https://tl.net/tlpd/korean/leagues/735_2010_Bacchus_OSL/games

He didn't beat anyone tho except a ... ZvZ vs Hydra

If you're saying modesty was better than rock or backho... sure. Damning w/ faint praise. Was he ever elo'd t30 back in the day?

And 2014 was a BW nadir.

Dazed.

Canada3301 Posts

May 06 2019 17:11 GMT

#43

On May 07 2019 02:01 KamMoye wrote:
https://tl.net/tlpd/korean/leagues/735_2010_Bacchus_OSL/games

He didn't beat anyone tho except a ... ZvZ vs Hydra

If you're saying modesty was better than rock or backho... sure. Damning w/ faint praise. Was he ever elo'd t30 back in the day?

And 2014 was a BW nadir.

Didnt beat anyone? Fantasy, kal, skyhigh and pure [skyhigh was quite good, and iirc pure was still in decent form]. It was a respectable run. The difference one should expect from a player of modestys caliber and background simply is more than someone like Miso.

Ideas

United States8171 Posts

May 06 2019 18:37 GMT

#44

Just saying that making a semifinals of an OSL ain't nothing. He also made it out of his Ro16 group in the OSL after that (lost to hydra 1-2 in the Ro8) . I'm not a huge modesty fan at all but he was no B-teamer.

KamMoye

United States721 Posts

May 07 2019 00:34 GMT

#45

He did beat Fantasy in a bo1. Pure and skyhigh were bo3s, sure. But they weren't good players. Kal used to be great, but iirc after his semis or finals run he was never the sams and his career fell apart quickly. Dont remember what ahape he was in when modesty beat him. If he was in t10 shape, fine, sure, even a bo1 over two t10-type players is impressive.

Skyhigh a vT sniper, Pure career sub-40% winrate vs Zerg. Give a mediocre player enough opportunities over acareer and they'll have one or two shining moments, sure. But look at the bracket. He won a bo1 over Fantasy and beat a couple of his mediocre B-listers. Variance.

When was he top 30? Kespa was pretty stacked. Modesty got regularly deployed in proleague on one of the worst teams, sure. Almost never made any noise, and it was never sustainable.

A list type players back then:

Bogus, stats, roro, hydra, zero, best, stork, bisu, flash, mind, sea, leta, jaedong, effort, calm... I'm getting lazy but I could name another 15 players. even dudes like yellow/july/fbh were more reliable up until the very end. For the record I consider roro the gatekeeper of what was A lister. He was the definition of a super solid, super boring standard macro Zerg who rarely lost to people below him and rarely beat t8 talent.

God I just spent way too much time thinking about modesty

Id be surprised if modesty had a > winrate than miso, either over the past two years or over the next two

Dazed.

Canada3301 Posts

May 07 2019 02:10 GMT

#46

On May 07 2019 09:34 KamMoye wrote:
He did beat Fantasy in a bo1. Pure and skyhigh were bo3s, sure. But they weren't good players. Kal used to be great, but iirc after his semis or finals run he was never the sams and his career fell apart quickly. Dont remember what ahape he was in when modesty beat him. If he was in t10 shape, fine, sure, even a bo1 over two t10-type players is impressive.

Skyhigh a vT sniper, Pure career sub-40% winrate vs Zerg. Give a mediocre player enough opportunities over acareer and they'll have one or two shining moments, sure. But look at the bracket. He won a bo1 over Fantasy and beat a couple of his mediocre B-listers. Variance.

When was he top 30? Kespa was pretty stacked. Modesty got regularly deployed in proleague on one of the worst teams, sure. Almost never made any noise, and it was never sustainable.

A list type players back then:

Bogus, stats, roro, hydra, zero, best, stork, bisu, flash, mind, sea, leta, jaedong, effort, calm... I'm getting lazy but I could name another 15 players. even dudes like yellow/july/fbh were more reliable up until the very end. For the record I consider roro the gatekeeper of what was A lister. He was the definition of a super solid, super boring standard macro Zerg who rarely lost to people below him and rarely beat t8 talent.

God I just spent way too much time thinking about modesty

Id be surprised if modesty had a > winrate than miso, either over the past two years or over the next two

Pure was a solid A team player at the time, on the cusp of being a top 5 protoss. Skyhigh was actually a solid terran player at the time, his decline came later and was sharp. No ones trying to debate that modesty was this great player, but he was a solid kespa player who got fairly regular play in proleague, he did, in fact, make it fairly deep in a league. You can make excuses for any run, the fact is he did it, he beat legitimate players on stage in macro games.

Ideas

United States8171 Posts

May 07 2019 04:15 GMT

#47

I remember being pretty bummed that modesty beat Kal in that Ro8 match. I was (and will always be haha) a huge Kal fan and he was heavily favored against Modesty. But damn you can never trust team-kill situations like that in Starleagues, sometimes the "worse" player is just able to get into the other better player's head and know exactly how to dismantle them (like forgg taking out JD in the arena MSL or fantasy destroying bisu in the batoo OSL). He also lost to Great in the MSL Ro8 around the same time and pretty much slumped pretty hard after that, never really recovering before the end of kespa :\

Sorry this is turning into a Kal nostalgia post but damn I love that guy, he had the most fun shuttle play to watch in the entire world. He pretty much always came up short when the pressure was on against true S-class players, but he was consistent as hell for years. Apparently according to liquipedia he won the Protoss player of the year award in 2010?! Kal rules, too bad he didn't come back to BW (apparently he had a botched chin surgery?)