EPTGeneral Discussion - Page 1569
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Slomo
Germany7198 Posts
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Stancel
Singapore15360 Posts
as a DotA player who used to like Ogre I'm very sure #%^*ing multis... or lack of them. | ||
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34505 Posts
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StoRm_res
Switzerland891 Posts
On November 30 2012 23:02 Unleashing wrote: Why? Elaborate. PRD eliminates lucky and unlucky streaks while having the same overall amount of crits/bashes. I see nothing that makes true random superior. Because it is more fair. For example if pa hits you and can almost be certain that coup de grace procs is a nightmare. With true random whenever pa hits you get a 15% chance that he lands a coup de grace, thats the way it should be. Problem is also that the first hit will almost never proc, while the 6th hit will be a very likely proc, which can be annoying. But yeah, it does take some random out of the game and it will be less frustrating sometimes. (I once died to ancients because my SK didnt crit a single time, that was embarassing :D) | ||
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Yoshi-
Germany10227 Posts
On November 30 2012 23:23 StoRm_res wrote: Problem is also that the first hit will almost never proc,) So the first hit after leveling the spell, will never proc now. Huge change. | ||
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Qbek
Poland12923 Posts
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On November 30 2012 23:04 Slomo wrote: Erasme was in Wodota Top10? Dis nub. wat fucj you | ||
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Yoshi-
Germany10227 Posts
http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7993 Under the section "Pseudo Random Probability Constants", you can find the starting chance in the tables. | ||
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
On November 30 2012 23:23 StoRm_res wrote: Because it is more fair. For example if pa hits you and can almost be certain that coup de grace procs is a nightmare. With true random whenever pa hits you get a 15% chance that he lands a coup de grace, thats the way it should be. Problem is also that the first hit will almost never proc, while the 6th hit will be a very likely proc, which can be annoying. But yeah, it does take some random out of the game and it will be less frustrating sometimes. (I once died to ancients because my SK didnt crit a single time, that was embarassing :D) How is it more fair? You talk about that it sucks not critting with heroes, PRD removes that, it REMOVES unlucky streaks, you will still crit 15% of the time. And the first hit can proc, it's the first hit after a proc that has a low chance of critting. You can even go into the jungle and attack creeps, you haven't critted for a while? Go fight, good chance of you critting first hit. It removes bullshit like PA critting 3 times in a row on neutrals and then critting zero times during a teamfight. And no it doesn't take some of the random out of the game, PRD is just as legit as 'true random' as far as being random goes. It is both more balanced and will make a hero like PA not be cockblocked during teamfights while also removing bullshit like her facing an enemy carry and critting 3-4 times in a row winning them the battle. That's the beauty of PRD, it removes UNLUCKY STREAKS just as it removes lucky streaks, with 15% crit chance you will maybe start with 5% crit chance, and after 2 attacks it's at 15%, after another 2 it's at 25% and so on, the odds of you first hit critting is still ther. Nothing generated by a computer is truly random, FYI. I mean even pro players are happy about PRD. It's more fair for the person using a chance based ability, they will no longer not have it trigger at all. It's more fair for the person it's being used against, they will no longer have it trigger constantly against them. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On November 30 2012 23:30 Unleashing wrote: How is it more fair? You talk about that it sucks not critting with heroes, PRD removes that, it REMOVES unlucky streaks, you will still crit 15% of the time. And the first hit can proc, it's the first hit after a proc that has a low chance of critting. You can even go into the jungle and attack creeps, you haven't critted for a while? Go fight, good chance of you critting first hit. It removes bullshit like PA critting 3 times in a row on neutrals and then critting zero times during a teamfight. And no it doesn't take some of the random out of the game, PRD is just as legit as 'true random' as far as being random goes. It is both more balanced and will make a hero like PA not be cockblocked during teamfights while also removing bullshit like her facing an enemy carry and critting 3-4 times in a row winning them the battle. That's the beauty of PRD, it removes UNLUCKY STREAKS just as it removes lucky streaks, with 15% crit chance you will maybe start with 5% crit chance, and after 2 attacks it's at 15%, after another 2 it's at 25% and so on, the odds of you first hit critting is still ther. Nothing generated by a computer is truly random, FYI. I mean even pro players are happy about PRD. It's more fair for the person using a chance based ability, they will no longer not have it trigger at all. It's more fair for the person it's being used against, they will no longer have it trigger constantly against them. Because random chance can't be abused. PRD makes heroes like syllabear retarded in lane. Having (almost) guaranteed chances to proc abilities is dumb. If you don't want lucky/unlucky streaks then don't make abilities that use random chance. PRD is just a horrible band aid to a problem that nobody wants to address in video games. There is some luck involved, just gotta deal with it. | ||
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34505 Posts
On December 01 2012 00:20 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: Because random chance can't be abused. PRD makes heroes like syllabear retarded in lane. Having (almost) guaranteed chances to proc abilities is dumb. If you don't want lucky/unlucky streaks then don't make abilities that use random chance. PRD is just a horrible band aid to a problem that nobody wants to address in video games. There is some luck involved, just gotta deal with it. It was the way it all worked in Dota 1. They may consider adding exceptions to PRD (Syllabear is definitely one that comes to mind, perhaps the random chance should not build up when hitting creeps?) but overall most heroes should have it applied to them. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On November 30 2012 21:45 pallad wrote: GAMEPLAY - Pseudo Random chances are now enabled for these abilities: Coup de Grace, Slardar's Bash, Time Lock, Drunken Brawler's Crit, Headshot, Blade Dance, Chaos Knight's Crit, Lycan's Crit and Skeleton King's Crit. Bear root doesn't use PRD, only these abilities. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On December 01 2012 00:24 Firebolt145 wrote: It was the way it all worked in Dota 1. They may consider adding exceptions to PRD (Syllabear is definitely one that comes to mind, perhaps the random chance should not build up when hitting creeps?) but overall most heroes should have it applied to them. If they wanted to do that then they should just make the entangle hero only. PRD was only in dota 1 because that is how the wc3 engine worked. It wasn't a conscience choice and I don't people even knew about it until many years into warcraft 3. If they got rid of it I would hold a parade, but most people seem to be disillusioned into thinking it makes the game more competitive. On December 01 2012 00:30 Sn0_Man wrote: Bear root doesn't use PRD, only these abilities. Bear root is merely the best example because it is easy to see how it is abused. The same principles can be applied to anything like say Bash which is on the list. | ||
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
It might be unabuseable. We do not know. I would love to see how it works exactly. | ||
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Yoshi-
Germany10227 Posts
On December 01 2012 00:34 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: If they wanted to do that then they should just make the entangle hero only. PRD was only in dota 1 because that is how the wc3 engine worked. It wasn't a conscience choice and I don't people even knew about it until many years into warcraft 3. If they got rid of it I would hold a parade, but most people seem to be disillusioned into thinking it makes the game more competitive. That is not true at all the could easily do a "real" random in dota1 There are even several spells that don't use PRD. Axe counter helix fv backtrack | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
Also note that the value of first-hit bash on some heroes (Slardar, Faceless) is somewhat questionable since they have other stuns that they will use and stacking the bash on top doesn't help all that much. Also Blitzkrieg, note that cranium basher does NOT use PRD in dota 1 so obviously Icefrog can work around it if he wants to. | ||
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34505 Posts
On December 01 2012 00:34 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: If they wanted to do that then they should just make the entangle hero only. PRD was only in dota 1 because that is how the wc3 engine worked. It wasn't a conscience choice and I don't people even knew about it until many years into warcraft 3. If they got rid of it I would hold a parade, but most people seem to be disillusioned into thinking it makes the game more competitive. Bear root is merely the best example because it is easy to see how it is abused. The same principles can be applied to anything like say Bash which is on the list. That line suggests a 'I don't like it, I think it's bad and I'm right, everyone else is blind' situation, you know how people react to those. Many spells did not follow PRD in Dota 1 so it was definitely an option for Icefrog to remove. The fact that they've willingly implemented it into Dota 2 suggests they feel it's a feature that they think SHOULD be in the game. The advantages are clear. There are definitely some disadvantages, but those can be altered. I get the impression they're going to slowly implement it. I suspect they will slowly add PRD to more and more heroes that they think will benefit from it, and see how balanced it is. Heroes like Ogre Magi may never get PRD implemented, and they may alter how it works for specific cases eg Syllabear. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On November 30 2012 23:04 Slomo wrote: Erasme was in Wodota Top10? Dis nub. Wat? Link plz On November 30 2012 23:26 Qbek wrote: Not never lol. Pretty sure it starts on non 0 chance, I don't think it leaves 5-95 % range No, PRD often starts below 5% (5/10/15% chances) and always scales up to 100%, guaranteeing a proc every X swings (2 once you get above like ~80% chance). | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
Most of my disdain for PRD stems from other custom maps. If Icefrog can find a way to balance around it then I can accept that as a middleground. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 01 2012 00:37 Yoshi- wrote: There are even several spells that don't use PRD. Axe counter helix fv backtrack Those are triggered though, aren't they? Bashes and crits all use PRD because they use the crit and bash mechanics inherent to WC3, and I don't think Icefrog saw a need to have to trigger every bash/crit in the game just to not use PRD. | ||
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