|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
Ive got tomorrow off so ill probably just end up watching the whole thing
|
On July 22 2016 12:21 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2016 12:20 CorsairHero wrote:On July 22 2016 12:18 Mohdoo wrote: Lmao he is just making up tons of shit. He will be Jesus and the world will be amazing what the fuck LOL Is he really that religious? He can't even quote the bible correctly Trump is not religious in any way. Thats actually a good thing imo.
|
Notice how Ivanka instantly picks up on how creepy it looks and how oblivious Trump is until she pulls away and you see the moment of "oh yeah they can see us". Kinda disturbing to imagine what happens when no one is looking.
The more I watch it, it starts to look like he was going for a hip holding kiss.
|
On July 22 2016 13:50 CorsairHero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2016 12:21 Plansix wrote:On July 22 2016 12:20 CorsairHero wrote:On July 22 2016 12:18 Mohdoo wrote: Lmao he is just making up tons of shit. He will be Jesus and the world will be amazing what the fuck LOL Is he really that religious? He can't even quote the bible correctly Trump is not religious in any way. Thats actually a good thing imo.
Yep, that makes him a good pick for right wing democrats.
Only thing that's hard to tell right now, is how much he will appease to the republican religious nuts at this point. I think it's very clear that he doesn't support it.
|
On July 22 2016 12:53 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2016 12:40 Plansix wrote:On July 22 2016 12:37 xDaunt wrote:On July 22 2016 12:26 Plansix wrote:http://www.apnews.com/518de8f555b64357b2501c2ed2469314Despite promising "the truth, and nothing else" in his convention speech, Donald Trump presented the nation with a series of previously debunked claims and some new ones Thursday night — about the U.S. tax burden, the perils facing police, Hillary Clinton's record and more.
A look at some of the Republican presidential candidate's claims and how they compare with the facts:
___
TRUMP: "Decades of progress made in bringing down crime are now being reversed by this administration's rollback of criminal enforcement. Homicides last year increased by 17 percent in America's 50 largest cities. That's the largest increase in 25 years."
THE FACTS: A rollback? President Barack Obama has actually achieved some big increases in spending for state and local law enforcement, including billions in grants provided through the 2009 stimulus. While FBI crime statistics for 2015 are not yet available, Trump's claim about rising homicides appears to come from a Washington Post analysis published in January. While Trump accurately quotes part of the analysis, he omits that the statistical jump was so large because homicides are still very low by historical standards. In the 50 cities cited by the Post, for example, half as many people were killed last year as in 1991.
___
TRUMP: "The number of new illegal immigrant families who have crossed the border so far this year already exceeds the entire total from 2015. They are being released by the tens of thousands into our communities with no regard for the impact on public safety or resources."
THE FACTS: The pace of releasing immigrants is driven not by the Obama administration, but by a court ruling. A federal judge ruled last year that the government couldn't hold parents and children in jail for more than 20 days. An appeals court partially rolled that back earlier this month, saying that parents could be detained but children must be released.
By the standard used by the government to estimate illegal border crossings - the number of arrests — Trump is right that the number in this budget year has already exceeded last year's total. But it's down from 2014.
___
TRUMP: "When a secretary of state illegally stores her emails on a private server, deletes 33,000 of them so the authorities can't see her crime, puts our country at risk, lies about it in every different form and faces no consequence - I know that corruption has reached a level like never before."
THE FACTS: Clinton's use of a private server to store her emails was not illegal under federal law. Her actions were not established as a crime. The FBI investigated the matter and its role was to advise the Justice Department whether to bring charges against her based on what it found. FBI Director James Comey declined to refer the case for criminal prosecution to the Justice Department, instead accusing Clinton of extreme carelessness.
As for Trump's claim that Clinton faces no consequence, that may be true in a legal sense. But the matter has been a distraction to her campaign and fed into public perceptions that she can't be trusted. The election will test whether she has paid a price politically.
___
TRUMP: "The number of police officers killed in the line of duty has risen by almost 50 percent compared to this point last year."
THE FACTS: Not according to the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, which tracks police fatalities daily. The group found that the number of police officers who died as of July 20 is up just slightly this year, at 67, compared with 62 through the same period last year. That includes deaths in the line of duty from all causes, including traffic fatalities.
It is true that there has been a spike in police deaths from intentional shootings, 32 this year compared with 18 last year, largely attributable to the recent mass shootings in Dallas and Baton Rouge. But that was not his claim.
And overall, police are statistically safer on America's streets now than at any time in recent decades.
For example, the 109 law enforcement fatalities in 2013 were the lowest since 1956.
___
TRUMP: "Two million more Latinos are in poverty today than when President Obama took his oath of office less than eight years ago. Another 14 million people have left the workforce entirely. ... President Obama has almost doubled our national debt to more than $19 trillion, and growing."
THE FACTS: Trump is playing with numbers to make the economy look worse than it actually is. The sluggish recovery over the past seven years has been frustrating. But with unemployment at 4.9 percent, the situation isn't as bleak as he suggests.
Trump's figure of 14 million who've stopped working since Obama took office comes from the Labor Department's measure of people not in the workforce. It's misleading for three reasons: The U.S. population has increased in that time; the country has aged and people have retired; and younger people are staying in school longer for college and advanced degrees, so they're not in the labor force, either.
A better figure is labor force participation — the share of people with jobs or who are searching for work. That figure has declined from 65.7 percent when Obama took office to 62.7 percent now. Part of that decrease reflects retirements, but the decline is also a long-term trend.
On national debt, economists say a more meaningful measure than dollars is the share of the overall economy taken up by the debt. By that measure, the debt rose 36 percent under Obama (rather than doubling). That's roughly the same as what occurred under Republican President George W. Bush.
The Hispanic population has risen since Obama while the poverty rate has fallen. The Pew Research Center found that 23.5 percent of the country's 55.3 million Latinos live in poverty, compared with 24.7 percent in 2010. Some of these are not even stretching the truth, they are just wrong. Or lies, depending on how much you think Trump bothers to look into his claims. Do you even read this shit before you post it? Do you? Yep, and it's completely horseshit. It's the kind of thing that gives fact-checkers a bad name. Here's just one example: Show nested quote +TRUMP: "The number of new illegal immigrant families who have crossed the border so far this year already exceeds the entire total from 2015. They are being released by the tens of thousands into our communities with no regard for the impact on public safety or resources."
THE FACTS: The pace of releasing immigrants is driven not by the Obama administration, but by a court ruling. A federal judge ruled last year that the government couldn't hold parents and children in jail for more than 20 days. An appeals court partially rolled that back earlier this month, saying that parents could be detained but children must be released.
By the standard used by the government to estimate illegal border crossings - the number of arrests — Trump is right that the number in this budget year has already exceeded last year's total. But it's down from 2014. Trump presented neutral statistics. Why the fuck is this idiot author talking about the Obama administration and judges. What's particularly hilarious is that the author ADMITS THAT TRUMP WAS RIGHT. Jesus fucking Christ! This is journalistic bias (and malpractice) on parade. Yet you are more than happy to mindlessly post it. Bravo.
To be fair, citing "neutral statistics" isn't necessarily neutral. If you're claiming the statistics have a certain significance, but in fact they do not have that significance, you're being deceptive. Also the court case is not really under Obama's control, but Trump is implying it is. That's deceptive.
|
On July 22 2016 13:52 GreenHorizons wrote:Notice how Ivanka instantly picks up on how creepy it looks and how oblivious Trump is until she pulls away and you see the moment of "oh yeah they can see us". Kinda disturbing to imagine what happens when no one is looking. https://twitter.com/emmaladyrose/status/756317753808748547The more I watch it, it starts to look like he was going for a hip holding kiss.
Or you know he is ushering her to the side as they pass one another and just showing general affection
|
United States42986 Posts
xDaunt, if Trump blames Obama for something and promises that if he were President it'd be different then how can you argue that saying that while Trump is right that it happened he is wrong to place blame on the President or claim the ability to fix it because the President cannot control it, is bad fact checking. That second part isn't liberal spin, it's the heart of the matter.
|
On July 22 2016 13:52 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2016 12:53 xDaunt wrote:On July 22 2016 12:40 Plansix wrote:On July 22 2016 12:37 xDaunt wrote:On July 22 2016 12:26 Plansix wrote:http://www.apnews.com/518de8f555b64357b2501c2ed2469314Despite promising "the truth, and nothing else" in his convention speech, Donald Trump presented the nation with a series of previously debunked claims and some new ones Thursday night — about the U.S. tax burden, the perils facing police, Hillary Clinton's record and more.
A look at some of the Republican presidential candidate's claims and how they compare with the facts:
___
TRUMP: "Decades of progress made in bringing down crime are now being reversed by this administration's rollback of criminal enforcement. Homicides last year increased by 17 percent in America's 50 largest cities. That's the largest increase in 25 years."
THE FACTS: A rollback? President Barack Obama has actually achieved some big increases in spending for state and local law enforcement, including billions in grants provided through the 2009 stimulus. While FBI crime statistics for 2015 are not yet available, Trump's claim about rising homicides appears to come from a Washington Post analysis published in January. While Trump accurately quotes part of the analysis, he omits that the statistical jump was so large because homicides are still very low by historical standards. In the 50 cities cited by the Post, for example, half as many people were killed last year as in 1991.
___
TRUMP: "The number of new illegal immigrant families who have crossed the border so far this year already exceeds the entire total from 2015. They are being released by the tens of thousands into our communities with no regard for the impact on public safety or resources."
THE FACTS: The pace of releasing immigrants is driven not by the Obama administration, but by a court ruling. A federal judge ruled last year that the government couldn't hold parents and children in jail for more than 20 days. An appeals court partially rolled that back earlier this month, saying that parents could be detained but children must be released.
By the standard used by the government to estimate illegal border crossings - the number of arrests — Trump is right that the number in this budget year has already exceeded last year's total. But it's down from 2014.
___
TRUMP: "When a secretary of state illegally stores her emails on a private server, deletes 33,000 of them so the authorities can't see her crime, puts our country at risk, lies about it in every different form and faces no consequence - I know that corruption has reached a level like never before."
THE FACTS: Clinton's use of a private server to store her emails was not illegal under federal law. Her actions were not established as a crime. The FBI investigated the matter and its role was to advise the Justice Department whether to bring charges against her based on what it found. FBI Director James Comey declined to refer the case for criminal prosecution to the Justice Department, instead accusing Clinton of extreme carelessness.
As for Trump's claim that Clinton faces no consequence, that may be true in a legal sense. But the matter has been a distraction to her campaign and fed into public perceptions that she can't be trusted. The election will test whether she has paid a price politically.
___
TRUMP: "The number of police officers killed in the line of duty has risen by almost 50 percent compared to this point last year."
THE FACTS: Not according to the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, which tracks police fatalities daily. The group found that the number of police officers who died as of July 20 is up just slightly this year, at 67, compared with 62 through the same period last year. That includes deaths in the line of duty from all causes, including traffic fatalities.
It is true that there has been a spike in police deaths from intentional shootings, 32 this year compared with 18 last year, largely attributable to the recent mass shootings in Dallas and Baton Rouge. But that was not his claim.
And overall, police are statistically safer on America's streets now than at any time in recent decades.
For example, the 109 law enforcement fatalities in 2013 were the lowest since 1956.
___
TRUMP: "Two million more Latinos are in poverty today than when President Obama took his oath of office less than eight years ago. Another 14 million people have left the workforce entirely. ... President Obama has almost doubled our national debt to more than $19 trillion, and growing."
THE FACTS: Trump is playing with numbers to make the economy look worse than it actually is. The sluggish recovery over the past seven years has been frustrating. But with unemployment at 4.9 percent, the situation isn't as bleak as he suggests.
Trump's figure of 14 million who've stopped working since Obama took office comes from the Labor Department's measure of people not in the workforce. It's misleading for three reasons: The U.S. population has increased in that time; the country has aged and people have retired; and younger people are staying in school longer for college and advanced degrees, so they're not in the labor force, either.
A better figure is labor force participation — the share of people with jobs or who are searching for work. That figure has declined from 65.7 percent when Obama took office to 62.7 percent now. Part of that decrease reflects retirements, but the decline is also a long-term trend.
On national debt, economists say a more meaningful measure than dollars is the share of the overall economy taken up by the debt. By that measure, the debt rose 36 percent under Obama (rather than doubling). That's roughly the same as what occurred under Republican President George W. Bush.
The Hispanic population has risen since Obama while the poverty rate has fallen. The Pew Research Center found that 23.5 percent of the country's 55.3 million Latinos live in poverty, compared with 24.7 percent in 2010. Some of these are not even stretching the truth, they are just wrong. Or lies, depending on how much you think Trump bothers to look into his claims. Do you even read this shit before you post it? Do you? Yep, and it's completely horseshit. It's the kind of thing that gives fact-checkers a bad name. Here's just one example: TRUMP: "The number of new illegal immigrant families who have crossed the border so far this year already exceeds the entire total from 2015. They are being released by the tens of thousands into our communities with no regard for the impact on public safety or resources."
THE FACTS: The pace of releasing immigrants is driven not by the Obama administration, but by a court ruling. A federal judge ruled last year that the government couldn't hold parents and children in jail for more than 20 days. An appeals court partially rolled that back earlier this month, saying that parents could be detained but children must be released.
By the standard used by the government to estimate illegal border crossings - the number of arrests — Trump is right that the number in this budget year has already exceeded last year's total. But it's down from 2014. Trump presented neutral statistics. Why the fuck is this idiot author talking about the Obama administration and judges. What's particularly hilarious is that the author ADMITS THAT TRUMP WAS RIGHT. Jesus fucking Christ! This is journalistic bias (and malpractice) on parade. Yet you are more than happy to mindlessly post it. Bravo. To be fair, citing "neutral statistics" isn't necessarily neutral. If you're claiming the statistics have a certain significance, but in fact they do not have that significance, you're being deceptive. Also the court case is not really under Obama's control, but Trump is implying it is. That's deceptive.
Since when did fact-checking become the same thing as editorializing? You have to really, really stretch that portion of Trump's speech to find an implication of direct blame on the Obama administration for those immigration statistics as opposed to blaming the entire immigration system as a whole. My whole point is that fact-checking should be left to checking facts. If the statistics cited (the facts) are wrong, then something be said. But that's not what this author did. He's editorializing Trump's speech under the guise of fact-checking, by reading words and meanings (the blame on Obama) into the speech that aren't there. THAT is dishonest.
That said, the mere fact that y'all (and that dipshit author) are so unduly defensive about those statistics speaks volumes about what the real cause is.
|
Clinton you will get what you expect at least. She will probably at least attempt to do the progressive things she talks about. Sure she doesn't have the fire or ambition of Sanders but she will be working towards those goals.
With Trump who the hell knows. He really seems like he just improvises everything and plays it all by ear and just says shit because he is confident. I don't even think he is informed enough about the issues to know when he is lying... You really get the feeling he is like a student who had to write a 20 page paper in a night because he had the ego to think he could do it and his work reflects that.
Its hard to get an actual read on what he will do except Immigrants bad and more trickle down economics.
|
On July 22 2016 13:59 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2016 13:52 GreenHorizons wrote:Notice how Ivanka instantly picks up on how creepy it looks and how oblivious Trump is until she pulls away and you see the moment of "oh yeah they can see us". Kinda disturbing to imagine what happens when no one is looking. https://twitter.com/emmaladyrose/status/756317753808748547The more I watch it, it starts to look like he was going for a hip holding kiss. Or you know he is ushering her to the side as they pass one another
I've never done that by moving both my hands to someone's ass personally. One hand on their side or arm, not below the waist.
|
On July 22 2016 14:00 KwarK wrote: xDaunt, if Trump blames Obama for something and promises that if he were President it'd be different then how can you argue that saying that while Trump is right that it happened he is wrong to place blame on the President or claim the ability to fix it because the President cannot control it, is bad fact checking. That second part isn't liberal spin, it's the heart of the matter.
Again, Trump did not explicitly blame Obama for those statistics, which is the whole basis of the fraudulent fact-checking.
|
On July 22 2016 14:02 Slaughter wrote: Clinton you will get what you expect at least. She will probably at least attempt to do the progressive things she talks about. Sure she doesn't have the fire or ambition of Sanders but she will be working towards those goals.
With Trump who the hell knows. He really seems like he just improvises everything and plays it all by ear and just says shit because he is confident. I don't even think he is informed enough about the issues to know when he is lying... You really get the feeling he is like a student who had to write a 20 page paper in a night because he had the ego to think he could do it and his work reflects that.
Its hard to get an actual read on what he will do except Immigrants bad and more trickle down economics.
Well as long as Trump doesn't cause WW3, I'd prefer him over someone who continues with the status quo I disagree with, someone who is highly immoral, and someone who's policies will continue to create a larger and larger split between America as they continue shifting left.
|
On July 22 2016 13:59 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2016 13:52 GreenHorizons wrote:Notice how Ivanka instantly picks up on how creepy it looks and how oblivious Trump is until she pulls away and you see the moment of "oh yeah they can see us". Kinda disturbing to imagine what happens when no one is looking. https://twitter.com/emmaladyrose/status/756317753808748547The more I watch it, it starts to look like he was going for a hip holding kiss. Or you know he is ushering her to the side as they pass one another and just showing general affection
Maybe if he hadn't already suggested he would date her if she wasn't his daughter (while neglecting to mention his marriage stopping him) I might give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.
I ignore a lot of the media hyping up stuff, but come on. Ask any woman who's been sexually abused by a male family member and they will tell you it's clear as day.
|
Have none of y'all done ballroom dancing?
|
On July 22 2016 14:05 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2016 13:59 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On July 22 2016 13:52 GreenHorizons wrote:Notice how Ivanka instantly picks up on how creepy it looks and how oblivious Trump is until she pulls away and you see the moment of "oh yeah they can see us". Kinda disturbing to imagine what happens when no one is looking. https://twitter.com/emmaladyrose/status/756317753808748547The more I watch it, it starts to look like he was going for a hip holding kiss. Or you know he is ushering her to the side as they pass one another and just showing general affection Maybe if he hadn't already suggested he would date her if she wasn't his daughter (while neglecting to mention his marriage stopping him) I might give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. I ignore a lot of the media hyping up stuff, but come on. Ask any woman who's been sexually abused by a male family member and they will tell you it's clear as day.
Is this going to be the next trump scandal? Accusing him of sexually harassing his daughter?
|
United States42986 Posts
Like ultimately it comes down to "X is bad, I will fix it". An impartial fact check would confirm both the badness of X and the ability of the person making the claim to fix it. And yet somehow you're angered that the guy approached it that way and gave credit where it was due and criticized where it was lacking, claiming that in doing so he had made a poor job of an attack piece by confirming the statistic. That's his job for fucks sake. I know this is a novel concept to the right but the facts don't actually change just because you want them to. The reason why it fails as an attack piece by explaining the merits of both sides is because it wasn't an attack piece, he explained the merits of both sides to inform the reader about the claim.
|
On July 22 2016 14:07 xDaunt wrote: Have none of y'all done ballroom dancing?
Yes.
Semi-professionally, actually.
And it's completely irrelevant to this example.
|
On July 22 2016 14:11 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2016 14:07 xDaunt wrote: Have none of y'all done ballroom dancing? Yes. Semi-professionally, actually. And it's completely irrelevant to this example.
Look at you being fancy as fuck! But yeah, I don't think Trump was about to bust a move.
|
On July 22 2016 14:07 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2016 14:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 22 2016 13:59 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On July 22 2016 13:52 GreenHorizons wrote:Notice how Ivanka instantly picks up on how creepy it looks and how oblivious Trump is until she pulls away and you see the moment of "oh yeah they can see us". Kinda disturbing to imagine what happens when no one is looking. https://twitter.com/emmaladyrose/status/756317753808748547The more I watch it, it starts to look like he was going for a hip holding kiss. Or you know he is ushering her to the side as they pass one another and just showing general affection Maybe if he hadn't already suggested he would date her if she wasn't his daughter (while neglecting to mention his marriage stopping him) I might give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. I ignore a lot of the media hyping up stuff, but come on. Ask any woman who's been sexually abused by a male family member and they will tell you it's clear as day. Is this going to be the next trump scandal? Accusing him of sexually harassing his daughter?
Doubt it, but it's undeniable that Trump is attracted to his daughter and acts like most (creepy) men would around a woman they were attracted to and that's creepy.
|
On July 22 2016 14:05 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2016 14:02 Slaughter wrote: Clinton you will get what you expect at least. She will probably at least attempt to do the progressive things she talks about. Sure she doesn't have the fire or ambition of Sanders but she will be working towards those goals.
With Trump who the hell knows. He really seems like he just improvises everything and plays it all by ear and just says shit because he is confident. I don't even think he is informed enough about the issues to know when he is lying... You really get the feeling he is like a student who had to write a 20 page paper in a night because he had the ego to think he could do it and his work reflects that.
Its hard to get an actual read on what he will do except Immigrants bad and more trickle down economics. Well as long as Trump doesn't cause WW3, I'd prefer him over someone who continues with the status quo I disagree with, someone who is highly immoral, and someone who's policies will continue to create a larger and larger split between America as they continue shifting left. Funny, I expect Trump and a Republican Congress to more or less continue the status quo or make things worse, I consider Trump highly immoral, and I'm pretty sure his policies would be extremely divisive.
For reference, I consider Clinton to be a little worse than average as far as politicians go. Trump by comparison just seems like a terrible person. For example, he's said a lot of very divisive things (His comments on Mexicans, ban Muslims, etc.) that either he sincerely means, which I think makes him an immoral person, or he doesn't mean, which means that he's willing to stir up fear, anger, and mistrust of other people to win elections, which also makes him an immoral person.
EDIT: This is at the bottom of the page and nobody is going to see this post anyway, but I should clarify that I'm going to end up voting for Clinton (and basically everyone else running as a Democrat) because I'm opposed to basically all of Trump's positions and the Republican party's entire platform.
|
|
|
|