On January 21 2012 23:02 Back wrote: - USA produces many of today's greatest scientists -> some redneck at wal-mart doesn't know the name of the continents (that's what counts)
It doesnt. Nearly all of the great scientists at American universities are foreign born and educated.
Even still, the fact that the education is good can't be a point AGAINST America.
Higher education and specialized formation has to be centered somewhere. America is convenient because it's big and has a lot of money. In general, the education in America (undergraduate) is about as good as in the rest of the world.
Btw, I really feel bad for all the French here thinking our educationnal system suck. I come from a poor family and am now in the best engineering school in France, being paid around 800€ a month just to study, without having anything to give back. Just because I proved through French examinations that I deserved it. I don't think there's a lot of countries where you have that kind of opportunities, and you can have access to the higher education in your country without ever having to pay anything.
Without ever having to pay anything ? When you come from a poor family maybe, because the French system regarding scholarship and taxe reduction is ludicrous, for the rest of us, one actually has to pay a bit. Not that much over the course of a year, admittedly, but still a decent amount.
I went into a pure public formation, elementary school, middle school, high school, classe préparatoire, Polytechnique. Never, ever, payed a single € for my formation. And I never had a scolarship.
But yeah, if you want to go to the university, the French educational system is not that awesome. It's way more centered around Grandes Écoles regarding scientific training (which is the formation usually used as a benchmark).
Yeah well, I went to classe préparatoire too, got one of the top engineering school as well. I have to pay for the yearly fees of the school, and I had to pay for the concours too. Like I said, not that much, but still something.
On January 21 2012 23:02 Back wrote: - USA produces many of today's greatest scientists -> some redneck at wal-mart doesn't know the name of the continents (that's what counts)
It doesnt. Nearly all of the great scientists at American universities are foreign born and educated.
Even still, the fact that the education is good can't be a point AGAINST America.
Higher education and specialized formation has to be centered somewhere. America is convenient because it's big and has a lot of money. In general, the education in America (undergraduate) is about as good as in the rest of the world.
Btw, I really feel bad for all the French here thinking our educationnal system suck. I come from a poor family and am now in the best engineering school in France, being paid around 800€ a month just to study, without having anything to give back. Just because I proved through French examinations that I deserved it. I don't think there's a lot of countries where you have that kind of opportunities, and you can have access to the higher education in your country without ever having to pay anything.
Without ever having to pay anything ? When you come from a poor family maybe, because the French system regarding scholarship and taxe reduction is ludicrous, for the rest of us, one actually has to pay a bit. Not that much over the course of a year, admittedly, but still a decent amount.
I went into a pure public formation, elementary school, middle school, high school, classe préparatoire, Polytechnique. Never, ever, payed a single € for my formation. And I never had a scolarship.
But yeah, if you want to go to the university, the French educational system is not that awesome. It's way more centered around Grandes Écoles regarding scientific training (which is the formation usually used as a benchmark).
On January 21 2012 23:10 Kukaracha wrote: Okay, so here's my "manly history" moment.
French are not cowards, in fact France has one of the most violent histories in the world, waging war after war against every neighbour, and even against most of Europe during Napoleonic times. It is utterly false to say that the french have a history of losing or retreating. In medieval times the english court spoke french as the ruling dynasty was Norman; the Frank kingdom was one of the most powerful at the time; and so was the French kingdom during the Renaissance, and during the Lumières, too. French patriots ousted all foreign troops when a coalition tried to restore the French royalty, while severely outnumbered. Historians have given France the nickname of the "European China", because of its huge population during medieval times. Even the 100-year war wasn't a conflict between France and England, but mostly between two dynasties, and the side of the Valois (France) was vastly outnumbered by the attacks of Burgandy, Brittany, Flanders and Portugal.
But the French army was humiliated during WW2, and even before that in 1870, and the peaceful statu quo carved this in stone. This is very bad for national pride, you know?
I always find it incredibly frustrating when people push forward the BS stereotype that the French are cowards and always lose. The French have probably had just as much conflict as any other European region, and I can only remember two wars that the French actually lost (Franco-Prussian and Napoleon's reign ended in defeat, but hell that doesn't even count as a loss). Not only that, France came up with the greatest military general in earth's history and the largest mainland European empire in the world's history (Napoleon the Great).
Actually having a bloody history is something negative in terms of manliness. Yeah I know that sounds like it doesn't make sense, but see it this way. Throughout history there have been badasses who nobody dared to fuck with, like the spartans in their hardcore period, although technically they've been constantly in war since they declared war every year on their slaves(yep). Or the Prussians, after the Soldier king modernized their army. That people wage wars on you actually just means that their leaders are idiots (French-Prussian-War) or that they think that they could win against you.
PS: Napoleon as the greatest military genius of the world?lol Oh and he was Italian(Corsica) and only rose so high because he was discriminated for being small and speaking with a weird accent as a child.
How is having a bloody history not manly. It means you can have some pride in your country that the land you're on was won with the blood of your ancestors.
The thing we learn from history is that everyone was ethnocentric and thought they were badasses who could wave their dicks around wherever they wanted. The Greeks thought they were badasses, until they got annexed by the Romans, who in turn crumbled when faced with the Barbarian invasions. The same can be said about Frederick the Great who ended up fighting something like a 2-3 front war or Napoleon who ventured into Russia and dared face the cold winters there, and let's not forget Hitler who had studied Napoleon's Russian campaign closely and still decided to attack deep into Russia knowing what happened.
Asking why the US hates France in general, which nobody has the answer to (because we dont, its one of those jokes that the world takes seriously.) except people in every other country knows exactly why we hate everything we do.
As many people have already said lots of french people are very rude and egocentric. I think many french people think they are better than everyone else. Refusing to speak any other language because their is superior etc. It pisses off a lot of people me included heh. Of course not everyone is like this and of course people like this exist in every country but for some reason it seems there are way more in France
I had french in high school and even my teacher who was such a fan of France, who went there often on holiday etc would even say stuff like this.
On January 22 2012 00:03 Lightwip wrote: Honestly, French are just fun to mock. No other reason for me.
this, 90% of people on the internet uses stereotypes for fun same way they use memes, its not because they find french people cowards, or any other reasons, its just because it sticked to it and its funny, internet.
Its like jokes about Poles, to be frank i dont care. Stereotype jokes are just like memes they kinda stick, and if they stick and are being used than it means many people who use them have to found them funny.
On January 21 2012 22:39 IntoTheheart wrote: They're just fun to bash due to their, "History," of retreating.
IIRC they haven't given up or retreated nearly as much as we make them out to.
Bashing us on WWII has always been pretty harsh.
Sure we were "known" for being the "best" military after the WWI and we should have kicked the Nazis asses when they came in the Ardennes but many things went wrong:
- We didn't really want to go to war after losing so much in the first WW - We didn't hear De Gaulle's appeal to increase the use of tanks instead of using infantry and old war tactics - We were arrogant and ignorant, thinking Hitler wouldn't go through the Ardennes Forest (thus, the ligne Maginot being useless)
Then, well, we got owned and had to go through occupation thanks to those Vichy bastards, Petain being the overmind.
Still, we helped our english allies get back safely to their island during the evacuation of Dunkirk, we had our own french resistance, sabotaging railroads, giving informations to GB, we tried to save jews (don't get me wrong, i'm not talking about the police who brought them into the Velodrome D'hiver and other concentration camps)
But we'll always be known for that war for surrendering, prefering not losing as much as in the first world war.
Good post. French jokes and bashing have been around longer than the tension surrounding the Iraq war, but they did become a lot more prevalent, harsh, and socially acceptable after that. It is in our media and schools. When I grew up I believed as I had been taught in public school. The French had acted cowardly and surrendered in WWII, and the Allies had to bail them out. It wasn't until I studied the war independently during high school that I learned the true events, they simply are not taught here. The education system is heavily American. It is always as if we are reading an autobiography of our nation. Every war, movement, and event is framed in an "I" or "we" perspective, and it poisons the attitudes we have towards other nations. Don't get me wrong, the jokes against the French are largely harmless and based in comedy, but they are a learned behavior in some parts of the country. It raises that ignorant sentiment of French cowardice that some people never grow out of, even people vying to lead our country.
(For more reading regarding the points made in the quoted post, see Marc Bloch's Strange Defeat, very good account)
here is a question for you OP: have you noticed that the people from GB are known for their bashing on germans? Even though France/Poland may have so much more reasons to hate on germany for WW2 (and a lot more history of killing each other, especially with France), we get along pretty well. But british media/people from Britain always open pandoras World War box and how all Germans are bad and Nazis and what not else. Is there a logical explanation why Britains hate on Germans more than any other country? Not really, at least not in my eyes.
So about the American-France-thing: Aside from me personally believing in the american school system (and most other school systems of other countries as well, for that matter) fails on political backgrounds for both world wars, americans don't have a straight connection to france (for example, in my humble opinion americans tend to side with Germany because they helped us with the whole communism-Russia-Berlin-country-divided-thing). Furthermore, French seems to remind americans of Canada, and americans seem to like to make fun of Canada.
On January 21 2012 23:10 Kukaracha wrote: Okay, so here's my "manly history" moment.
French are not cowards, in fact France has one of the most violent histories in the world, waging war after war against every neighbour, and even against most of Europe during Napoleonic times. It is utterly false to say that the french have a history of losing or retreating. In medieval times the english court spoke french as the ruling dynasty was Norman; the Frank kingdom was one of the most powerful at the time; and so was the French kingdom during the Renaissance, and during the Lumières, too. French patriots ousted all foreign troops when a coalition tried to restore the French royalty, while severely outnumbered. Historians have given France the nickname of the "European China", because of its huge population during medieval times. Even the 100-year war wasn't a conflict between France and England, but mostly between two dynasties, and the side of the Valois (France) was vastly outnumbered by the attacks of Burgandy, Brittany, Flanders and Portugal.
But the French army was humiliated during WW2, and even before that in 1870, and the peaceful statu quo carved this in stone. This is very bad for national pride, you know?
I always find it incredibly frustrating when people push forward the BS stereotype that the French are cowards and always lose. The French have probably had just as much conflict as any other European region, and I can only remember two wars that the French actually lost (Franco-Prussian and Napoleon's reign ended in defeat, but hell that doesn't even count as a loss). Not only that, France came up with the greatest military general in earth's history and the largest mainland European empire in the world's history (Napoleon the Great).
Actually having a bloody history is something negative in terms of manliness. Yeah I know that sounds like it doesn't make sense, but see it this way. Throughout history there have been badasses who nobody dared to fuck with, like the spartans in their hardcore period, although technically they've been constantly in war since they declared war every year on their slaves(yep). Or the Prussians, after the Soldier king modernized their army. That people wage wars on you actually just means that their leaders are idiots (French-Prussian-War) or that they think that they could win against you.
PS: Napoleon as the greatest military genius of the world?lol Oh and he was Italian(Corsica) and only rose so high because he was discriminated for being small and speaking with a weird accent as a child.
How is having a bloody history not manly. It means you can have some pride in your country that the land you're on was won with the blood of your ancestors.
The thing we learn from history is that everyone was ethnocentric and thought they were badasses who could wave their dicks around wherever they wanted. The Greeks thought they were badasses, until they got annexed by the Romans, who in turn crumbled when faced with the Barbarian invasions. The same can be said about Frederick the Great who ended up fighting something like a 2-3 front war or Napoleon who ventured into Russia and dared face the cold winters there, and let's not forget Hitler who had studied Napoleon's Russian campaign closely and still decided to attack deep into Russia knowing what happened.
Didn't I awnser that question in the post you quoted 0.o? Of course wars are usually considered manly, you're just even more manly when you're so manly that nobody dares to wage war on you.
Correct me on my history but since the americain revolution was against the british, france sent navel support to america and actually played a huge role in the success of the americain revolution.
it actually goes both ways becuase the aiding of the state is also one of the thing that bankrupt frances monarch(amung a huge list of other thing ) witch ultamently led to the frensh revolution. Consepts of free citizens and equal rights where also brought back to france from the soldiers and added to the powder cage under the frensh people who lived in famin under the monarch
France is a really cool place (Paris and the Louvre were amazing) but i have to admit, i didn't find the Country very welcoming, at least compared to the lots of other nations I've been to. Maybe it's just because of the pointless bickering between the 2 nations, but it was pretty shocking, tbh. Like they blatantly had disdain for anyone American and would be open about it (in French). Sadly for them one of us spoke french fluently so it wasn't that much of a secret...
On January 22 2012 00:20 DannyJ wrote: France is a really cool place (Paris and the Louvre were amazing) but i have to admit, i didn't find the Country very welcoming, at least compared to the lots of other nations I've been to. Maybe it's just because of the pointless bickering between the 2 nations, but it was pretty shocking, tbh. Like they blatantly had disdain for anyone American and would be open about it (in French). Sadly for them one of us spoke french fluently so it wasn't that much of a secret...
I was chasen by drunk young french guys along with my friends near tour eiffel just because we said we are italian. Then u can get robbed or stabbed at any angle in the city and it's really difficult to communicate. Going to Paris is always a shitty experience. I have to say though that most french people I know are awesome people. I think the language barrier is too much for that country and overall Paris is one of the worst cities to visit as a tourist.
WOW! I browsed the first few replies and it was nothing but america bashing! Odd how that turns out.
So, this is the way it is, people are people. They tell stupid jokes and say dumb things. They think that any culture that isn't their own is weird, because to them, it is. But, I can tell you there is just as much America bashing or black bashing, or redneck bashing, republican bashing, liberal bashing, etc. The French and Americans get along well even if they don't see eye to eye on every issue, I don't see it ever turning into anything but an amicable and mutually prosperous relationship between the countries. Bashing is bashing. It is harmless poking fun at someone for being different than you. It's juvenile, but also puerile.
Some people may mean it to be aggressive, if so, they are ignorant. But, any time you stereotype an entire people it's ignorant. Just let them have their fun and keep calling them fat radicals or whatever. Street goes both ways and it's pretty bullshit if you say ignorant shit jokingly, then take offense when it comes back around <3 everyone and chill!!
On January 22 2012 00:04 Scarecrow wrote: The Americans and French seem to be the two most arrogant, nationalistic nations when it comes to their tourists. I dont find it that surprising that the Americans hate the only other nation as obnoxious as themselves. Of course these are generalisations and there are many intelligent, quiet-spoken americans/french. I have friends from both countries after all. It's just that every other nationality i've run into seem, on average, to be less full of themselves.
Don't be hating on America! All Americans love Australia I think. The fucking Outback man. If I could move anywhere in the world it would probably be Australia after that I would probably go with Iceland or another Nordic Country. I think i got Nordic ancestry blonde hair blue eyes 6'2 =/. Either way were not all arrogant in America lol. Also Crocodile Dundee is a great movie thanks Australia. This topic makes me want some baby back ribs and French fries. Oh ya.
On January 22 2012 00:20 DannyJ wrote: France is a really cool place (Paris and the Louvre were amazing) but i have to admit, i didn't find the Country very welcoming, at least compared to the lots of other nations I've been to. Maybe it's just because of the pointless bickering between the 2 nations, but it was pretty shocking, tbh. Like they blatantly had disdain for anyone American and would be open about it (in French). Sadly for them one of us spoke french fluently so it wasn't that much of a secret...
I was chasen by drunk young french guys along with my friends near tour eiffel just because we said we are italian. Then u can get robbed or stabbed at any angle in the city and it's really difficult to communicate. Going to Paris is always a shitty experience. I have to say though that most french people I know are awesome people. I think the language barrier is too much for that country and overall Paris is one of the worst cities to visit as a tourist.
Haha you're not in Champigny or Aulnay-Sous-Bois man. Ok there are pickpockets in the tube. But you don't get stab for no reason. And drunk people, where ever they are from, are always stupid. Plus you could fight back, drunk guys are not really effective at fighting
Actually the thread was more about the political bashing, but I must have not been explicit enough :D
i live in the U.S and i can assure you, no there is not anti-france ralleys and people walking down the street cursing at frenchman. the common stereotype for french is that they are arrogent and stuck up, but w/e every race/religion/nationality has a sterotype pinned to them so who the fuck cares really?
EPT
