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On July 21 2016 01:26 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2016 01:20 RoomOfMush wrote:On July 21 2016 00:11 IgnE wrote:On July 20 2016 23:58 RoomOfMush wrote:On July 20 2016 23:55 Rebs wrote:On July 20 2016 23:27 RoomOfMush wrote:On July 20 2016 23:10 Rebs wrote:Just to shift the narrative abit because I'd like to see what people have to say. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/19/us-air-strike-in-syria-kills-up-to-85-civilians-mistaken-for-isi/Im going to throw in a bit of hyperbole for good measure.. Why doesn't every single American condemn this attack? Where was the drone pilot radicalized? Which websites did he go to? Who was his pastor? Is America truly a religion of peace? Oh right sorry, just war things. Shit happens right ? They were harbouring terrorists anyway. They are critizised for this in europe. But its still a different situation than suicide terrorism attacks. Its about intentions. They thought (or so they claim) they were attacking an enemy they are at war with. They fucked up. Thats not the same thing as somebody explicitly saying he wants to kill as many innocent civilians as possible because they are "the enemy". I think the biggest problem is that the US doesnt see those civilians as people. They are tragic casualties but its not like it was people who died so not too much of a problem. I mean come on man, the mistake and honest intentions argument is really really thin. Even if it is, you cant deny that the US is not outright saying they want to kill innocent civilians. The other side is. So if they really wanted to kill civilians it would be fine so long as they didn't "outright say" they wanted to? The opposite of "A is better than B" is not "A is good". I say it is better that they try to not kill civilians (and I believe them until there is proof that suggests otherwise) rather than trying to kill as many civilians as possible. That is a better thing. Does that make it good? Of course not. How can you even make such a ridiculous assumption? It wasn't an assumption. It was a question. Note the interrogative punctuation. I was trying to clarify your ambiguous statement which should be clear from the discussion preceding this post. It would be an interesting (but wrong) position to take that only what they say their intentions are (ie the outward representation) matters.
My statement was not ambigious at all. I said it numerous times and I can say it again: Those who try to be good are better than those who try to be bad. Maybe it is simpler now.
Of course we could assume the US is not actually trying to be good but even that is still better than actively trying to be bad.
But neither of those things make them good by default. Just because you try does not mean you succeed. Its just better than not trying at all.
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On July 21 2016 01:05 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2016 00:58 zlefin wrote:
igne -> I disagree with your claim that the us views them as ants to be trampled in pursuit of its war aims. I ask for proof/citations that that is the US government view.
I would also note that the US often does give something equivalent to weregild payments to victims. Though I don't have highly specific data. What are you talking about? The proof is in the drone strikes killing civilians time and again, and the government not ENDING the program in response to this statistical certainty. Like Chomsky says, they are not idiots. They know it's a certainty. They are choosing to kill innocent civilians time and again. And in doing so they are saying US citizens matter more than foreign innocents. US citizens are people and foreign citizens are ants.
They are choosing to kill civilians while also killing bad guys.
There are several different groups of drone strike targets, and the validity of each of them varies.
The claim that they value their own citizens rather than foreign citizens may well be true; but it's not necessarily the basis for the strikes, and seems like a claim you're adding in now. The question of how much obligation to accept risk is/should be required is a complicated one.
In war there are casualties; would it be justifiable to go to war against the Nazis knowing there would also be innocent casualties? If yes, then it's a question of the details in each case; if no, well, then we just have different beliefs.
I'm also wondering which ethical system(s), or blend thereof, you're using. No great matter, but if you'd like to look through here and pick some out (feel free not to of course, it's a lot to read):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics#Normative_ethics
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This is huge. He does not even intend to be president. How is this shitshow still going. god damn GOP, you really fucked up this year.
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On July 21 2016 01:42 Mohdoo wrote:This is huge. He does not even intend to be president. How is this shitshow still going. god damn GOP, you really fucked up this year.
You mean in the mid terms of 2010 and 2012 when they cultivated the Tea Party to take back the House.
Apparently George W. Bush said he was worried he will be the last Republican president, because he isn't sure the party is going to survive after Trump.
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On July 21 2016 01:42 Mohdoo wrote:This is huge. He does not even intend to be president. How is this shitshow still going. god damn GOP, you really fucked up this year.
That's really messed up.
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Buzz feed is the only one with this right now:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/trump-vets-adviser-clinton-should-be-put-in-the-firing-line?utm_term=.xaKaGegjn#.qb6k6X7Aq
“I’m a veteran that went to Desert Shield, Desert Storm. I’m also a father who sent a son to war, to Iraq, as a Marine Corps helicopter avionics technician. Hillary Clinton to me is the Jane Fonda of the Vietnam,” he said. “She is a disgrace for the lies that she told those mothers about their children that got killed over there in Benghazi. She dropped the ball on over 400 emails requesting back up security. Something’s wrong there.”
“This whole thing disgusts me, Hillary Clinton should be put in the firing line and shot for treason,” he added.
We 1960’s soviet union right now? Is this for real? We are advocating for the execution of our political opponents now? We just going to start calling people who don’t vote for Trump traitors too?
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On July 21 2016 01:58 Plansix wrote:Buzz feed is the only one with this right now: https://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/trump-vets-adviser-clinton-should-be-put-in-the-firing-line?utm_term=.xaKaGegjn#.qb6k6X7AqShow nested quote +“I’m a veteran that went to Desert Shield, Desert Storm. I’m also a father who sent a son to war, to Iraq, as a Marine Corps helicopter avionics technician. Hillary Clinton to me is the Jane Fonda of the Vietnam,” he said. “She is a disgrace for the lies that she told those mothers about their children that got killed over there in Benghazi. She dropped the ball on over 400 emails requesting back up security. Something’s wrong there.”
“This whole thing disgusts me, Hillary Clinton should be put in the firing line and shot for treason,” he added.
We 1960’s soviet union right now? Is this for real? We are advocating for the execution of our political opponents now? We just going to start calling people who don’t vote for Trump traitors too?
A prayer declared democrats to be enemies. This has all really gone too far.
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On July 21 2016 01:58 Plansix wrote:Buzz feed is the only one with this right now: https://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/trump-vets-adviser-clinton-should-be-put-in-the-firing-line?utm_term=.xaKaGegjn#.qb6k6X7AqShow nested quote +“I’m a veteran that went to Desert Shield, Desert Storm. I’m also a father who sent a son to war, to Iraq, as a Marine Corps helicopter avionics technician. Hillary Clinton to me is the Jane Fonda of the Vietnam,” he said. “She is a disgrace for the lies that she told those mothers about their children that got killed over there in Benghazi. She dropped the ball on over 400 emails requesting back up security. Something’s wrong there.”
“This whole thing disgusts me, Hillary Clinton should be put in the firing line and shot for treason,” he added.
We 1960’s soviet union right now? Is this for real? We are advocating for the execution of our political opponents now? We just going to start calling people who don’t vote for Trump traitors too?
Dont worry. The man is military, he knows what he is speaking about. If you trust this man with your safety and to defend the american values overseas you should also trust him in his judgement of political candidates.
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On July 21 2016 02:23 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2016 01:58 Plansix wrote:Buzz feed is the only one with this right now: https://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/trump-vets-adviser-clinton-should-be-put-in-the-firing-line?utm_term=.xaKaGegjn#.qb6k6X7Aq“I’m a veteran that went to Desert Shield, Desert Storm. I’m also a father who sent a son to war, to Iraq, as a Marine Corps helicopter avionics technician. Hillary Clinton to me is the Jane Fonda of the Vietnam,” he said. “She is a disgrace for the lies that she told those mothers about their children that got killed over there in Benghazi. She dropped the ball on over 400 emails requesting back up security. Something’s wrong there.”
“This whole thing disgusts me, Hillary Clinton should be put in the firing line and shot for treason,” he added.
We 1960’s soviet union right now? Is this for real? We are advocating for the execution of our political opponents now? We just going to start calling people who don’t vote for Trump traitors too? Dont worry. The man is military, he knows what he is speaking about. If you trust this man with your safety and to defend the american values overseas you should also trust him in his judgement of political candidates.
And law. He should be deciding who is executed, because that is how the legal system works.
The idea that the Trump GOP is actively pushing and feeding a narrative that the other party is corrupt and their nominee traitor is a asking for disaster. This isn't debate about policy, it is turning your opposition into villains. And if the GOP loses, the people that buy into this won't see it as democracy at all.
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Trump campaign's official response on the Melania speech
Meredith McIver, an in-house staff writer from the Trump Organization, has released a statement regarding Melania Trump's speech from July 18th, 2016, at the Republican National Convention in Cleveland, Ohio.
Source
Source to Statement
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On July 21 2016 02:36 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2016 02:23 RoomOfMush wrote:On July 21 2016 01:58 Plansix wrote:Buzz feed is the only one with this right now: https://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/trump-vets-adviser-clinton-should-be-put-in-the-firing-line?utm_term=.xaKaGegjn#.qb6k6X7Aq“I’m a veteran that went to Desert Shield, Desert Storm. I’m also a father who sent a son to war, to Iraq, as a Marine Corps helicopter avionics technician. Hillary Clinton to me is the Jane Fonda of the Vietnam,” he said. “She is a disgrace for the lies that she told those mothers about their children that got killed over there in Benghazi. She dropped the ball on over 400 emails requesting back up security. Something’s wrong there.”
“This whole thing disgusts me, Hillary Clinton should be put in the firing line and shot for treason,” he added.
We 1960’s soviet union right now? Is this for real? We are advocating for the execution of our political opponents now? We just going to start calling people who don’t vote for Trump traitors too? Dont worry. The man is military, he knows what he is speaking about. If you trust this man with your safety and to defend the american values overseas you should also trust him in his judgement of political candidates. And law. He should be deciding who is executed, because that is how the legal system works. The idea that the Trump GOP is actively pushing and feeding a narrative that the other party is corrupt and their nominee traitor is a asking for disaster. This isn't debate about policy, it is turning your opposition into villains. And if the GOP loses, the people that buy into this won't see it as democracy at all.
I am actually laughing at how absurdly hypocritical you guys are being. The left has been slandering Trump as literally Hitler for a year and NOW you start to care?
ROFL
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Very few have been calling him literally hitler, and those few are wackos. They have been saying there are troubling parallels.
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On July 21 2016 03:14 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2016 02:36 Plansix wrote:On July 21 2016 02:23 RoomOfMush wrote:On July 21 2016 01:58 Plansix wrote:Buzz feed is the only one with this right now: https://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/trump-vets-adviser-clinton-should-be-put-in-the-firing-line?utm_term=.xaKaGegjn#.qb6k6X7Aq“I’m a veteran that went to Desert Shield, Desert Storm. I’m also a father who sent a son to war, to Iraq, as a Marine Corps helicopter avionics technician. Hillary Clinton to me is the Jane Fonda of the Vietnam,” he said. “She is a disgrace for the lies that she told those mothers about their children that got killed over there in Benghazi. She dropped the ball on over 400 emails requesting back up security. Something’s wrong there.”
“This whole thing disgusts me, Hillary Clinton should be put in the firing line and shot for treason,” he added.
We 1960’s soviet union right now? Is this for real? We are advocating for the execution of our political opponents now? We just going to start calling people who don’t vote for Trump traitors too? Dont worry. The man is military, he knows what he is speaking about. If you trust this man with your safety and to defend the american values overseas you should also trust him in his judgement of political candidates. And law. He should be deciding who is executed, because that is how the legal system works. The idea that the Trump GOP is actively pushing and feeding a narrative that the other party is corrupt and their nominee traitor is a asking for disaster. This isn't debate about policy, it is turning your opposition into villains. And if the GOP loses, the people that buy into this won't see it as democracy at all. I am actually laughing at how absurdly hypocritical you guys are being. The left has been slandering Trump as literally Hitler for a year and NOW you start to care? ROFL
Call me when one of Clinton's staff calls for him to be executed or thrown in jail. I'll wait.
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You guys don't give a shit about the moral stakes in this or 'playing dirty' in politics; you're just pissed off about this 'team' you've attached yourselves to as the 'good guys' getting completely rolled over by the 'opposite team' you've set up as the 'bad guys'.
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On July 21 2016 03:13 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Trump campaign's official response on the Melania speech Show nested quote +Meredith McIver, an in-house staff writer from the Trump Organization, has released a statement regarding Melania Trump's speech from July 18th, 2016, at the Republican National Convention in Cleveland, Ohio. SourceSource to Statement
Lol so now they admit it...
sigh, so much easier if they just admit a mistake right away.
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On July 21 2016 03:25 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
You guys don't give a shit about the moral stakes in this or 'playing dirty' in politics; you're just pissed off about this 'team' you've attached yourselves to as the 'good guys' getting completely rolled over by the 'opposite team' you've set up as the 'bad guys'.
this post is some next level irony
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On July 21 2016 03:25 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
You guys don't give a shit about the moral stakes in this or 'playing dirty' in politics; you're just pissed off about this 'team' you've attached yourselves to as the 'good guys' getting completely rolled over by the 'opposite team' you've set up as the 'bad guys'.
you are wrong; and you are lumping us all together even though we've had different stances on those things, in some cases quite clearly. You are the one in error in your claim.
It's funny how often you say things that apply more to yourself than to the people you accuse them of. There's a term for that, but I can't quite recall it. projection maybe?
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Let the double down begin:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/07/20/donald-trump-s-thugs-execute-hillary-clinton-for-treason.html
CLEVELAND -- It is not enough to simply beat Hillary Clinton, an adviser to Donald Trump’s campaign said. She must be killed.
The theme of the last two nights has been less 'Make America Safe Again' or 'Make America Work Again' and more 'Lock Her Up.' But some of Trump's most diehard supporters want to go further -- they want her to be executed.
"Anyone that commits treason should be shot," Al Baldasaro, an adviser to the Trump campaign for veterans issues, he told The Daily Beast. "I believe Hillary Clinton committed treason. She put people in danger. When people take confidential material off a server, you're sharing information with the enemy. That's treason."
Baldasaro was expanding on a violent call he made Tuesday, when he called for Clinton to be "put in the firing line" over her mishandling of classified emails. He made these remarks on the Jeff Kuhner Show, Buzzfeed reported.
But Trump’s adviser, who is also a state representative in New Hampshire, is not the only one at the convention who believes that Clinton should be executed for treasonous acts.
West Virginia lawmaker Michael Folk said earlier this week that Hillary Clinton should be "hung on the mall in Washington DC" for treason. And on the campaign trail, reports show that Trump supporters have repeatedly called for her death.
The mood at the Republican National Convention has turned decidedly ugly -- on stage, primetime speaker Chris Christie conducted a mock trial of Clinton, playing to the crowd to convict her, and the crowd repeatedly called for her to be put in jail. Ben Carson tried to tie Clinton to Lucifer in his Tuesday night address.
Baldasaro called for Clinton should be sent directly to the afterlife. Under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, he argued, a conviction for treason could result in execution.
“I'm a military man. Any person who gives up information on an unclassified server, you're putting Americans at risk,” he told The Daily Beast. “If you're the commander in chief or you're the secretary of state, you're dealing with the military. What makes her any better than people in the military? What makes her above the law?”
Apparently the Trump campaign believes Clinton should be charged with treason and executed. Apparently this is what will make America great again.
On July 21 2016 03:25 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
You guys don't give a shit about the moral stakes in this or 'playing dirty' in politics; you're just pissed off about this 'team' you've attached yourselves to as the 'good guys' getting completely rolled over by the 'opposite team' you've set up as the 'bad guys'.
Well there is only one side calling for the execution of the other sides nominee. And that she worships the devil. Though that second part is pretty rad, to be honest.
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On July 21 2016 03:25 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
You guys don't give a shit about the moral stakes in this or 'playing dirty' in politics; you're just pissed off about this 'team' you've attached yourselves to as the 'good guys' getting completely rolled over by the 'opposite team' you've set up as the 'bad guys'.
you literally look at a post that is about someone from Trumps team saying that the people on the other side of the spectrum need some execution comming their way because they're evil and you come to the conclusion that it's the other "team" that thinks in "us good guys" vs "them bad guys" metrics? Seriously?
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On July 21 2016 03:26 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2016 03:13 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Trump campaign's official response on the Melania speech Meredith McIver, an in-house staff writer from the Trump Organization, has released a statement regarding Melania Trump's speech from July 18th, 2016, at the Republican National Convention in Cleveland, Ohio. SourceSource to Statement Lol so now they admit it... sigh, so much easier if they just admit a mistake right away.
Do you really expect that they knew what happened immediately?
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EPT
