EPTOn October 06 2012 13:42 pap0t wrote:
best way to learn is to fail...
best way to learn is to fail...
Only if you understand what you are doing wrong?
General Discussion - Page 1181
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rwrzr
United States1980 Posts
Only if you understand what you are doing wrong? | ||
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LazyFailKid
Canada750 Posts
Edit:Wait, wouldn't watching replays be insanely useful to someone who was focused on learning a more complex character and couldn't see what went wrong at things like positioning in game? now im wondering why people don't recommend the new players to rewatch their played games to see what went wrong if you don't know right from when it happened? | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On October 06 2012 13:51 LazyFailKid wrote: Can't really say I'm understanding what your saying here lol When I play invoker he seems fairly simple, that hard part is getting out the spells you want fast enough to be effective in fights lol. Same with visage but visage just demands a different set of skills than invoker (faster and more precise mouse actions, something im bad at and looking to improve lol). Doesn't seem to me like picking any hero will stop you from understanding whats happening ingame. Every teamfight i've understood to a basic degree what happens and why we won/lost. Edit: TheYango said pretty much what ive understood so far but it just seems to me like playing pretty much anyone Its possible understand why stuff happens ingame. Not like your going to be busy looking at what your w does as invoker in the middle of a teamfight. Ya, i agree to kupo. Imo is either you play heroes like lich/tide for 2weeks to get used to the game, have someone to guide you and read all the allied/oppo heroes' skills during/after the game and analyse replays (we trained some newbie friends to play clanwar back then in this way, the progress is boring as fck but he is at least equal or better than 90% of those long time pubbies after 2 weeks); or you can do the 'random hero' method, which is obviously more fun but expect to get owned for awhile, i only suggest this way of learning when you at least have one decent mate to guide you tbh (or obviously if you like it this way to be the 'casual' way of learning then go for it  ).The important thing is don't be afraid to ask questions and dying is the BEST way to learn, use some critical thinking etc and always remember that everyone was once a noob. And you thought you played invoker well after a few games? Wait till you see dendivoker :p and the hard part is not actually 'fast enough to dish out the spells', is about how well you understand the strength of your allied and oppo heroes and then the decision making on how effectively you should use your spells. | ||
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Rybka
United States836 Posts
On October 06 2012 14:53 LazyFailKid wrote: But it doesnt take 100 games to get to a point where you can say "Oh, my positioning was bad that game", It takes like 5. If someone starts playing dota and is new to dota style games then sure they will probably have to start with sven to not feed like crazy but if they have hit level 30 in LoL or whatever in HoN then they could start playing the more complicated heroes in dota right from the start since they have the basics down, The 3 M's can be quickly adapted from one game to another pretty dam fast. I disagree. You're out of position so many times over the course of the game and you don't even realize it, mostly because the enemy is too slow or hesitant to capitalize. This is especially true at lower skill brackets, but it's true at higher levels as well. | ||
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LazyFailKid
Canada750 Posts
And fyi you thought you played invoker well after a few games? Wait till you see dendivoker and the hard part is not actually 'fast enough to dish out the spells', is about how well you understand the strength of your allied and oppo heroes and then the decision making on how effectively you should use your spells. My everything is complete shit lol. I'm really bad (hence why i've asked like 20 questions in the simple questions;simple answers thread, thanks again to dead9 for the help ^_^). My problem (like many others) isn't the heroes but my ingame decisions, I'm out of position pretty much all the time like Rybka said and I probably don't even realize it. I get caught trying to catch up on farm when people are pushing our outer mid tower down, I don't carry a tp with me all the time and millions of other mistakes but you can see these things no matter who your playing. For example when you get ganked when you push too far you dont think "oh I should have used my blink/stealth skill" you think "shouldn't have been that far out. I dont even know what were arguing about anymore lol Edit: Since I worded that in a horrible way, what im trying to say is that it doesnt matter who your playing. If you get caught out of position and you learn from it then you would've learned from it anyway. If you dont learn from it then it wouldn't have mattered who you were playing. | ||
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
On October 06 2012 14:58 Rybka wrote: I disagree. You're out of position so many times over the course of the game and you don't even realize it, mostly because the enemy is too slow or hesitant to capitalize. This is especially true at lower skill brackets, but it's true at higher levels as well. Yeah, the game is full of openings, because it´s a game of limited information too. "The enemies fear you at least as much as you fear them" I´m at a level where smoke gangs are uncommon I believe(could also be that I never see the few that happen because they´re smoked), so I know that I´m usually too far away from my teammates to actually be safe. The hard part is Movement in relation to your team. In pubs you can´t reliably count on your teammates to help, no matter how good the situation for your team. Now being safe is also in relation to your hero and enemy heroes. Some heroes can go much farther out while still being safe, Storm Spirit comes to mind. On the other extreme Rhasta can´t even go warding alone when there´s an Antimage ingame. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On October 06 2012 15:08 LazyFailKid wrote: + Show Spoiler + And fyi you thought you played invoker well after a few games? Wait till you see dendivoker and the hard part is not actually 'fast enough to dish out the spells', is about how well you understand the strength of your allied and oppo heroes and then the decision making on how effectively you should use your spells. My everything is complete shit lol. I'm really bad (hence why i've asked like 20 questions in the simple questions;simple answers thread, thanks again to dead9 for the help ^_^). My problem (like many others) isn't the heroes but my ingame decisions, I'm out of position pretty much all the time like Rybka said and I probably don't even realize it. I get caught trying to catch up on farm when people are pushing our outer mid tower down, I don't carry a tp with me all the time and millions of other mistakes but you can see these things no matter who your playing. For example when you get ganked when you push too far you dont think "oh I should have used my blink/stealth skill" you think "shouldn't have been that far out. I dont even know what were arguing about anymore lol We are not arguing, we are discussing and giving you some suggestion from our own experience Simply put, like someone has mentioned above, every newbie lacks of game sense and map awareness, those are the two biggest factors that contribute to your in game decision making or get caught by out of position etc. And they can only be acquired from playing the game for some time (or for a long time in most people cases) and they are highly dependent on the heroes line up so they are different in every game. | ||
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LazyFailKid
Canada750 Posts
On October 06 2012 15:19 BurningSera wrote: We are not arguing, we are discussing and giving you some suggestion from our own experience Simply put, like someone has mentioned above, every newbie lacks of game sense and map awareness, those are the two biggest factors that contribute to your in game decision making or get caught by out of position etc. And they can only be acquired from playing the game for some time (or for a long time in most people cases) and they are highly dependent on the heroes line up so they are different in every game. Arguing and discussing is same thing npnp  Anyway, is there a mentor program on TL that ive missed (not counting the inhouses)? Anyway im off for the day, cya guys. Thanks for the help! | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
Lycan laning is a bit wonky. You can do it relatively standard with a ranged support but laning Lycan as a hard carry would lane feels odd to me. In theory, he's not a bad laner. You can give your support control of wolves to pull/stack, meaning while the support is pulling you won't be temporarily inconvenienced. Theoretically you can use the wolves to tank for you while the support is pulling, and with Feral Impulse plus wolf damage chained together as one attack, last hitting under your allied tower isn't too hard. Wolves are crazy expensive though. At 145 a pop with Lycan's starting mana pool of 195, you're going to be hurting for mana. Laning with Lycan also means different items... I suppose you can still start off with a quelling blade, and I wouldn't say no to having Feral Impulse level 1. 53-57 damage isn't bad, and with Feral you can start off with 63 base. That in itself is quite decent, and with a quelling blade you can punch for 83 damage. I suppose in a 1v1 melee vs melee laning situation this would be quite good; the damage from Feral Impulse makes up for Lycan's attack animation, which isn't that great--.55 swing. Of course, in a 1v1 situation you can use wolves to chase down the enemy solo (harder to do if the enemy is ranged, e.g., Windrunner, since your wolves will get gunned down by 5 auto attacks), though you have to be much more careful of taking creep damage (0 armor 200 HP means wolves will go down quickly). And generally in pubs, you're not going to be a solo safe lane Lycan against a solo hard lane enemy. While the Lycan nerf is relatively substantial it only affects his laning phase. Later on in fights nobody is going to focus the wolves, and the damage they deal hasn't been reduced. The mana cost is 20 higher than before, which can matter when you have a small mana pool... but it's not the end of the world. Pub Lycan picking has died down or should die down tremendously this patch given that most people don't want to lane Lycan. Doing Roshan with Lycan will require more careful micromanagement--yet the micro needed was pretty simple. While Rosh is easily still doable by solo Lycan, I think more than Vlad's will be required. Treads at the least, but with Medallion Roshan is still very simple to take down. It'll require two sets of wolves, lest you take too much damage from Roshan, but post-Aegis life is still very simple. You are still Lycan, and you still eat everything for pre-breakfast. Laning Lycan makes me much favor Basilius into Medallion with boots somewhere. You probably won't have as easy of a time as you would in the jungle, but Vlad's timing should still be relatively easy, given normal safe lane farm with one or two supports pulling. | ||
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Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
One interesting exercise is to watch (or watch with a friend) one of your own replays (with the fow on) and go over your own thought process at various points in the game and the reasoning behind it, outcomes, and etc. While you do this, you have more time to consider the "game state" and how to analyze it. | ||
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Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
On October 06 2012 15:34 flamewheel wrote: Note: I have not tried Lycan in lane yet post-patch. This is mostly theorycrafting. Lycan laning is a bit wonky. You can do it relatively standard with a ranged support but laning Lycan as a hard carry would lane feels odd to me. In theory, he's not a bad laner. You can give your support control of wolves to pull/stack, meaning while the support is pulling you won't be temporarily inconvenienced. Theoretically you can use the wolves to tank for you while the support is pulling, and with Feral Impulse plus wolf damage chained together as one attack, last hitting under your allied tower isn't too hard. Wolves are crazy expensive though. At 145 a pop with Lycan's starting mana pool of 195, you're going to be hurting for mana. Laning with Lycan also means different items... I suppose you can still start off with a quelling blade, and I wouldn't say no to having Feral Impulse level 1. 53-57 damage isn't bad, and with Feral you can start off with 63 base. That in itself is quite decent, and with a quelling blade you can punch for 83 damage. I suppose in a 1v1 melee vs melee laning situation this would be quite good; the damage from Feral Impulse makes up for Lycan's attack animation, which isn't that great--.55 swing. Of course, in a 1v1 situation you can use wolves to chase down the enemy solo (harder to do if the enemy is ranged, e.g., Windrunner, since your wolves will get gunned down by 5 auto attacks), though you have to be much more careful of taking creep damage (0 armor 200 HP means wolves will go down quickly). And generally in pubs, you're not going to be a solo safe lane Lycan against a solo hard lane enemy. While the Lycan nerf is relatively substantial it only affects his laning phase. Later on in fights nobody is going to focus the wolves, and the damage they deal hasn't been reduced. The mana cost is 20 higher than before, which can matter when you have a small mana pool... but it's not the end of the world. Pub Lycan picking has died down or should die down tremendously this patch given that most people don't want to lane Lycan. Doing Roshan with Lycan will require more careful micromanagement--yet the micro needed was pretty simple. While Rosh is easily still doable by solo Lycan, I think more than Vlad's will be required. Treads at the least, but with Medallion Roshan is still very simple to take down. It'll require two sets of wolves, lest you take too much damage from Roshan, but post-Aegis life is still very simple. You are still Lycan, and you still eat everything for pre-breakfast. Laning Lycan makes me much favor Basilius into Medallion with boots somewhere. You probably won't have as easy of a time as you would in the jungle, but Vlad's timing should still be relatively easy, given normal safe lane farm with one or two supports pulling. Since the damage output of wolves have not changed, the only time i tried lycan post-patch, I started ring of protection + ring of regen + 1 mana pot, sucked experience in lane until lv 3, and then just jungled as normal tanking with tranq boots and using the wolves for dps. Its obviously quite a bit slower than before and requires you to go to lane, but the end result was still reasonable imo Obviously that goes into vlads + medalion at some point for roshan | ||
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
On October 06 2012 14:32 Kupon3ss wrote: There's two schools of thought on how to learn DotA, one is to pick a hero (usually of average or below difficulty), play it to death until you feel comfortable and move on through heroes to like. You figure out how to play a hero, and then you move on to how to play similar heroes, and then eventually you move on to a whole new different set of heroes and roles and learn that. The other (and the one Icefrog recommended to Gaben) is not worrying about specific heroes and roles and specifics, but just hit the random button and do the best you can, asking for help and absorbing as much as you can from a given game. What you're trying to do is learning "the game", of cause and effect and of hero and map interactions. The obvious problem is that it'll take much longer to "get good" than a guy playing invoker 100 games in a row, but I feel that it might allow you to "understand" DotA and become capable of watching it and analyzing it but better than the first method. I once was a proponent of the first school of thought--showing a new player one hero and then having him/her grind games with that hero. DotA already has enough variables in it; by sticking with one familiar hero you help to reduce the information overload happening to the new player. Yet doing this I find leads to problems both immediately and later down the road. While most new players will be told to play Lich or Skeleton King, I find that these heroes don't really help you breach the nuances of the game. While I certainly don't recommend people starting off with Pudge or Invoker, I think Lich and Skeleton King are on the opposite end of the spectrum--they are very forgiving heroes and a bit too easy to play, and thus come with some stigma when your friend enters his first pub games. Bars aren't set very high for Lich/SnK players, and thus stagnation can occur quite quickly. I also believe that when people choose only one or two heroes when first starting, this can lead to very robotic actions, which obviously aren't the best for stimulating self-conscious thoughts or decision-making processes. Were I to recommend newer players heroes, I'd tell them to play Leshrac, or Sand King--impactful heroes where one can easily and visibly see the correlation between skill increase and hero usefulness. Interestingly enough, with one of my friends who I taught DotA... I told him to start out by playing Lich. He massed two hundred or so games as pretty much just Lich. Then he decided that he'd rather play Invoker and Pudge. But playing Lich had some sort of stupefying effect on him, and his Invoker (while relatively decent mechanically speaking--not going to get started on the Pudge) was as if played by a computer with no proactive ability--only the ability to react slowly. He's got over a thousand games under his belt now, and only recently have I noticed him beginning to assess and adapt to situations. Nowadays, when I'm helping new people get started I heavily push for the "try out many heroes" approach. While some of us can play (and enjoy playing) every single role, others of us heavily prefer ganking, or supporting, or initiating. By pigeonholing a friend into playing one or two heroes, you potentially delay that friend's realization that, perhaps, he enjoys starting fights by jumping in with Earthshaker or Sand King. Of course, by trying so many heroes DotA is overwhelming... it's like playing chess with 100 different types of pieces. And on top of all that there's stacking, pulling, warding, teleporting to team fights... In the grand scheme of things, having an excellent grasp on one hero isn't too much of a boon. You're not always going to be around to baby your friend and tell him exactly what each and every enemy does. At some point, if he wants to learn, he'll read guides, watch VODs, and figure out DotA from additional alternative knowledge sources that aren't as time-sensitive as allies yelling at you to buy a chicken when the game starts. Either way, it takes grinding to understand DotA. Hell, I've played 2000 games in the past few years and I still majorly suck at roaming. The game is tough, but that's why we love it. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On October 06 2012 15:08 LazyFailKid wrote: + Show Spoiler + And fyi you thought you played invoker well after a few games? Wait till you see dendivoker and the hard part is not actually 'fast enough to dish out the spells', is about how well you understand the strength of your allied and oppo heroes and then the decision making on how effectively you should use your spells. My everything is complete shit lol. I'm really bad (hence why i've asked like 20 questions in the simple questions;simple answers thread, thanks again to dead9 for the help ^_^). My problem (like many others) isn't the heroes but my ingame decisions, I'm out of position pretty much all the time like Rybka said and I probably don't even realize it. I get caught trying to catch up on farm when people are pushing our outer mid tower down, I don't carry a tp with me all the time and millions of other mistakes but you can see these things no matter who your playing. For example when you get ganked when you push too far you dont think "oh I should have used my blink/stealth skill" you think "shouldn't have been that far out. I dont even know what were arguing about anymore lol Edit: Since I worded that in a horrible way, what im trying to say is that it doesnt matter who your playing. If you get caught out of position and you learn from it then you would've learned from it anyway. If you dont learn from it then it wouldn't have mattered who you were playing. Of course it doesn't matter which hero you are playing, because your basic learning curve will be the same. The problem is playing big impact heroes with low experience will ruin the game for the whole team. If you don't know how to play invoker, rubick, pudge, void, don't play it, you are sacrificing playing experience of the whole team for the sake of learning basic stuff that you will learn from other "easy" heroes anyway. Moreover, when you get used to the game and play those "easy" heroes comfortably(positioning, item ultilizing, optimizing spell/item cooldown), you come back and play invoker, rubick, pudge,... you'll see that you'll have much easier time to master those heroes. KISS - keep it simple stupid. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
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TheEmulator
28102 Posts
On October 06 2012 16:22 flamewheel wrote: I live in Denmark. Danish for Denmark is Danmark. Danmark is close enough to Marka, which is close to Murka, which is close to 'MURKA. Hence, Danm(u)rka except for the u is an e. That is interesting lol | ||
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SirMilford
Australia1269 Posts
On October 06 2012 15:53 flamewheel wrote: I once was a proponent of the first school of thought--showing a new player one hero and then having him/her grind games with that hero. DotA already has enough variables in it; by sticking with one familiar hero you help to reduce the information overload happening to the new player. Yet doing this I find leads to problems both immediately and later down the road. While most new players will be told to play Lich or Skeleton King, I find that these heroes don't really help you breach the nuances of the game. While I certainly don't recommend people starting off with Pudge or Invoker, I think Lich and Skeleton King are on the opposite end of the spectrum--they are very forgiving heroes and a bit too easy to play, and thus come with some stigma when your friend enters his first pub games. Bars aren't set very high for Lich/SnK players, and thus stagnation can occur quite quickly. I also believe that when people choose only one or two heroes when first starting, this can lead to very robotic actions, which obviously aren't the best for stimulating self-conscious thoughts or decision-making processes. Were I to recommend newer players heroes, I'd tell them to play Leshrac, or Sand King--impactful heroes where one can easily and visibly see the correlation between skill increase and hero usefulness. Interestingly enough, with one of my friends who I taught DotA... I told him to start out by playing Lich. He massed two hundred or so games as pretty much just Lich. Then he decided that he'd rather play Invoker and Pudge. But playing Lich had some sort of stupefying effect on him, and his Invoker (while relatively decent mechanically speaking--not going to get started on the Pudge) was as if played by a computer with no proactive ability--only the ability to react slowly. He's got over a thousand games under his belt now, and only recently have I noticed him beginning to assess and adapt to situations. Nowadays, when I'm helping new people get started I heavily push for the "try out many heroes" approach. While some of us can play (and enjoy playing) every single role, others of us heavily prefer ganking, or supporting, or initiating. By pigeonholing a friend into playing one or two heroes, you potentially delay that friend's realization that, perhaps, he enjoys starting fights by jumping in with Earthshaker or Sand King. Of course, by trying so many heroes DotA is overwhelming... it's like playing chess with 100 different types of pieces. And on top of all that there's stacking, pulling, warding, teleporting to team fights... In the grand scheme of things, having an excellent grasp on one hero isn't too much of a boon. You're not always going to be around to baby your friend and tell him exactly what each and every enemy does. At some point, if he wants to learn, he'll read guides, watch VODs, and figure out DotA from additional alternative knowledge sources that aren't as time-sensitive as allies yelling at you to buy a chicken when the game starts. Either way, it takes grinding to understand DotA. Hell, I've played 2000 games in the past few years and I still majorly suck at roaming. The game is tough, but that's why we love it. I think people should state the overall number of games you should play with a hero. When you first start Dota2 i would say playing Lich is perfectly fine! Just do not go overboard and play 200 games with just that hero. Over the years i have taught a lot of people how to play Dota-HoN, and some friends love playing the first hero you give them and will play 500 games with that 1 hero. (Slither for one of my mates from HoN). That is fine if they enjoy it, but usually most people will want to play other heroes relatively fast. | ||
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
A much more troubling issue: Any idea how hero performance is calculated? Just got my 5th game with Axe and apparently I´m abysmally bad. I can´t remember a game where I went in my own jungle, I mostly go enemy jungle and kill shit or at least disrupt the enemies by ganking with battlehunger. Real men conquer the enemy jungle after all. Anyway I just got less than a third of a bar for my performance. It´s my first hero below 1 bar. That´s ridiculous. Me going enemy wood, getting first blood or assisting first blood, having the highest party number(kill+assist) for the first 15 minutes and I get fucking 8/100? My other junglers are apparently far below average too. | ||
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TheEmulator
28102 Posts
On October 06 2012 16:37 SirMilford wrote: I think people should state the overall number of games you should play with a hero. When you first start Dota2 i would say playing Lich is perfectly fine! Just do not go overboard and play 200 games with just that hero. Over the years i have taught a lot of people how to play Dota-HoN, and some friends love playing the first hero you give them and will play 500 games with that 1 hero. (Slither for one of my mates from HoN). That is fine if they enjoy it, but usually most people will want to play other heroes relatively fast. The biggest part of the fun is learning lots of heroes imo. It is fine to play lich or whatever for 20 games or so, but like you said, 200 is overkill. | ||
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34505 Posts
On October 06 2012 16:22 flamewheel wrote: I live in Denmark. Danish for Denmark is Danmark. Danmark is close enough to Marka, which is close to Murka, which is close to 'MURKA. Hence, Danm(u)rka except for the u is an e. How are people buying this | ||
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