PvZ: Stargate opening or Robo opening ? - Page 2

Mastermind

Canada7096 Posts

October 16 2010 04:55 GMT

#21

OP, why are you assuming that robo and stargate are the only openings? I usually open 3gate and put a bit of pressure on while expanding. Then I usually go for colossus, but sometimes I go templar. I usually dont actually attack until I am on 2bases, unless the zerg is asking for it because he has inadequate defense or did a shitty attack that failed and I decide to counter. The 3gate opening allows you to put pressure on to force him to make units and some may mistake it for 4gate which will hurt their econ even more because they will really cut drones. It depends , but usually after the pressure I fall back to my expo and may add some cannons and start +1 attack. Once my tech is up I will try a strong 2base push. After that continue teching, upgrading and take a third.

Warrior Madness

Canada3791 Posts

October 16 2010 05:15 GMT

#22

I really don't know how the patch will affect my favourite build in the long term (15 nexus). But with the roach range buff at least it seems like it will be terribly hard to defend a 15 nexus on unwallable maps. Probably have to skip the stargate in order to defend against a roach attack.

But yeah ideally I like to open with 15 nexus, get a stargate asap. Pump out about 3-5 phoenixes and harass the zerg's main. A stargate opening does a lot of things. It gives you a bit of map control early on. Scouting info. You can pick off drones possibly a queen. Force the zerg user to make some spores/hydras and you can of course deter them from making mutas. If they're being really stubborn with mutas I'll make a second stargate and pump out as many as i can or I"ll just mass an enourmous ground army with a few extra phoenixes and push.

My follow up is usually collosus. Sometimes I like to follow it up with DTs into HT or just plain HTs, cause theyre fun.

Shifft

Canada1085 Posts

October 16 2010 05:45 GMT

#23

In my opinion, teching stargate first is better if you're blind, but if you scout early roaches robo can be better. If he's going mutas you really want phoenixes out early and ground armies usually give you a bigger timing window to mass up gateway units to defend.

PuercoPop

Peru277 Posts

October 16 2010 06:07 GMT

#24

And if the Z goes 14 hatch 14 pool? After failing to harass with 2 zealots and 1 stalker out of my 1 gate 1 core opening I've been experimenting with moderate success with 3 Gate Council + Charge Zealot Heavy Comp. Getting before the spire, not by much, but enough as to the mutas don't present a problem with the few stalkers + the reinforcements.

ccJroy

United States483 Posts

October 16 2010 06:39 GMT

#25

I personally open a few diff ways that doesnt limit my ability to fight off muta/ling or roach/hydra.

Personally with Robo openings you limit your ability to fight muta/ling.

When you open stargate you limit your ability to fight roach/hydra.

When i play PvZ i either do one of 2 things, in close positions i open 2-3 gate expand (~35-50 food depending on a few factors, expansion timing, pool timing, ect ect) and then forge/hallucination (started right after WG) and then react to spire or hydra den.
In long positions i tend to favor a 1-2 gate FE (28-30 food expansion) and basically play it like a PvT FE by chrono'ing a crap ton of units outta the one gate and then add 3-4+whichever tech you need (hallucinate to find out).

Two things you need to watch out for: early pool (NO CRAP RIGHT?), a 6-9 pool will need at least a second gate or a forge, and the second thing is no expansion. Against my practice partner whenever i see 0 expansion in close position (Hes usually a macro player, great zerg player), bells start ringing, and loud. If i dont prepare for a roach rush/super heavy lings, then im dead.

I never try to open "X to X to X" because i feel you can catch yourself doing a certain build regardless of scouting/playing blind.

Just my 2 cents. Everyone will have their opinion, this is just mine. I think forge expansions are a bit too greedy as Yaotzin said due to the new roach range, need at least 2/3 cannons just to be safe.

althaz

Australia1001 Posts

October 16 2010 06:44 GMT

#26

Since the roach buff I'm Robo opening because 1 immortal DESTROYS infinity roaches basically. I usually push with my 1st 2 zealots and my 1st Stalker and I lose the zealots instantly if he has built a handful of roaches but by the time my stalker gets back to my base followed by his army my Immortal is out (as well as some more gateway units) to totally destroy his roaches and if he has expanded allow me to expand pretty easily.

Tasty.280

United States21 Posts

October 16 2010 06:56 GMT

#27

I used to go Stargate a lot against zerg for the phoenixes to harass and kill some drones and queens. Now I get about 2 voidrays and push with those, which seems to work nicely against ling/roach obviously. At 1300+ diamond I get called cheesey and I upset zerg players. I didn't know that was cheese, it was even with a late stargate..

Barca

United States418 Posts

October 16 2010 07:03 GMT

#28

Opening with Twilight is pretty versatile against Zerg (blink, temps, DTs, fast chargelots), I'm surprised that wasn't added to the poll/OP.

Danglars

United States12133 Posts

October 16 2010 07:13 GMT

#29

Attack with 4 phoenix, 5th rallied to the group. Kill queens, overlords, and drones (and SCOUT).

Mutas are a pain and this opening gives me the most options against zerg spire opening. Expand behind phoenix and cannon natural if I'm expecting a roach/hydra push b4 HT or colo.

comes from a 1200 toss

JeanLuc

Canada377 Posts

October 16 2010 07:16 GMT

#30

Recently I've been having some success going 1 gate 1 forge 1 stargate then expanding at first possible opportunity. Phoenix can be used to scout/harass, frankly phoenix is a better scout vs zerg than observer because it covers ground so much quicker, can slay isolated overlords, and detection is not usually a big issue/ can be covered by one cannon defending both natural and the ramp to your main. vs roach rush you can force field and get out 1 or 2 void rays. if you are harrassing with phoenix, villian probably goes hydras at which point you go blink stalkers off of two bases, expand to 3rd + add tech based on what he's getting. blink stalkers are so solid as backbone of any PvZ army, you can add HTs, DTs, collosus or phoenix to the core of mass upgraded blink stalkers and it usually works great.

TwentyAPM

United States17 Posts

October 16 2010 07:21 GMT

#31

I open SG most maps but stalker is very viable once you survive to blink and a large amount. Should really be part of the poll as many have mentioned.

Severedevil

United States4839 Posts

October 16 2010 07:29 GMT

#32

Void Rays rock the hell out of Roaches. I may just blindly get a Void Ray before any Phoenixes now that Roaches are more powerful. (I prefer to get Phoenixes first normally, to build up more mana.)

Keilah

731 Posts

October 16 2010 07:39 GMT

#33

Probably good to try to keep your scouting probe alive long enough to determine if he's going roaches, and keep finding ways to poke in until you get a flying unit to see his base directly.

I think if we fast expo as toss, we'll need to build the cannons naked/outside the wall unless we fear a ling rush, because the building wall is now useless vs roaches. I don't know if that makes FE unviable or not.

vol_

Australia1608 Posts

October 16 2010 07:40 GMT

#34

There needs to be a poll option for "I make over 9000 warpgates only."

prodiG

Canada2016 Posts

October 16 2010 07:46 GMT

#35

I love opening 3gate stargate, spamming phoenixes, expanding and going templar because:

1) overlords die and generate zerg tears
2) can keep mutas at bay or even beat them if your phoenix count gets high enough
3) more often than not forces my opponent to make hydras which SUCK against storm
4) phoenixes are baller
5) i can handle roach or ultralisk switches by chronoing some voids and making sure they stay alive

versus robotics which

1) lets me make observers (cool)
2) warp prism harass E: (dat harass)
3) immortals for roach or ultra techswitch
4) colossus force corruptor tech switch which don't die to my big game ending unit colossus nor high templar
5) i need to make robotics support bay and thus will delay my charge and or blink upgrades

all in all
Stargate ftw.

EdBickel

United States9 Posts

October 16 2010 08:02 GMT

#36

On October 16 2010 12:12 Raislin wrote:

Show nested quote +

Simply building a stargate puts more control into your hands. The problem with stargate opening is how do we Protoss most effectively utilize that Stargate? I don't like Void Rays in this matchup because Phoenix are what shut down Mutalisks, allow you to scout effortlessly and harass annoyingly.

However, too many Phoenix becomes an auto-loss. That's why I'm toying with a two gate, one Stargate opening with 3ish Phoenix, lots of Zealots and enough Stalkers/Sentry to allow me to spend my gas and expand. I need more games to learn more about timings and weaknesses. The strengths are definitely quite apparent.

Ya i like to do this put i start with a quick VR. Sentry/zealot and expo and pump phoenixes all the while. It works quite well most of the time.

asmo.0

Norway318 Posts

October 16 2010 08:36 GMT

#37

I find stargate openings to be a bit strangely balanced. If they commit a lot, as in more than 1 void ray / 3 pheonixes, I can generally just go and kill em with hydras if they didnt do much damage. However, if I CANT go kill them I'm a bit screwed.
Past the early midgame, hydras are very very scary to have a lot of in pvz as you will always face storms or colossus or both. I prefer roach+corruptor, even if its not as effective at dealing the damage it at least friggin survives for more than 5 seconds.

FE -> colossus is definitally the strongest though I believe. But pheonixes -> delayed stormtech can also be quite effective as long as you commit too much

MeLo

Australia192 Posts

October 16 2010 09:07 GMT

#38

Stargate.

Why?

95% of my PvZ wins goes like this:
- 2 gate opening.
- 3-4 zealots rush/harass zerg expo or kill some lings.
- At the same time build core, research warp, get stalkers.
- Zerg at this point either expands or get roaches.
- Drop a stargate. Chronoboost Void Rays.
- Stalker + Zealot + Void Ray army vs. Lings + Roaches + Queens + Spines. gg.

I'd even post replays if anyone asks.

sleepingdog

Austria6145 Posts

October 16 2010 09:13 GMT

#39

how about I'm diamond and I open with twilight council (when I not FE) because blink-stalkers are awsome?

Severedevil

United States4839 Posts

October 16 2010 09:35 GMT

#40

1 base Robo + Stargate is also possible. Combining drops with aerial raiding? Never gets old.

And you're in a very good position to tech Colossus to counter the hydras you force, after you expand.

On October 16 2010 18:13 sleepingdog wrote:
how about I'm diamond and I open with twilight council (when I not FE) because blink-stalkers are awsome?

It's my strong impression that 1 base Twilight Council is a fundamentally suboptimal. Until you have a large number of units, 300/250 (or 350/300) is too much $$$ for a single upgrade, even one as powerful as Charge/Blink. For that price, I'd much rather take my nat.

I'm a big fan of the +1 Air Weapons upgrade because it's only 100/100 and you don't have to buy a new building to research it. (Forge +1 Weapons is also a bargain, if you have a use for cannons.)

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