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On May 03 2013 21:23 Teoita wrote: Protoss is already in trouble in the midgame when medivacs are out while being incredibly greedy early game. If you force protoss to play safer the whole matchup goes to shit. Most maps have really close three bases, if you position your army near the third and have your mothership core defend both your main+natural it seems even easier to defend medivacs with warpins than in WoL tbh.
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On May 03 2013 21:31 axgxFighter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 21:25 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran. Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy. 1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance. Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
I need to see a replay where the protoss has a 5:33 oracle and what they cut to get that.
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On May 03 2013 21:34 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 21:31 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 21:25 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran. Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy. 1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance. Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33 I need to see a replay where the protoss has a 5:33 oracle and what they cut to get that.
5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
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On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 21:34 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 21:31 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 21:25 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran. Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy. 1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance. Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33 I need to see a replay where the protoss has a 5:33 oracle and what they cut to get that. 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
And you lose like shit vs 2+ reaper in your base while you go for late stalker. As others said, whine post to me.
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On May 03 2013 21:32 gillon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 21:25 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran. Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy. 1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance. Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong re your edit: so what, we keep scouting with the reaper. Your theory that Toss can do whatever they like without scouting is laughable. Cloak Banshee... one base fast drop play... MKP style marine all in.... all kinda GG unscouted Oracle is out before a mine can be out with a 15 gas. Is terran supposed to gas first fact rush to get mine out to expo and therefore be miles behind every game, or do you simply not have a clue? I'm guessing it's the second part.
Nice post. Who said you have to go 15 gas? Anyway, 15 gas can have a mine out at 5:29. Fact.
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On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 21:34 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 21:31 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 21:25 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran. Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy. 1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance. Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33 I need to see a replay where the protoss has a 5:33 oracle and what they cut to get that. 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate. So the protoss just prays that the terran doesn't open with a reaper, because that stalker is going to be really late? And how do you not scout a protoss going double gas that doesn't have a single gas based unit and warpate isn't researching?
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On May 03 2013 21:40 drop271 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 21:32 gillon wrote:On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 21:25 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran. Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy. 1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance. Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong re your edit: so what, we keep scouting with the reaper. Your theory that Toss can do whatever they like without scouting is laughable. Cloak Banshee... one base fast drop play... MKP style marine all in.... all kinda GG unscouted Oracle is out before a mine can be out with a 15 gas. Is terran supposed to gas first fact rush to get mine out to expo and therefore be miles behind every game, or do you simply not have a clue? I'm guessing it's the second part. Nice post. Who said you have to go 15 gas? Anyway, 15 gas can have a mine out at 5:29. Fact.
Which is 19 seconds late. Fact.
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I'm a high master Terran and I have exactly the same problem as Filter in TvP.
I personally only do 2 base mech all-ins because I see absolutely no point in "trying to play standard" vs. Protoss. They have so many all-ins you have to account for, but could theoretically also be double expanding and still be safe. If I overprepare for an all-in, I'm behind in macro (double forge before robo anyone?), if I macro there is a chance that he hits me with an all-in, proxy oracles, dts, immortal busts, etc..
The problem is that opening 2 gas is standard for Protoss thanks to the mothership core, so getting a reaper in and scouting to gas tells you exactly bupkis about what the Protoss is doing, he could do a regular expand and just mine 2 gas for a fast MSC, it could be a DT drop, proxy oracle... anything.
Scanning the Protoss main doesn't help either, because most tech buildings are either hidden on the map or in some corner of their base. Scanning in the early game is a loss/loss for Terran anyway. If I scan I have essentially lost 240 minerals if the Protoss is macroing, which slows down my build, if he is all-ining Im lacking 240 minerals to defend his 6-7 min all-in (which is equal to 5 less marines).
Another problem is that you can be safe vs. basically any all-in, blink stalkers, DT or oracle, but if the protoss is doing that one build you can't possibly prepare for because you have prepared for everything else... you die.
Furthermore and this, I think, is the biggest problem in TvP. I have had Protoss players do all-ins vs. me and their all-ins would fail hard, but I cannot ever counter attack because if I do I just run into the nexus cannon which is pretty much a brick wall. If I defend a zerg all-in there are certain timings I have to punish them while they are trying to recover, same is true against terran. Against Protoss on the other hand it feels like there is absolutely no point in counter attacking because it's simply not going to work.
I also feel that the amount of binary-protoss all-ins has given lots of protoss players a freeride in to masters league and given them higher MMR than they should have. I sometimes play Protoss players with 100 apm, who just do one of the 20 protoss all-ins, while I try to defend as well as I can with twice their APM. If I hold off their all-in they lose, but the "easy to execute - hard to defend" protoss all-ins have given so many protoss players a freeride it's actually laughable. Where is the terran equivalent to that?
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On May 03 2013 21:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote:On May 03 2013 21:34 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 21:31 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 21:25 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran. Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy. 1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance. Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33 I need to see a replay where the protoss has a 5:33 oracle and what they cut to get that. 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate. So the protoss just prays that the terran doesn't open with a reaper, because that stalker is going to be really late? And how do you not scout a protoss going double gas that doesn't have a single gas based unit and warpate isn't researching?
You can know that he's doing it, but that won't change the fact that there's 0 ways to have more than 4 marines or 0 mines when it's in your main if you don't fucking 11/11 expo.
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On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 21:25 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran. Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy. 1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance. Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong re your edit: so what, we keep scouting with the reaper. Your theory that Toss can do whatever they like without scouting is laughable. Cloak Banshee... one base fast drop play... MKP style marine all in.... all kinda GG unscouted
The quickest oracle is out at 5.09 ^^ Theres no way you can have a mine out unless you go gas first, and even then its still possible to avoid it.
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On May 03 2013 21:31 axgxFighter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 21:25 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran. Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy. 1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance. Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
There: http://drop.sc/330203
I'll grab that apology now thanks
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On May 03 2013 21:42 gillon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 21:40 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote:On May 03 2013 21:34 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 21:31 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 21:25 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran. Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy. 1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance. Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33 I need to see a replay where the protoss has a 5:33 oracle and what they cut to get that. 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate. So the protoss just prays that the terran doesn't open with a reaper, because that stalker is going to be really late? And how do you not scout a protoss going double gas that doesn't have a single gas based unit and warpate isn't researching? You can know that he's doing it, but that won't change the fact that there's 0 ways to have more than 4 marines or 0 mines when it's in your main if you don't fucking 11/11 expo.
I'm sorry, I need to see these replays of these amazing, un-scoutable protoss builds that can only be blind countered. It sounds like a problem that can be solved by building a single reaper and seeing that the protoss is up to some nonsense.
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I believe blizzard is actually thinking about changing the gm icon to a proxy stargate icon after the next patch.
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On May 03 2013 21:43 drop271 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 21:31 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 21:25 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran. Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy. 1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance. Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33 There: http://drop.sc/330203I'll grab that apology now thanks
I am at work, I will watch it when I get home. But if these are builds that delay warpgate and the first stalker, it is scoutable.
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On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote: re your edit: so what, we keep scouting with the reaper. Your theory that Toss can do whatever they like without scouting is laughable. Cloak Banshee... one base fast drop play... MKP style marine all in.... all kinda GG unscouted
If you have any links of terran 1 base all ins succeeding at a tournament level, without protoss making huge errors, I'd love to see them. Both to work out how to stop them and how to execute them. Standard protoss play should shut all that down very very hard. Photon overcharge shuts down drops early (focusing the medivac). Standard toss play ends up with double nexus 3 gate robo (for obs for mine drops/cloak banshees). Stalker kiting/gateway units/mothership core has shut down every terran mass marine 1 base Ive ever seen. Old style 2 rax (reactor tech lab) is hard countered by protoss air and therefore a total coin flip. Obviously scouting is important but that really isnt very hard with probe into stalkers/mothership core and later air/hallu/obs.
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On May 03 2013 21:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 21:42 gillon wrote:On May 03 2013 21:40 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote:On May 03 2013 21:34 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 21:31 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 21:25 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran. Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy. 1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance. Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33 I need to see a replay where the protoss has a 5:33 oracle and what they cut to get that. 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate. So the protoss just prays that the terran doesn't open with a reaper, because that stalker is going to be really late? And how do you not scout a protoss going double gas that doesn't have a single gas based unit and warpate isn't researching? You can know that he's doing it, but that won't change the fact that there's 0 ways to have more than 4 marines or 0 mines when it's in your main if you don't fucking 11/11 expo. I'm sorry, I need to see these replays of these amazing, un-scoutable protoss builds that can only be blind countered. It sounds like a problem that can be solved by building a single reaper and seeing that the protoss is up to some nonsense.
How do you get inside a protoss base once he has a stalker and MSC out?
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On May 03 2013 21:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 21:43 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 21:31 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 21:25 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran. Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy. 1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance. Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33 There: http://drop.sc/330203I'll grab that apology now thanks I am at work, I will watch it when I get home. But if these are builds that delay warpgate and the first stalker, it is scoutable.
Yeah but what different does it make if its scoutable if you still cant have enough/the right units out in time to defend it?
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Some of you guys need to be more respectful. OP has contributed far more to SC2 than you have.
That said, I agree with Filter here. On ladder it's really hard to tell what's coming at me in the early game, and if I react incorrectly that can lead to huge advantages for Protoss. I'm not sure if it's imbalanced because I don't play at GM level, but I do think Protoss have many more effective options for doing devastating damage early on with little reprecussion, whereas Terran's options are much less effective and far less capable of transitioning into the mid game.
I think some of the Protoss players here are exaggerating the "scary 11 minute timing where Stim, +1 and Medivacs are done" here. Protoss can deal with the Terran push at this time providing they aren't playing overly greedy.
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On May 03 2013 21:28 gamerdude12345 wrote: Blizzard has stated many times that the game has asymmetrical balance. PvT is favored for Protoss in the early game, and then heading into the mid game it favors the Terran. This is how they designed the game and this is how they balance the game.
And what about the late game?
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On May 03 2013 21:47 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 21:44 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 21:42 gillon wrote:On May 03 2013 21:40 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote:On May 03 2013 21:34 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 21:31 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 21:25 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran. Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy. 1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance. Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33 I need to see a replay where the protoss has a 5:33 oracle and what they cut to get that. 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate. So the protoss just prays that the terran doesn't open with a reaper, because that stalker is going to be really late? And how do you not scout a protoss going double gas that doesn't have a single gas based unit and warpate isn't researching? You can know that he's doing it, but that won't change the fact that there's 0 ways to have more than 4 marines or 0 mines when it's in your main if you don't fucking 11/11 expo. I'm sorry, I need to see these replays of these amazing, un-scoutable protoss builds that can only be blind countered. It sounds like a problem that can be solved by building a single reaper and seeing that the protoss is up to some nonsense. How do you get inside a protoss base once he has a stalker and MSC out?
With a reaper. The build they are talking about involves not getting warpgate or a stalker and dumping all gas into an early proxy stargate.
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