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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1631

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 09 2015 15:24 GMT
#32601
Yeah the message in tea leaves are almost certain after this morning regarding Alabama.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
February 09 2015 18:54 GMT
#32602
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/04/fox-news-frozen-is-a-threat-to-masculinity-and-must-be-stopped.html
“It’s not good social science,” Nance says, unaware of the irony. “When we bring our daughters to see Frozen or whatever the movie is we often have our little boys sitting there. Is this message helpful? We want them to know that they’re essential. We want to raise heroes. We want to raise real men.”

Duh. Real men don’t watch Frozen.

She then talks about a man—a true hero, without jest—in Aurora, Colorado, who, during the shooting there, threw his body over his girlfriend to protect her from bullets. “We want to encourage masculinity and not villainize masculinity,” she says, putting the button on that totally-not-applicable anecdote.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
February 09 2015 19:06 GMT
#32603
everyone can be a princess
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11607 Posts
February 09 2015 19:19 GMT
#32604
We want to raise heroes. We want to raise real men.”

So, like. . .every superhero film: male and a hero.
And whose masculinity is threatened by one Disney film that gave a twist to their standard Disney princess formula?
Was it a slow news day for Fox?
ModeratorWake me up when Trump's term is finished. Slava Ukraini.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
February 09 2015 21:09 GMT
#32605
On February 09 2015 23:37 xDaunt wrote:
Looks like I may have been a little off on my 6-3 prediction for the upcoming US Supreme Court gay marriage decision. Alito may join Roberts and Kennedy in siding with the liberal justices.

Thomas/Scalia's dissent from the denied stay was a good read. Well put in only three pages.
Yet rather than treat like applicants alike, the Court looks the other way as yet another Federal District Judge casts aside state laws without making any effort to preserve the status quo pending the Court’s resolution of a constitutional question it left open in United States v. Windsor. This acquiescence may well be seen as a signal of the Court’s intended resolution of that question. This is not the proper way to discharge our Article III responsibilities. And, it is indecorous for this Court to pretend that it is.

Today’s decision represents yet another example of this Court’s increasingly cavalier attitude toward the States. Over the past few months, the Court has repeatedly denied stays of lower court judgments enjoining the enforcement of state laws on questionable constitutional grounds. It has similarly declined to grant certiorari to review such judgments without any regard for the people who approved those laws in popular referendums or elected the representatives who voted for them. In this case, the Court refuses even to grant a temporary stay when it will resolve the issue at hand in several months. I respectfully dissent from the denial of this application. I would have shown the people of Alabama the respect they deserve and preserved the status quo while the Court resolves this important constitutional question.
Again, more disrespect for equality before the law, since the court has granted stays pending judgment in other similar cases, as the link shows. It would be improper to indicate the resolution of the case prior to its conclusion, but who cares about decorum these days I guess. Anyways, we all know how this will almost certainly end. The methods and ways in which it was accomplished will be a black stain on the movement, as it would any other movement that used such means. I only wonder if the coming decision will meander between justifications even more than Windsor did (Scalia brings this up on page 15 of his dissent in the opinion.).
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18876 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-09 22:01:59
February 09 2015 22:00 GMT
#32606
State's Rights need to be curtailed. Commence the whining.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
February 09 2015 22:11 GMT
#32607
The methods and ways in which it was accomplished will be a black stain on the movement

*giggle*
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
February 09 2015 22:21 GMT
#32608
I'm for gay marriage, but even I can't deny that the jurisprudence that the Court is creating here is basically bullshit. Like abortion before it, this is what happens when such matters are decided by Courts rather than legislators.
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
February 09 2015 22:31 GMT
#32609
On February 10 2015 04:19 Falling wrote:
Show nested quote +
We want to raise heroes. We want to raise real men.”

So, like. . .every superhero film: male and a hero.
And whose masculinity is threatened by one Disney film that gave a twist to their standard Disney princess formula?
Was it a slow news day for Fox?

Just have to point out that wasnt the message. Their message was we shouldn't empower women by tearing down men, which has often been a criticism of feminism.

It is simplistic and Frozen is a strange target since its wave is already over, so it does seem like a slow news day segment. And the counter example of the guy in Aurora did nothing to support their argument so it was also a strange thing to say. I dunno why they didn't stick to the script and celebrate females who are heroes by their own merit without tearing down men and use those as examples of what they want to see.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24512 Posts
February 09 2015 22:31 GMT
#32610
On February 10 2015 07:21 xDaunt wrote:
I'm for gay marriage, but even I can't deny that the jurisprudence that the Court is creating here is basically bullshit. Like abortion before it, this is what happens when such matters are decided by Courts rather than legislators.


Pretty sure American's have basically made their decision, just a matter of the legal system and legislators (and some stubborn Americans) catching up (or dying from old age).
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
BallinWitStalin
Profile Joined July 2008
1177 Posts
February 09 2015 22:41 GMT
#32611
On February 10 2015 07:21 xDaunt wrote:
I'm for gay marriage, but even I can't deny that the jurisprudence that the Court is creating here is basically bullshit. Like abortion before it, this is what happens when such matters are decided by Courts rather than legislators.


I think your comment basically assumes working knowledge of the court system and how this issue was handled by them (I know you work in law, so this is understandable).

Could you by any chance explain in non-American layman's terms what the issue is?
I await the reminiscent nerd chills I will get when I hear a Korean broadcaster yell "WEEAAAAVVVVVUUUHHH" while watching Dota
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-09 22:43:38
February 09 2015 22:42 GMT
#32612
On February 10 2015 07:21 xDaunt wrote:
I'm for gay marriage, but even I can't deny that the jurisprudence that the Court is creating here is basically bullshit. Like abortion before it, this is what happens when such matters are decided by Courts rather than legislators.

there is not much jurisprudence in this particular decision. alternative is developing some formalism about what do in the interim with a hanging question. but there is no burning need for it for this particular case, since the previous, windsor decision was along the same vein of achieving policy result without settling a legal question.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-09 23:00:38
February 09 2015 22:55 GMT
#32613
On February 10 2015 07:42 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2015 07:21 xDaunt wrote:
I'm for gay marriage, but even I can't deny that the jurisprudence that the Court is creating here is basically bullshit. Like abortion before it, this is what happens when such matters are decided by Courts rather than legislators.

there is not much jurisprudence in this particular decision. alternative is developing some formalism about what do in the interim with a hanging question. but there is no burning need for it for this particular case, since the previous, windsor decision was along the same vein of achieving policy result without settling a legal question.

I agree that there probably won't be much that is "new" unlike in previous decisions, but it doesn't change the fact that this decision will be sitting upon a foundation of judicial horseshit.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
February 09 2015 23:41 GMT
#32614
Every discussion on the topic I get into just in daily life shifts to the consequentialist "the ends justify the means." Universal, state-approved gay marriage is justice, so any injustice accrued by methods is forgiven at the end. You could found the opposite movement on the same "standards" of jurisprudence, and all it would take is justices that think the other way. It's a really radical view of government to condone the subversion (insomuch as it still functions) of proper jurisprudence and separation of powers for societal goals so long as those goals are achieved. Legislators are becoming bit players for writing laws these days.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24512 Posts
February 09 2015 23:50 GMT
#32615
On February 10 2015 08:41 Danglars wrote:
Every discussion on the topic I get into just in daily life shifts to the consequentialist "the ends justify the means." Universal, state-approved gay marriage is justice, so any injustice accrued by methods is forgiven at the end. You could found the opposite movement on the same "standards" of jurisprudence, and all it would take is justices that think the other way. It's a really radical view of government to condone the subversion (insomuch as it still functions) of proper jurisprudence and separation of powers for societal goals so long as those goals are achieved. Legislators are becoming bit players for writing laws these days.


I'm not sure I understand your position? Sounds like you would of condemned civil rights activists for breaking laws at sit-ins and such?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
February 10 2015 00:04 GMT
#32616
On February 10 2015 08:41 Danglars wrote:
Every discussion on the topic I get into just in daily life shifts to the consequentialist "the ends justify the means." Universal, state-approved gay marriage is justice, so any injustice accrued by methods is forgiven at the end. You could found the opposite movement on the same "standards" of jurisprudence, and all it would take is justices that think the other way. It's a really radical view of government to condone the subversion (insomuch as it still functions) of proper jurisprudence and separation of powers for societal goals so long as those goals are achieved. Legislators are becoming bit players for writing laws these days.


Maybe people just don't care if states' rights are being eroded? The "the ends can never justify the means" argument depends on people thinking that the means is wrong.
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
February 10 2015 00:04 GMT
#32617
What I don't understand about this is, how is fighting for equal rights in marriage "the ends justify the means"? If anything people who continue to discriminate gay people by not granting them their marriage rights are breaking with the fundamental idea of treating everybody the same in front of the law. It's like defending racist law just by arguing that it's the law at the time. Opposing unjust legislation sounds pretty American to me.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
February 10 2015 00:19 GMT
#32618
On February 10 2015 08:41 Danglars wrote:
Every discussion on the topic I get into just in daily life shifts to the consequentialist "the ends justify the means." Universal, state-approved gay marriage is justice, so any injustice accrued by methods is forgiven at the end. You could found the opposite movement on the same "standards" of jurisprudence, and all it would take is justices that think the other way. It's a really radical view of government to condone the subversion (insomuch as it still functions) of proper jurisprudence and separation of powers for societal goals so long as those goals are achieved. Legislators are becoming bit players for writing laws these days.

consequentialism/realism >>>>>>>>>>>>>> formalism get rekt
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-10 00:27:44
February 10 2015 00:21 GMT
#32619
double post sorry
Who called in the fleet?
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24512 Posts
February 10 2015 00:26 GMT
#32620
I was wondering who was being pandered to with the whole "choice on vaccine" stuff from Republicans recently, now I have an even better idea

The Measles...Hoax?




"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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