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On October 06 2012 12:25 LazyFailKid wrote:
I'd rather get the hard heroes out of the way at the start where everyone else isn't very good rather then play the easier heroes and have difficulties switching over when i'm versing better players lol
There is a reason you teach a child to crawl before you teach them to walk.
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On October 06 2012 12:28 Mataza wrote:Any advice with Lycan on lane? Lycanthrope was a guilty pleasure of mine ever since his big overhaul(when he became jungle material and his ulti became autohasted). Tried it once, but Basi or Vlad are insufficient for the wolf mana cost and you have to tank with your hero fulltime. Nerfed so hard. It feels like going wolfless would be the better jungle build now until you have vlads. Anyway I never played him on lane in years. I´m too afraid to actually pick him, as his very old laning was fucking awful. Suddenly Bounty Hunter is my guilty pleasure hero thanks to the shadowblade guide. Just played him 6 times in a row and now I´m proficient at playing him. Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 12:25 LazyFailKid wrote:
I'd rather get the hard heroes out of the way at the start where everyone else isn't very good rather then play the easier heroes and have difficulties switching over when i'm versing better players lol Is that so? Try Meepo or Invoker, then come back and let us recommend Sven to you.
I just failed hard with lycan. Next time I'm getting him, I'll repick.
Wolves are literally useless. Yes they deal good damage, but a few right clicks or collateral AoE and they die.
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On October 06 2012 12:33 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 12:28 Mataza wrote:Any advice with Lycan on lane? Lycanthrope was a guilty pleasure of mine ever since his big overhaul(when he became jungle material and his ulti became autohasted). Tried it once, but Basi or Vlad are insufficient for the wolf mana cost and you have to tank with your hero fulltime. Nerfed so hard. It feels like going wolfless would be the better jungle build now until you have vlads. Anyway I never played him on lane in years. I´m too afraid to actually pick him, as his very old laning was fucking awful. Suddenly Bounty Hunter is my guilty pleasure hero thanks to the shadowblade guide. Just played him 6 times in a row and now I´m proficient at playing him. On October 06 2012 12:25 LazyFailKid wrote:
I'd rather get the hard heroes out of the way at the start where everyone else isn't very good rather then play the easier heroes and have difficulties switching over when i'm versing better players lol Is that so? Try Meepo or Invoker, then come back and let us recommend Sven to you. I just failed hard with lycan. Next time I'm getting him, I'll repick. Wolves are literally useless. Yes they deal good damage, but a few right clicks or collateral AoE and they die.
Oh no. Please let him not be back to being shit again.
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meh, just run lycan as solo safe laner or smthing and use wolf to pull while farm lane. Run a strong 4 pusher line up and pressure so lycan has room to solo push later :-/.
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Put him in lane, stack/scout/runecontrol with your wolves. Lycan doesn't hit like a baby. You can still rush vlads/medaillon but I don't know if you're able to solo rosh as fast as before.
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well lycan wolves have just as much spell HP but half the physical HP.
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He can still easily rosh with vlad/treads.
Lycan was a terrible laner to begin with. Or at least back then.
I don´t remember Lycan being known for his decent laning. If you have to lane him as you would lane a hardcarry than that is my definition of shit. Needing a babysitter on the safe lane. Not that his damage is weak, but his lane presence was never really strong. Wolves will be harassed by ranged enemies as you would, and his small manapool means you´re mostly relying on yourself. Wolves get invis only at lvl 7 and before that they´re just not very sturdy.
(Mostly experience with very old lycan, as well as looking at the new numbers. Spell HP helps against what? Crystal Maiden, Rhasta, maybe Slayer)
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Mid/late he is basically the same hero. No one is going to autoattack wolves in the middle of a teamfight or anything. And he was mainly played in a lane in pro games anyway. It's still a hit for his effectiveness, and he may fall completely out of favour, but the nerfs aren't that bad. The buffs to everyone else will also have an effect on his popularity as well.
Of course in pubs he will take a huge drop in effectiveness.
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On October 06 2012 12:31 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 12:25 LazyFailKid wrote:
I'd rather get the hard heroes out of the way at the start where everyone else isn't very good rather then play the easier heroes and have difficulties switching over when i'm versing better players lol There is a reason you teach a child to crawl before you teach them to walk.
If you learn to walk before you crawl then crawling will come naturally.
On October 06 2012 12:31 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 12:25 LazyFailKid wrote:
I'd rather get the hard heroes out of the way at the start where everyone else isn't very good rather then play the easier heroes and have difficulties switching over when i'm versing better players lol it is quite hard to pick in a non-professional team when the tournament actually has professional players competing. Me myself didnt really care about winning but to have good game we need some good heroes and execution from the start. Like i cant pick invoker for our mid solo, cant pick naga for our farm carry.... things are just so... weird. We finally end up with something like Lina solomid in practice which pretty much make no sense but somehow we won bc our players know what they were doing...
So your saying that learning the basics of the game aren't as important as learning individual heroes and that picking an easier hero lets you think about the basics while your still new?
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On October 06 2012 13:30 LAN-f34r wrote:
Mid/late he is basically the same hero. No one is going to autoattack wolves in the middle of a teamfight or anything. And he was mainly played in a lane in pro games anyway. It's still a hit for his effectiveness, and he may fall completely out of favour, but the nerfs aren't that bad. The buffs to everyone else will also have an effect on his popularity as well.
Of course in pubs he will take a huge drop in effectiveness.
was he mainly played in lane though? In the international 2 it felt like half and half, leaning more towards jungling then lane.
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On October 06 2012 13:30 LazyFailKid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 12:31 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 06 2012 12:25 LazyFailKid wrote:
I'd rather get the hard heroes out of the way at the start where everyone else isn't very good rather then play the easier heroes and have difficulties switching over when i'm versing better players lol There is a reason you teach a child to crawl before you teach them to walk. If you learn to walk before you crawl then crawling will come naturally. Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 12:31 NB wrote:On October 06 2012 12:25 LazyFailKid wrote:
I'd rather get the hard heroes out of the way at the start where everyone else isn't very good rather then play the easier heroes and have difficulties switching over when i'm versing better players lol it is quite hard to pick in a non-professional team when the tournament actually has professional players competing. Me myself didnt really care about winning but to have good game we need some good heroes and execution from the start. Like i cant pick invoker for our mid solo, cant pick naga for our farm carry.... things are just so... weird. We finally end up with something like Lina solomid in practice which pretty much make no sense but somehow we won bc our players know what they were doing... So your saying that learning the basics of the game aren't as important as learning individual heroes and that picking an easier hero lets you think about the basics while your still new?
Not really. You can't just start walking. You'll just keep falling over and over.
Yes, learning the basics are important. But if you dive right into a difficult hero, you're just gonna spend your next 100 games clueless about what's going on.
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best way to learn is to fail...
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Is lycan un-junglable now?
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On October 06 2012 13:42 EchoZ wrote:
Is lycan un-junglable now?
It is not impossible, but lacking compared to befpre. Have to stick to the easy stacks and takes more effort to keep the alive (you may even do the tanking as well). Laning is probably better imo, than you can jungle after you get more levels in summons.
I played a match with Lycan and at first I was worried; I slowly remembered that there was the nerf and outleveled (and farmed) him.
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United States47024 Posts
The point of starting with easy heroes is that you don't get stuck on learning your own hero, which lets you focus on paying attention to other heroes/general flow of the game/anything that's not hero specific, which is the stuff you really care about when you're starting out. Hard heroes are hard largely because of a lot of hero-specific stuff that you could spend a lot of time learning/perfecting and still have it end up being comparatively useless when you play other heroes.
Like, learning the muscle memory to invoke spells quickly on Invoker basically gives you nothing that actually matters on non-Invoker heroes.
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On October 06 2012 13:36 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 13:30 LazyFailKid wrote:On October 06 2012 12:31 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 06 2012 12:25 LazyFailKid wrote:
I'd rather get the hard heroes out of the way at the start where everyone else isn't very good rather then play the easier heroes and have difficulties switching over when i'm versing better players lol There is a reason you teach a child to crawl before you teach them to walk. If you learn to walk before you crawl then crawling will come naturally. On October 06 2012 12:31 NB wrote:On October 06 2012 12:25 LazyFailKid wrote:
I'd rather get the hard heroes out of the way at the start where everyone else isn't very good rather then play the easier heroes and have difficulties switching over when i'm versing better players lol it is quite hard to pick in a non-professional team when the tournament actually has professional players competing. Me myself didnt really care about winning but to have good game we need some good heroes and execution from the start. Like i cant pick invoker for our mid solo, cant pick naga for our farm carry.... things are just so... weird. We finally end up with something like Lina solomid in practice which pretty much make no sense but somehow we won bc our players know what they were doing... So your saying that learning the basics of the game aren't as important as learning individual heroes and that picking an easier hero lets you think about the basics while your still new? Not really. You can't just start walking. You'll just keep falling over and over. Yes, learning the basics are important. But if you dive right into a difficult hero, you're just gonna spend your next 100 games clueless about what's going on.
Can't really say I'm understanding what your saying here lol
When I play invoker he seems fairly simple, that hard part is getting out the spells you want fast enough to be effective in fights lol. Same with visage but visage just demands a different set of skills than invoker (faster and more precise mouse actions, something im bad at and looking to improve lol). Doesn't seem to me like picking any hero will stop you from understanding whats happening ingame. Every teamfight i've understood to a basic degree what happens and why we won/lost.
Edit: TheYango said pretty much what ive understood so far but it just seems to me like playing pretty much anyone Its possible understand why stuff happens ingame. Not like your going to be busy looking at what your w does as invoker in the middle of a teamfight.
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Only way to fix Lycan is to give his wolves bash again. Then would he be a good laner. ^_^
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United States47024 Posts
On October 06 2012 13:51 LazyFailKid wrote:
Edit: TheYango said pretty much what ive understood so far but it just seems to me like playing pretty much anyone Its possible understand why stuff happens ingame. Not like your going to be busy looking at what your w does as invoker in the middle of a teamfight.
The idea is that isolating things in a specific game allow you to focus on those things and improve. When you're not worrying about how to invoke the next spell you want to cast (which is a comparatively meaningless thing to be thinking about in the grand scheme of things), that gives you more time to focus on things like "what is my m.o. in this particular lane matchup?", "what sort of role do I play on my team, and how does that relate to the enemy's hero selection?", "should i be farming right now, or is there an opportunity that I'm missing that could be used to accomplish something (e.g. gank/push/take Roshan)?"
DotA is a complicated game with a lot of facets to the gameplay, and there are always different aspects to improve even on the simplest hero. I see no reason for someone to start on a complex hero like Invoker when even the simplest heroes have many intricacies that you can perfect over the course of a game, and not manage to master in thousands of games.
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In short, Movement, Mana Management and Map awareness are intricate things that have a lot to do with experience and intuition.
For example after a while you should get a feeling for when you´re being ganked or are in danger of being ganked.
It´s a lot harder to concentrate on the 3 Ms when you´re getting accustomed to your hero.
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On October 06 2012 14:00 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 13:51 LazyFailKid wrote:
Edit: TheYango said pretty much what ive understood so far but it just seems to me like playing pretty much anyone Its possible understand why stuff happens ingame. Not like your going to be busy looking at what your w does as invoker in the middle of a teamfight. The idea is that isolating things in a specific game allow you to focus on those things and improve. When you're not worrying about how to invoke the next spell you want to cast (which is a comparatively meaningless thing to be thinking about in the grand scheme of things), that gives you more time to focus on things like "what is my m.o. in this particular lane matchup?", "what sort of role do I play on my team, and how does that relate to the enemy's hero selection?", "should i be farming right now, or is there an opportunity that I'm missing that could be used to accomplish something (e.g. gank/push/take Roshan)?" DotA is a complicated game with a lot of facets to the gameplay, and there are always different aspects to improve even on the simplest hero. I see no reason for someone to start on a complex hero like Invoker when even the simplest heroes have many intricacies that you can perfect over the course of a game, and not manage to master in thousands of games.
There's two schools of thought on how to learn DotA, one is to pick a hero (usually of average or below difficulty), play it to death until you feel comfortable and move on through heroes to like. You figure out how to play a hero, and then you move on to how to play similar heroes, and then eventually you move on to a whole new different set of heroes and roles and learn that.
The other (and the one Icefrog recommended to Gaben) is not worrying about specific heroes and roles and specifics, but just hit the random button and do the best you can, asking for help and absorbing as much as you can from a given game. What you're trying to do is learning "the game", of cause and effect and of hero and map interactions. The obvious problem is that it'll take much longer to "get good" than a guy playing invoker 100 games in a row, but I feel that it might allow you to "understand" DotA and become capable of watching it and analyzing it but better than the first method.
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EPT
