EPTIt's very rarely when you'd like to max it, if even.
General Discussion - Page 2810
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
It's very rarely when you'd like to max it, if even. | ||
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
On May 12 2013 02:38 aintz wrote: if they buff cm movespeed i would play her. shes just painfully slow atm. Yea i agree, that 280 MS is painful to play with. I wish both her and rhasta were buffed slightly in movespeed. And a small buff in strength gain would be lovely too. But i'm probably biased here, but they're both heroes i love playing, would love to see them buffed, obviously. Also slightly related: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GcSbZ.jpg) | ||
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cilinder007
Slovenia7251 Posts
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
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vndestiny
Singapore3459 Posts
They lack mobility and reliable AOE though, but that can be compensate with the 2 rest hero slot. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On May 12 2013 02:46 hunts wrote: Before I go to work, I just had the most fun idea. Team global 5 man! Wisp, spectre, naix, furion, and some other hero, probably a support with a stun. have super offensive wards, naix gets inside furion, wisp tethers the other support, both wisp and furion port in on someone, and spectre ultis in! and your lanes are so bad you lose at 15min. :p | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
 On May 12 2013 02:51 vndestiny wrote: I wonder why Treant isnt paired with Warlock more though. Their laning stage is not that bad, not very much offensive power but awesome defensive wise. The anti-bkb ultimate of both in the same fight is what amazing though, completely devastating, They also provide very good slow which works very well which niche picks like spec or ursa ( you should always pick spec along with warlock anyway haha). They lack mobility and reliable AOE though, but that can be compensate with the 2 rest hero slot. too cooldown reliant while depending on the other team to be out of position while not being a RP/black hole kind of spell, good teams will try to avoid these kinds of fights | ||
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Yoshi-
Germany10227 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
CM's poor base stats (including her low MS) and lack of a hard disable make her somewhat awkward after that, though, so you need to get a strong laning advantage with her, or have a teamcomp with a solid post-laning gameplan. In the case of the teamcomp in question this is fine because of how strong the combo is after laning and how they need a strong laning support to buffer their otherwise weak trilane (Warlock+Spec is not that strong in lane, so the 3rd hero has to be a strong laner to make that trilane stable). | ||
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babishh
Canada965 Posts
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vndestiny
Singapore3459 Posts
On May 12 2013 02:52 Erasme wrote: and your lanes are so bad you lose at 15min. :p A more reasonable line up would be furion jungle, wisp spec + cc safe lane, zues solo mid, abandon the long lane. That way when ever a hero get gank, the other 4 can be there instantly as well. Still can lose the mid game very badly though. On May 12 2013 02:56 TheYango wrote: CM's a powerful hero during the early stages with two good nukes, strong laning ability as well as strong roaming ganks (she's one of the few supports in the game that has a way to reliably intiate a gank from farther than smoke break range). CM's poor base stats (including her low MS) and lack of a hard disable make her somewhat awkward after that, though, so you need to get a strong laning advantage with her, or have a teamcomp with a solid post-laning gameplan. In the case of the teamcomp in question this is fine because of how strong the combo is after laning and how they need a strong laning support to buffer their otherwise weak trilane (Warlock+Spec is not that strong in lane, so the 3rd hero has to be a strong laner to make that trilane stable). See Yango agree with me, we should totally persuade Liquid to try this sometimes | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On May 12 2013 02:41 Andr3 wrote: I think her aura needs a change as well, like at most you put one point into it early on. It's very rarely when you'd like to max it, if even. I don't know if that's the right approach to changing the hero because this is partially a product of the way the game is played right now. Maxed aura is strong in a game where there's an incredibly long laning phase and the aura buffers the power of your lanes, but the way the game plays right now, there's too much demand for early fighting ability (which requires you to max your nukes) and lanes break up rather quickly compared to the way things used to be. The skill isn't bad, it's just not desirable the way the game plays right NOW--but that doesn't mean it needs a rework because the way we play the game is likely to change with another major patch. Granted, I don't think Icefrog WANTS the game to go back to the slow pace where aura max was common, but things also don't always turn out the way Icefrog wants. On May 12 2013 02:59 vndestiny wrote: See Yango agree with me, we should totally persuade Liquid to try this sometimes I didn't say the teamcomp was good, just that CM is an acceptable pick for what you're using her for (making an abusably weak trilane not so weak). And even then, she might not even be the best pick for that, given that your trilane is still woefully lacking in defensive ability with CM. | ||
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vndestiny
Singapore3459 Posts
On May 12 2013 03:01 TheYango wrote: I don't know if that's the right approach to changing the hero because this is partially a product of the way the game is played right now. Maxed aura is strong in a game where there's an incredibly long laning phase and the aura buffers the power of your lanes, but the way the game plays right now, there's too much demand for early fighting ability (which requires you to max your nukes) and lanes break up rather quickly compared to the way things used to be. The skill isn't bad, it's just not desirable the way the game plays right NOW--but that doesn't mean it needs a rework because the way we play the game is likely to change with another major patch. What if the team play very passively, and rely on their defensive power line up to get everyone up to lvl 6 before the first big push. Forfeit one or two towers in the process in the meantime is still quite ok, since the counter initiation of the lineup is so strong that the opponent cant really fight you head on in the mid game. + Show Spoiler + Rubick & Bat are must ban though On May 12 2013 03:01 TheYango wrote: I didn't say the teamcomp was good, just that CM is an acceptable pick for what you're using her for (making an abusably weak trilane not so weak). And even then, she might not even be the best pick for that, given that your trilane is still woefully lacking in defensive ability with CM. But they cant kill you in the trilane though, since the Living armor make any hero very hard to initiate on while laning. Well what do I know, I just theorycraft stuff, since I'm bored and like CM, Treant & Spectre a lot so  | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
On May 12 2013 02:54 Yoshi- wrote: A turnrate buff would do pretty much nothing a major turn rate buff such as the one that batrider got would be a significant change for cm. it would not make her strong by itself, but small things matter. its not like a small cast animation buff or a small movespeed buff would be by themselves make her great | ||
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wairai
Malaysia1000 Posts
for team who always have arcane user, aura can be negligible. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
This is exacerbated by the fact that you have no small stuns. CM is the only hero in your lineup that has a hard "small" disable (stuff with low CDs that you expect to come off CD a 2nd or 3rd time and can clean up after the fight), which means once your wombo combo is planted, if it didn't one-shot everyone, you have no way to prevent the enemy from disengaging. Which means they find a place to take the fight where they take an acceptable loss (losing 1-2 people), and then counter-fight/push when your big ult(s) are on CD. This is even easier lategame when they can bait this using buybacks. In pubs you'll often see teams more or less wipe themselves on the combo and let you straight rax off a 5-0 wipe. It's why many newer players love these AoE combo teams (I remember playing Warlock+SK all day every day when I first played DotA years ago). But a high level team isn't going to walk into the 5-0 teamwipe. They'll lose a man or two, and then abuse your timing weakness with your ults down. | ||
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On May 12 2013 03:15 Unleashing wrote: Something i wonder is, will the frog buff ES next patch? He doesn't need buffs, he needs bugfixes. So long as Icefrog cares about DotA 1 balance as well, he can't overbuff ES because the hero is basically must-ban/pick in DotA 1, and only sucks in DotA 2 because of engine differences. | ||
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Yoshi-
Germany10227 Posts
On May 12 2013 03:12 rabidch wrote: a major turn rate buff such as the one that batrider got would be a significant change for cm. it would not make her strong by itself, but small things matter. its not like a small cast animation buff or a small movespeed buff would be by themselves make her great No it wouldn't as every turnrate above 0.5 is the same A hero with a turnrate of 100 turns as fast as a hero with turnrate of 0.5. CM got 0.5 and that is pretty much enough. | ||
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
On May 12 2013 03:18 TheYango wrote: He doesn't need buffs, he needs bugfixes. So long as Icefrog cares about DotA 1 balance as well, he can't overbuff ES because the hero is basically must-ban/pick in DotA 1, and only sucks in DotA 2 because of engine differences. Oh i know that, but i was wondering IF he would do it, like bat rider was buffed regardless of not really needing it in dota1. | ||
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