. Compare this to someone like nyx who gives you huge amounts of map pressure, a great stun, mana burn and carapace and it's not even close who's better support in the late game.
If you want late game damage in your supports you go for heroes like Visage who imo is the best overall support right now next to wisp.
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problem with supports with carry potential is that they take time to get rolling,
naga is more than useless early. if you get a good trilane against you youre a goner. even some traditional support have the problem of needing levels, like sand king, and naga is even worse than him in terms of needing levels.
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On July 08 2013 07:43 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 07:01 hooahah wrote:On July 08 2013 06:55 SnowfaLL wrote:
It seems like the future of competitive dota will slowly turn into supports that have carry potential; such as the Naga supports lately or Alchemist supports... The way I see it (as a support player) this is a great idea especially for pub games because I can play support with wardage/etc, but still carry lategame if my pub carry fails hard (happens 90% of the time) so it sure seems like the method of choice.
A hero with some sort of stun/net or decent AOE seems to be the way to go. A way to effect the earlygame but still enough atk dmg to own the late game..
Gonna start exploring this more if I get into playing pubs again (currently uninstalled lol) this was EE's thing back when he was drafting for NTH. I remember a game where they had like...LS, LD, Sven, Gyro and something else, and Sven/Gyro were roaming supports I highly disagree. Naga isn't being picked because she has carry potential. She gets virtually ZERO farm in the support role outside of maybe being able to get drums. Just because you're good late game doesn't mean you're good late game with no items. Sven in particular is a TERRIBLE late game support because his ultimate depends on having items to back it up, he's a melee hero, and he'll die just about instantly in any team fight even if he manages to get BKB. Gyro is also a terrible late game support. His rocket barrage does huge amounts of damage which is super good for roaming and ensuring kills, but that and his ultimate falls off in the late game. Compare this to someone like nyx who gives you huge amounts of map pressure, a great stun, mana burn and carapace and it's not even close who's better support in the late game. If you want late game damage in your supports you go for heroes like Visage who imo is the best overall support right now next to wisp.
The point being of naga and alch is that they are able to to get farm when they have room later in the game. Naga can farm quick with illusions, alch has goblins greend, sven has cleave, gyro has flak cannon. They are able to get the items when there is farm available.
Compare that to the likes of wisp/nyx/etc. Not only do they not do well with the late game money, they are unable to get it quickly. The point is that lately games have either been 20 minute gg's, 40 minute timings, or games going 60+. In those games that don't end at 40 (which tends to be a lot these days), these farming supports (who can do it quickly) better their team later on.
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On July 08 2013 07:48 deichkind wrote:
problem with supports with carry potential is that they take time to get rolling,
naga is more than useless early. if you get a good trilane against you youre a goner. even some traditional support have the problem of needing levels, like sand king, and naga is even worse than him in terms of needing levels.
riptide is one of the highest lvl 1 nukes in the game, is aoe, and amplifies early damage by a huge amount due to everyone's low amount of armor.
Net is a 2 second disable at lvl 1 and later in the game goes through bkb (thus one of the strongest counters to bkb melee heroes in mid games such as AM, alch etc.)
Tell me how she is useless early game, and desperately needs levels despite having such good early and mid game potential (not to mention potential illusion use for camping 3-4 camps at once).
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when you pick a support that has carry potential, you have to have a 2-3 thats willing to give up farm, and is on a hero that can give up that farm
Like, Nyx or something
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so you either get a nuke that you need to walk up to the oppenent or you get a 2 sec immoblize.
illusion farming? so now you want points into that so you can farm, cant farm very well with them without items or points into the skill, do you choose that over net/ripetide? or are they maxed already, if so thats alot fo levels for a support.
get a duo stun lane, lesh lina or something and youll roll over naga. youll loose the lane hard good luck farming with her when you dont have any map control.
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so EU west is down for maintainence now... 'murica, here I come.
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On July 08 2013 08:01 deichkind wrote:
so you either get a nuke that you need to walk up to the oppenent or you get a 2 sec immoblize.
illusion farming? so now you want points into that so you can farm, cant farm very well with them without items or points into the skill, do you choose that over net/ripetide? or are they maxed already, if so thats alot fo levels for a support.
get a duo stun lane, lesh lina or something and youll roll over naga. youll loose the lane hard good luck farming with her when you dont have any map control.
So naga is solo in a lane now? Also why would you ever do lesh lina -_- both are hit/miss stuns. Illusions stacking requires 1 level in illusions, and doesn't even need to be done early game.
Notice how i said lvl 1 riptide, if you're in a trilane vs trilane levels are going to be low so having effective low level spells is a must, and if you have a good lane then naga walking up shouldn't be the hardest thing in the world.
Also you make it sound like naga is farming early in the game. The whole discussion is about heroes who farm later on in the game and make use of said farm. Riptide and illusions farm really well despite not having items most of the time due to them being illusions and minus armor -_-
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yeah yeah wrong combo, and since its clear youve made up your mind i wont bother. youre right she awesome from the start doesnt need levels or anything and the mighty farm she can accumalte in the late game will surely turn the tide of the battle to your favour.
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On July 08 2013 08:14 deichkind wrote:
yeah yeah wrong combo, and since its clear youve made up your mind i wont bother. youre right she awesome from the start doesnt need levels or anything and the mighty farm she can accumalte in the late game will surely turn the tide of the battle to your favour.
kinda funny how you're accusing of him being hellbent on something while you're going "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU YOU'RE WRONG"
TL are running a 4th Naga -right now- and it's working pretty damn well for them
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On July 08 2013 08:16 hooahah wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 08:14 deichkind wrote:
yeah yeah wrong combo, and since its clear youve made up your mind i wont bother. youre right she awesome from the start doesnt need levels or anything and the mighty farm she can accumalte in the late game will surely turn the tide of the battle to your favour.
kinda funny how you're accusing of him being hellbent on something while you're going "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU YOU'RE WRONG" TL are running a 4th Naga -right now- and it's working pretty damn well for them
It worked because they ran Mirana and Nyx as 2 and 3. Which is exactly the point...your support only transitions to carry if your cores are giving up farm or don't care about late farm.
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Guys, i have a much more important question:
If I want to go shrapnel spamming Sniper, what is the most effective build up?
First bit item is clearly orchids, but I'm not sure what to get before that.
I would prefer to get treads anyway, so I'm looking at soul ring, medaillon, ring of basilius and the like. I can tell without trying that a basi alone will not give close to enough mana, so aquila will not be happening. Need that sage mask to make one of the other mana items.
Any better ideas?
Ps: I still want to transition into a dps lategame build, hence an orchid instead of a bloodstone/sheepstick
PPs: "Don't play sniper" is not advice, neither is "go dagon/blink/euls blinking and slamming sniper"
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i think the orchid is right. You need an early aquila still for some decent LHing damage in lane, and you can't really go wrong with treads on sniper
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On July 08 2013 08:21 Mataza wrote:
Guys, i have a much more important question:
If I want to go shrapnel spamming Sniper, what is the most effective build up?
First bit item is clearly orchids, but I'm not sure what to get before that.
I would prefer to get treads anyway, so I'm looking at soul ring, medaillon, ring of basilius and the like. I can tell without trying that a basi alone will not give close to enough mana, so aquila will not be happening. Need that sage mask to make one of the other mana items.
Any better ideas?
Ps: I still want to transition into a dps lategame build, hence an orchid instead of a bloodstone/sheepstick
PPs: "Don't play sniper" is not advice, neither is "go dagon/blink/euls blinking and slamming sniper"
I really really don't like orchid on sniper even if spamming shrapnel.
i'd honestly get aquila/treads/bottle/forcestaff/manta in some order based on what is reasonable and what is needed at the time. treads switching with aquila is enough to the t1 mid down really really fast, and all the t1's subsequently.
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EPT
