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On December 12 2012 03:08 Gentso wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 02:56 Sn0_Man wrote:On December 12 2012 02:46 Gentso wrote:On December 12 2012 01:51 Unleashing wrote:On December 12 2012 01:31 Gentso wrote:
Drow would be a major pain in the ass even for coordinated pros. It's crazy that she's been untouched for this long seeing as she's played the most by far AND she has a 60% win rate. She can get shut down hard early game and still bounce back tremendously because of her new skill design. She doesn't need many items to to have a global pushing presence, and she doesn't need much else besides lifesteal in the midgame to become a dominating presence. If there's an enigma on her team that's a whole other level of stupid.
I know people say stop playing AP, but that's really not a solution. When I'm playing casually I'd just to play what I want to help my team. I'm not really playing to win that much, I just want to have fun. I'll just point out, DotA is balanced for CM, and since drow and CM and so on aren't in CM currently, they're not an issue for the way DotA is balanced. I mean i'm sure people would be whining about Zet if he was in as well. Don't be ridiculous, it's balanced for all game types. All of them affect hidden MMR. CM not including certain heroes is for the sake of professional play, where money and reputation is on the line. MMR has absolutely nothing to do with game balance... Dota is balanced around professional-level CM. The fact that most people are neither professionals nor CM-players is a large part of why Morphling (who had like a 45% winrate pre-TI2) got mega-nerfed after TI2. Icefrog would much rather produce a game that, played properly with picks and bans and coordinated teams of 5, is excellently balanced and strategically diverse. Secondary to that, Icefrog would love for pubs to also be well balanced, have heroes all at 50% winrate, etc. However, those pub expectations directly clash with strategic diversity in a coordinated, 5v5 CM setting, and the latter option wins out every time. CM not including certain heroes is indeed because Icefrog is uncertain how they will affect the balance of CM after he "remade" them in a substantial manner. Balacing around professional CM is a large part of balance, but saying that the other modes aren't at least a good part of the balance equation is ignorant. It's like SC2. Blizzard focuses on balancing the pro game, but they also try to get the game balanced for all levels of play. The void ray was nerfed for example because it was too strong in the lower leagues. It's a similar thing for AP/RD. If something is dominating outside of CM, it will be balanced... end of story.
You seem to be missing the point here entirely, IceFrog balances DotA for captain's mode and competitive usage, not for pubs. It's not being ignorant, it's how the game has been treaten for years.
And no, even if something dominates outside of CM it wont be nerfed, lmfao, thinking so about DotA kind of makes you look silly, i can't remember which, but there was a hero that had a 59% win-rate for a looooooong time in DotA1, i believe it was phoenix or treant protector. It was like that for as i said, a loooooong time. But because it didn't affect competitive usage, it didn't matter.
IceFrog would never make a hero that is instant win in pubs and balanced for competitive play, obviously(Not that i think making such a hero is possible) but just because a hero has a 60% winrate doesn't mean it'll be nerfed.
Just like a hero having 40% winrate doesn't mean it'll be buffed.
On December 12 2012 03:07 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 03:04 Unleashing wrote:On December 12 2012 02:46 Gentso wrote:On December 12 2012 01:51 Unleashing wrote:On December 12 2012 01:31 Gentso wrote:
Drow would be a major pain in the ass even for coordinated pros. It's crazy that she's been untouched for this long seeing as she's played the most by far AND she has a 60% win rate. She can get shut down hard early game and still bounce back tremendously because of her new skill design. She doesn't need many items to to have a global pushing presence, and she doesn't need much else besides lifesteal in the midgame to become a dominating presence. If there's an enigma on her team that's a whole other level of stupid.
I know people say stop playing AP, but that's really not a solution. When I'm playing casually I'd just to play what I want to help my team. I'm not really playing to win that much, I just want to have fun. I'll just point out, DotA is balanced for CM, and since drow and CM and so on aren't in CM currently, they're not an issue for the way DotA is balanced. I mean i'm sure people would be whining about Zet if he was in as well. Don't be ridiculous, it's balanced for all game types. All of them affect hidden MMR. CM not including certain heroes is for the sake of professional play, where money and reputation is on the line. I'm not being ridiculous, winrate in pubs has never(Unless i'm forgetting a very special case) affected how a hero was treated. DotA is balanced for CM, that's how it is. I mean if it did then why have heroes like brood been hit with the nerf bat quite a few times regardless of never really having a high winrate in pubs? Why was ursa left untouched for years despite being by many labeled as #1 pub destroyer? And so on. Actually, they nerfed ursa very recently strictly due to his pub-crushing power. They made his overpower use his cast time, previously it was instant (exactly the same as the Leshrac Edict change). But in general, I agree with you. EDIT: whoops double post.
And meanwhile they buffed his earthshock cast time, to me that's a buff to the hero overall.
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On December 12 2012 03:06 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 02:57 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
The true abuse of drow aura is when you have five ranged heroes. Preferably ones who build stat items to increase their base damage. Rofl. a) stat items on other heroes don't help them with drow aura. It WOULD help them with things like vengeful spirit aura. b) ranged summons like visage familiars, enigma eidolons, etc get just as much benefit as heroes, only there are up to 6 eidolons who all benefit from it. And Familiars attack much faster than heroes, so they use it better. etc. The true abuse of drow aura is legitimately just an intelligent visage.
I was under the impression that it was command aura (or more technically trueshot since it only affects ranged), but apparently I am wrong.
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On December 12 2012 03:10 Koshi wrote:
Is the Defence 3 considered to be the biggest tournament going on right now? I want to buy in on 1 of the tournaments to watch the vods ( I won't watch live) and from what I can tell The Defence is the biggest and longest tournament?
Comments? Which tournament should I watch vods from? I really like Tobi as caster.
The defence 3 is certainly the most expensive tournamet going on right now...
Tobi isn't casting the current games (hes casting some other stuff right now, I'm not too clear on the details) but he will be casting the future ones when he gets back. If you really like Tobi that much, just watch the vods of his livestream (and I think they make it to Youtube as well?). Unless you desperately want an in-game tournament to watch. In which case you could watch about 4 other ones for the price of The Defence 3.
Starladder 4 is the closest competitor for size and length, but I don't think tobi is casting much of that (maybe the lan finals later?) dunno.
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On December 12 2012 03:11 trinxified wrote:
Drow rapes in laning stages with VS with her as well.
Aura stacking, so by Level 6, 1 stun, then it's 3 shot GG.
Eh...no. If we're talking about a pub dual melee carry lane, then yes, but most decent lanes shit on VS+Drow, you have 1 low range low HP hero, and 1 low HP low armor hero. Good luck getting to level 6.
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On December 12 2012 03:13 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 03:08 Gentso wrote:On December 12 2012 02:56 Sn0_Man wrote:On December 12 2012 02:46 Gentso wrote:On December 12 2012 01:51 Unleashing wrote:On December 12 2012 01:31 Gentso wrote:
Drow would be a major pain in the ass even for coordinated pros. It's crazy that she's been untouched for this long seeing as she's played the most by far AND she has a 60% win rate. She can get shut down hard early game and still bounce back tremendously because of her new skill design. She doesn't need many items to to have a global pushing presence, and she doesn't need much else besides lifesteal in the midgame to become a dominating presence. If there's an enigma on her team that's a whole other level of stupid.
I know people say stop playing AP, but that's really not a solution. When I'm playing casually I'd just to play what I want to help my team. I'm not really playing to win that much, I just want to have fun. I'll just point out, DotA is balanced for CM, and since drow and CM and so on aren't in CM currently, they're not an issue for the way DotA is balanced. I mean i'm sure people would be whining about Zet if he was in as well. Don't be ridiculous, it's balanced for all game types. All of them affect hidden MMR. CM not including certain heroes is for the sake of professional play, where money and reputation is on the line. MMR has absolutely nothing to do with game balance... Dota is balanced around professional-level CM. The fact that most people are neither professionals nor CM-players is a large part of why Morphling (who had like a 45% winrate pre-TI2) got mega-nerfed after TI2. Icefrog would much rather produce a game that, played properly with picks and bans and coordinated teams of 5, is excellently balanced and strategically diverse. Secondary to that, Icefrog would love for pubs to also be well balanced, have heroes all at 50% winrate, etc. However, those pub expectations directly clash with strategic diversity in a coordinated, 5v5 CM setting, and the latter option wins out every time. CM not including certain heroes is indeed because Icefrog is uncertain how they will affect the balance of CM after he "remade" them in a substantial manner. Balacing around professional CM is a large part of balance, but saying that the other modes aren't at least a good part of the balance equation is ignorant. It's like SC2. Blizzard focuses on balancing the pro game, but they also try to get the game balanced for all levels of play. The void ray was nerfed for example because it was too strong in the lower leagues. It's a similar thing for AP/RD. If something is dominating outside of CM, it will be balanced... end of story. You seem to be missing the point here entirely, IceFrog balances DotA for captain's mode and competitive usage, not for pubs. It's not being ignorant, it's how the game has been treaten for years. And no, even if something dominates outside of CM it wont be nerfed, lmfao, thinking so about DotA kind of makes you look silly, i can't remember which, but there was a hero that had a 59% win-rate for a looooooong time in DotA1, i believe it was phoenix or treant protector. It was like that for as i said, a loooooong time. But because it didn't affect competitive usage, it didn't matter. IceFrog would never make a hero that is instant win in pubs and balanced for competitive play, obviously(Not that i think making such a hero is possible) but just because a hero has a 60% winrate doesn't mean it'll be nerfed. Just like a hero having 40% winrate doesn't mean it'll be buffed.
There have always been patches that mainly affected pub play, so don't see why you would say that IF only balanced competitive for years.
And your comparison to treant and phoenix, is just beyond stupid. This was during 6.72, after 6.72 there hasn't been any patch for a looooooong time and both of the heroes where immediately nerfed, when 6.73 came. This is why those heroes where unchanged for a loooooong time and not because Icefrog doesn't care about pubs.
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And no, even if something dominates outside of CM it wont be nerfed, lmfao, thinking so about DotA kind of makes you look silly, i can't remember which, but there was a hero that had a 59% win-rate for a looooooong time in DotA1, i believe it was phoenix or treant protector
This isn't DOTA1 anymore. There's more than just Icefrog now, there's Valve. And there's definitely way more people playing on a daily basis, it's become a mainstream game. You simply cannot 100% balance around CM for the game to succeed outside of the pro scene. Obviously, pro balance is huge, but Dota2 exists for casuals as well.
It's not like I'm saying balance outside of CM is a big priority. You simply cannot have outliers exist that will ruin the game for casual players.
And apparently Ursa was nerfed for this very reason (although I haven't read that to be the case anywhere..would like a source), you guys are trying to blow it off like it's completely outside the realm of possibility.
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On December 12 2012 03:16 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 03:10 Koshi wrote:
Is the Defence 3 considered to be the biggest tournament going on right now? I want to buy in on 1 of the tournaments to watch the vods ( I won't watch live) and from what I can tell The Defence is the biggest and longest tournament?
Comments? Which tournament should I watch vods from? I really like Tobi as caster. The defence 3 is certainly the most expensive tournamet going on right now... Tobi isn't casting the current games (hes casting some other stuff right now, I'm not too clear on the details) but he will be casting the future ones when he gets back. If you really like Tobi that much, just watch the vods of his livestream (and I think they make it to Youtube as well?). Unless you desperately want an in-game tournament to watch. In which case you could watch about 4 other ones for the price of The Defence 3. Starladder 4 is the closest competitor for size and length, but I don't think tobi is casting much of that (maybe the lan finals later?) dunno.
Lan final is at the same time as The Asia and tobi will cast the latter.
I wouldn't really buy anything ticket atm, starladder has no real proper english caster and for the defense everything but the playoff will be uninteresting, and for that the ticket is to expensive imo
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Treant still had an insane pub winrate post 6.73 though, can't speak for phoenix since i didn't keep up with that.
Treant was at 58% or so in DotA2 during 6.73, never really heard people whine and bitch and moan about him.
Edit: And yup, behold, treant still wasn't touched in 6.74 despite keeping his 'pub crushing' status. Even if people didn't whine about him.
On December 12 2012 03:23 Gentso wrote:Show nested quote +And no, even if something dominates outside of CM it wont be nerfed, lmfao, thinking so about DotA kind of makes you look silly, i can't remember which, but there was a hero that had a 59% win-rate for a looooooong time in DotA1, i believe it was phoenix or treant protector This isn't DOTA1 anymore. There's more than just Icefrog now, there's Valve. And there's definitely way more people playing on a daily basis, it's become a mainstream game. You simply cannot 100% balance around CM for the game to succeed outside of the pro scene. Obviously, pro balance is huge, but Dota2 exists for casuals as well. It's not like I'm saying balance outside of CM is a big priority. You simply cannot have outliers exist that will ruin the game for casual players. And apparently Ursa was nerfed for this very reason (although I haven't read that to be the case anywhere..would like a source), you guys are trying to blow it off like it's completely outside the realm of possibility.
But ursa WASN'T nerfed, he had earthshock BUFFED.
And there are still way more DotA1 players, just an FYI.
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On December 12 2012 03:23 Gentso wrote:Show nested quote +And no, even if something dominates outside of CM it wont be nerfed, lmfao, thinking so about DotA kind of makes you look silly, i can't remember which, but there was a hero that had a 59% win-rate for a looooooong time in DotA1, i believe it was phoenix or treant protector This isn't DOTA1 anymore. There's more than just Icefrog now, there's Valve. And there's definitely way more people playing on a daily basis, it's become a mainstream game. You simply cannot 100% balance around CM for the game to succeed outside of the pro scene. Obviously, pro balance is huge, but Dota2 exists for casuals as well. It's not like I'm saying balance outside of CM is a big priority. You simply cannot have outliers exist that will ruin the game for casual players. And apparently Ursa was nerfed for this very reason (although I haven't read that to be the case anywhere..would like a source), you guys are trying to blow it off like it's completely outside the realm of possibility.
That's not true, there are still way more dota1 player than dota2 (hey china)
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Treant was the least spectacular pub stomper in history of dota. Passive + armor and regen won most lanes, but most people didn't realize that it was that
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On December 12 2012 03:27 Qbek wrote:
Treant was the least spectacular pub stomper in history of dota. Passive + armor and regen won most lanes, but most people didn't realize that it was that
Exactly, people whine about drow because they can DIRECTLY see her affect the game. Which is why i find the complaining silly.
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Also ursa was changed around for like 5 times, he had the cast time removed , added, removed, added, removed and now it's halved
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On December 12 2012 03:25 Unleashing wrote:
Treant still had an insane pub winrate post 6.73 though, can't speak for phoenix since i didn't keep up with that.
Treant was at 58% or so in DotA2 during 6.73, never really heard people whine and bitch and moan about him.
You really make no sense.
Treant was a hero that was literally never picked in 6.73, so he was not competitively valid. But according to your imaginary sources, he still had a high win rate.
And what happened in 6.75? He was nerfed quite heavily.
So a hero that is only good in pubs and never played in competitive matches got nerfed.
Sounds like Icefrog does balance around pubs for me.
On December 12 2012 03:26 Jetaap wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 03:23 Gentso wrote:And no, even if something dominates outside of CM it wont be nerfed, lmfao, thinking so about DotA kind of makes you look silly, i can't remember which, but there was a hero that had a 59% win-rate for a looooooong time in DotA1, i believe it was phoenix or treant protector This isn't DOTA1 anymore. There's more than just Icefrog now, there's Valve. And there's definitely way more people playing on a daily basis, it's become a mainstream game. You simply cannot 100% balance around CM for the game to succeed outside of the pro scene. Obviously, pro balance is huge, but Dota2 exists for casuals as well. It's not like I'm saying balance outside of CM is a big priority. You simply cannot have outliers exist that will ruin the game for casual players. And apparently Ursa was nerfed for this very reason (although I haven't read that to be the case anywhere..would like a source), you guys are trying to blow it off like it's completely outside the realm of possibility. That's not true, there are still way more dota1 player than dota2 (hey china)
Even without china i wouldn't be surprised if the masses of pinoys and brazils playing dota1 easily outnumbers dota2. Garena alone still has 120k people online atm
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So I just had 2 games with about 5-6 of the same people in them. The first was classified Very High while the second had a dc at 15 min with lots of other people leaving and it was put down as Normal. So unless you're telling me those 3-4 people that changed between games magically plummeted the MMR to normal I'm pretty sure I was right about the replay classifications being not directly related to MMR.
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On December 12 2012 03:29 Yoshi- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 03:25 Unleashing wrote:
Treant still had an insane pub winrate post 6.73 though, can't speak for phoenix since i didn't keep up with that.
Treant was at 58% or so in DotA2 during 6.73, never really heard people whine and bitch and moan about him. You really make no sense. Treant was a hero that was literally never picked in 6.73, so he was not competitively valid. But according to your imaginary sources, he still had a high win rate. And what happened in 6.75? He was nerfed quite heavily. So a hero that is only good in pubs and never played in competitive matches got nerfed. Sounds like Icefrog does balance around pubs for me.
If a hero is owning pubs but has no occurrence in pro games obviously it will get changed, notice that most of those changes are reworks not just number adjustments, and reworks are meant to make a hero competitively viable, always.
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Treant was reworked though, not really the same as nerfing IMHO. :/
Having BAT changed, stats relocated, an entire skill reworked and so on is quite different from simply reducing values over the board. I mean even his ulti was changed, not really nerfed, longer duration and way lower cooldown at the loss of damage.
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On December 12 2012 03:33 Unleashing wrote:
Treant was reworked though, not really the same as nerfing IMHO. :/
Having BAT changed, stats relocated, an entire skill reworked and so on is quite different from simply reducing values over the board. I mean even his ulti was changed, not really nerfed, longer duration and way lower cooldown at the loss of damage.
okay he got reworked in 6.75
but still he got nerfed in both 6.72 and 6.73, without ever being remotely close to competitively viable. Icefrog does a lot of balance around pubs
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On December 12 2012 03:35 Yoshi- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 03:33 Unleashing wrote:
Treant was reworked though, not really the same as nerfing IMHO. :/
Having BAT changed, stats relocated, an entire skill reworked and so on is quite different from simply reducing values over the board. I mean even his ulti was changed, not really nerfed, longer duration and way lower cooldown at the loss of damage. okay he got reworked in 6.75 but still he got nerfed in both 6.72 and 6.73, without ever being remotely close to competitively viable. Icefrog does a lot of balance around pubs
Treant was added to CM in 6.73, so ofc it was balanced around pubs before lol
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But treant wasn't IN captain's mode in 6.72, he was tweaked untill IceFrog believed he was suitable for CM, then added him to CM in 6.73 and he was left unchanged in 6.74 since he really had made zero impact on the scene(He still won a ton of pubs, sadly dotabuff didn't keep track of patches back then, but if you go check treant's win-rate over all the games recorded, it's still near 53% despite his current winrate being near 41%.), then reworked again in 6.75.
(And when a hero isn't in CM it's obvious that the only thing left to judge from is pubs)
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On December 12 2012 03:19 ChrisXIV wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 03:11 trinxified wrote:
Drow rapes in laning stages with VS with her as well.
Aura stacking, so by Level 6, 1 stun, then it's 3 shot GG. Eh...no. If we're talking about a pub dual melee carry lane, then yes, but most decent lanes shit on VS+Drow, you have 1 low range low HP hero, and 1 low HP low armor hero. Good luck getting to level 6.
Are you for real?
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EPT
