Curses! Another prediction failed. I could do some kind of self-reflection, but duty calls way too soon, and this match is probably the most important I've ever made a thread on with the possible exception of KT vs. STX. First, lets look at the maps. Set 1: < Empire of the Sun > Set 2: < Grand Line SE > Set 3: < Circuit Breaker > Set 4: < Aztec > Set 5: < Fortress > Set 6: < Benzene > Ace Match: < Central Plains >
You might notice that there is no Icarus, but even more importantly, the Ace match is on the PvP heaven Central Plains. While forGG continues to be played on Fortress, no other map specific players can be noted, but Grand Line SE usually delivers big scale TvT-s or TvP-s. So, depending on whether Stars decide to snipe Flash or to avoid him, Grand Line SE and Benzene are probably the best maps to do so. Really could also potentially be sniped by Action on those maps, but Aztec might turn out to be an epic PvP this time around, considering the maps current stats.
As I am TL's resident Kim Carrier apparently, lets start off with the prediction that Woongjin Stars will win if it doesn't go to ace, and KT rolster have a slightly better chance to win if it does. Since that is not a proper prediction, I'll predict stars to have an advantage. Violet, fOrGG, and Action don't feel as solid as the Stars lineup, and while Really and flying have problems of their own, the shortcomings don't feel as severe because there is less pressure on them. Therefore I think that it will be at least difficult to reach an ACE match, and unlike any other ACE match, KT is not as strongly favored, because Stars pretty much expect Stats and Free can practise accordingly. So, in total Stars win either 4-2 or 4-3. + Show Spoiler +
On November 10 2010 04:07 Iplaythings wrote: Nice banner :O Neo G soulkey and zero, the glass zergs will be fun to watch crumble at the hands of stats and flash :D
come on stars! Free, Zero, Soulkey, and Piano are gonna take this. Woonjin has a very strong set of 4 or 5 players, i really think they have the potential to win PL this year.
On November 10 2010 06:54 Rkie wrote: come on stars! Free, Zero, Soulkey, and Piano are gonna take this. Woonjin has a very strong set of 4 or 5 players, i really think they have the potential to win PL this year.
lol you use strong set of players and Piano in the same sentence
I agree with the other three, but Piano is nothing lol. And Really is too inconsistent.
Let's see... Stars have Free, Zero and the new hope of Zerg, Soulkey. But KT has Stats, ForGG, Action, and the Fifth Bonjwa. This will be a close one, but eventually KT will win due to the power of the turtle god.
I've been waiting for this match for a long time... I love this season's Stars team, but not as much as I love KT (and Flash!) If you remember what Soulkey said in an recent interview,
>Soulkey: It wasn't so much the maps as my grasp of ZvT. Next time we play KT, I hope to face up against Flash, but it doesn't really matter who I play. [T/N unsure of that last part]
flash vs soulkey could indeed be very entertaining
On November 10 2010 07:36 AlBundy wrote: I've been waiting for this match for a long time... I love this season's Stars team, but not as much as I love KT (and Flash!) If you remember what Soulkey said in an recent interview,
>Soulkey: It wasn't so much the maps as my grasp of ZvT. Next time we play KT, I hope to face up against Flash, but it doesn't really matter who I play. [T/N unsure of that last part]
flash vs soulkey could indeed be very entertaining
It is interesting to note that Soulkey has recently beaten Fantasy and Sea, who are the 2nd and 3rd best Terran in the world. With those wins he is qualified to enter the Turtle temple and face the God himself.
I'm sure if they have the chance to play each other it will be a very interesting match.
On November 10 2010 04:45 Holgerius wrote: Should be plenty of cool games here. ^__^ I want to see Flash vs Soulkey.
I want to see free vs Flash on Central Plains
Massive map imba - the only way Free could stand a chance vs Flash. Oh, and proxy 2 Gate vs Proxy Rax too I guess. But ya, it could be a really cool game. ^__^ There are so many potentially awesome match-ups between these teams.
On November 10 2010 12:59 prototype. wrote: Where did all this soulkey hype come from?
Every non-stars fans realized how badass soulkey is when he started stomping everyone in proleague (of course stars fans already knew how much of a badass soulkey is)
Hoejja with a massive attack but Zero holds! Zero is only on 1 base though, he needs to win it soon or else he has no chance. Zero pushing Hoejja's main, microing very well!
This is.. a strange zvz. I can't remember the last time I've seen a zvz where it seemed like one person should have been dead like 3 times already but is still surviving somehow
Flash adding 5th barrack. Soulkey does a decent surround and relieves the pressure. Flash sending couple marines to Soulkey's 3rd. Soulkey has hive finished but no drones at main. Flash defends with 2 stimbunker, Soulkey's lurkers melt. Soulkey GG'S
Did Flash even scan Soulkey's main with one of his first scans? We saw the scan at the nat go off, but did he use his second somewhere else on the map?
On November 10 2010 13:50 swanized wrote: well HAD this gone to lategame soulkey would had raped FLash so hard...
Flash is always the favorite late game.
ALWAYS
Actually Flash is pretty much the favorite at all times, but mostly late game.
No. Jae owning FlaSh in late game 90% of time.
Flash has beaten Jaedong in the lategame in the majority of games this year. After last season you can't say Jae really owns Flash at anything -- Flash is the first player ever to really have the dong's number.
On November 10 2010 13:51 okum wrote: Soulkey misunderstood the purpose of lurker openings. It's the other guy who's supposed to get his bases raided & contained.
If he allowed flash to attack him, he would've lost his expo and main. Trading bases is very risky, because usually in that situation, terran wins.
On November 10 2010 13:53 AppleTart wrote: Wow i just can't believe he killed that much stuff with that one control group. That control is just perfection o-o
He did the same in his first game. Nothing new, why Soulkey again go lurk opening. =/
(Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): Check it out if you have time.
How the hell did people recommend that? That was one of the most 1 sided games I've ever seen :S
1: Flash fans.
2: seriously, did your jaw not drop at that marine control? I was utterly shocked. I saw Flash move out against 4 lurkers and 20 lings and thought he was gonna get crushed and have to do his famous last stand moments.
Though, I think Flash knew lurkers were coming when he scanned him making lings. He scans right when 2 hatch mutas should be hatching and saw lings being made, so he probably knew when he moved out.
That game was fucking fantastic despite being short. I'd definitely recommend it. It wasn't one of those games where one player fucked up massively and just failed (although the strategy he chose wasn't very wise), it was simply Flash showing off his ridiculous bonjwa level skills. Holy fuck.
On November 10 2010 13:50 swanized wrote: well HAD this gone to lategame soulkey would had raped FLash so hard...
Flash is always the favorite late game.
ALWAYS
Actually Flash is pretty much the favorite at all times, but mostly late game.
No. Jae owning FlaSh in late game 90% of time.
No, he doesn't, he didn't, and he won't. Double gold, get over it.
Anyways, back to the game. That was embarrassing. Lurker opening gets raped by marine agression... it doesn't get more one-sided than that (well, maybe 2hatch muta getting beaten by an SCV rush). SK was outclassed.
(Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): Check it out if you have time.
How the hell did people recommend that? That was one of the most 1 sided games I've ever seen :S
Onesided games can be really good from 1 player. This was one of those instances. It also showcased great micro.
In the same sense though Skylar you know those really bad games that drag on forever because both players fail but it's roughly equal because they both fail? =)
Man I can't believe I missed this game. DST completely sniped me by surprise.
Admittedly, though, I do think Soulkey would've done better in a lategame situation. His lategame ZvT has been shown to be consistent and impressive. He wouldn't have won, though. Not against Flash and not on grandline.
On November 10 2010 13:54 Grobyc wrote: How the hell did people recommend that? That was one of the most 1 sided games I've ever seen :S
Perfect marine medic micro. One control group of marines vs 5 lurkers and like 12+ lings? Soulkey didn't make any huge blunders too just got caught out of position for a couple seconds and that was all Flash needed to destroy his whole base. Extremely impressive.
Also I seriously just want to point at games like this and fucking cram it in the face of people who say Flash just turtles alot. He is the absolute goddamn best at aggressive, risky plays and does them successfully more than anyone else.
On November 10 2010 13:50 swanized wrote: well HAD this gone to lategame soulkey would had raped FLash so hard...
Flash is always the favorite late game.
ALWAYS
Actually Flash is pretty much the favorite at all times, but mostly late game.
No. Jae owning FlaSh in late game 90% of time.
No, he doesn't, he didn't, and he won't. Double gold, get over it.
Anyways, back to the game. That was embarrassing. Lurker opening gets raped by marine agression... it doesn't get more one-sided than that (well, maybe 2hatch muta getting beaten by an SCV rush). SK was outclassed.
What? Flash won vs Jae only if he fast kill 3rd gas.
I was gonna make an epic post about how this was not really one-sided but soulkey just got caught in the worst possible spot, then realized woongjin to KT tags ratio is 20:1
anyways well done Flash, we'll see how you do vs soulkey in the Ace
On November 10 2010 13:50 swanized wrote: well HAD this gone to lategame soulkey would had raped FLash so hard...
Flash is always the favorite late game.
ALWAYS
Actually Flash is pretty much the favorite at all times, but mostly late game.
No. Jae owning FlaSh in late game 90% of time.
No, he doesn't, he didn't, and he won't. Double gold, get over it.
Anyways, back to the game. That was embarrassing. Lurker opening gets raped by marine agression... it doesn't get more one-sided than that (well, maybe 2hatch muta getting beaten by an SCV rush). SK was outclassed.
What? Flash won vs Jae only if he fast kill 3rd gas.
Um, 3 gas zerg is hive stage. That's lategame, mate. Also, Flash's most recent wins against Jaedong included lategame ones in WCG.
On November 10 2010 14:01 bearbuddy wrote: damnit SK, that was kinda disappointing. Got caught with his pants down and a wide open main and let Flash establish a better position.
there it's not like it was a total fucking rape, soulkey just got caught wit his pants down
On November 10 2010 14:01 swanized wrote: I was gonna make an epic post about how this was not really one-sided but soulkey just got caught in the worst possible spot, then realized woongjin to KT tags ratio is 20:1
anyways well done Flash, we'll see how you do vs soulkey in the Ace
He could have dropped a sunk or 2 imo but he was "too cool for school"
Mmmm I'd still give it a "check out if you have time" just because of the marine micro. It was really impressive no doubt, and definitely should be used in a highlight video or something, but you don't really know what to expect if you haven't seen the game and you check the recommended games section of an OP and see just a poll saying to watch it. Personally, I just wouldn't have been impressed enough after watching it if I had not seen it before :S
On November 10 2010 13:50 swanized wrote: well HAD this gone to lategame soulkey would had raped FLash so hard...
Flash is always the favorite late game.
ALWAYS
Actually Flash is pretty much the favorite at all times, but mostly late game.
No. Jae owning FlaSh in late game 90% of time.
No, he doesn't, he didn't, and he won't. Double gold, get over it.
Anyways, back to the game. That was embarrassing. Lurker opening gets raped by marine agression... it doesn't get more one-sided than that (well, maybe 2hatch muta getting beaten by an SCV rush). SK was outclassed.
What? Flash won vs Jae only if he fast kill 3rd gas.
okay. Those PR and Odd-Eye games didn't happen. Think what you will.
On November 10 2010 14:04 Grobyc wrote: Mmmm I'd still give it a "check out if you have time" just because of the marine micro. It was really impressive no doubt, and definitely should be used in a highlight video or something, but you don't really know what to expect if you haven't seen the game and you check the recommended games section of an OP and see just a poll saying to watch it. Personally, I just wouldn't have been impressed enough after watching it if I had not seen it before :S
That's what the "Personal recommendations" part is for.
On November 10 2010 13:50 swanized wrote: well HAD this gone to lategame soulkey would had raped FLash so hard...
Flash is always the favorite late game.
ALWAYS
Actually Flash is pretty much the favorite at all times, but mostly late game.
No. Jae owning FlaSh in late game 90% of time.
No, he doesn't, he didn't, and he won't. Double gold, get over it.
Anyways, back to the game. That was embarrassing. Lurker opening gets raped by marine agression... it doesn't get more one-sided than that (well, maybe 2hatch muta getting beaten by an SCV rush). SK was outclassed.
What? Flash won vs Jae only if he fast kill 3rd gas.
Um, 3 gas zerg is hive stage. That's lategame, mate. Also, Flash's most recent wins against Jaedong included lategame ones in WCG.
WCG was like training games. And Jae won on Tau Cross in late game.
On November 10 2010 13:54 Grobyc wrote: How the hell did people recommend that? That was one of the most 1 sided games I've ever seen :S
Perfect marine medic micro. One control group of marines vs 5 lurkers and like 12+ lings? Soulkey didn't make any huge blunders too just got caught out of position for a couple seconds and that was all Flash needed to destroy his whole base. Extremely impressive.
While I would never call Flash's micro bad, it's not as impressive as you make it seem. Lurkers don't have that long range, and take a while to burrow and unborrow--as soon as Flash had his marine group where it was there's basically no way Soulkey could have gotten his lurkers into position to actually kill the marine group until there is literally no place left to run.
T_T Soulkey. Ah well, caught in a bad spot and against that utterly insane marine control what can you do? Would have liked to see what kind of a fight my man could have put up late game against Flash though.
On November 10 2010 14:01 swanized wrote: I was gonna make an epic post about how this was not really one-sided but soulkey just got caught in the worst possible spot, then realized woongjin to KT tags ratio is 20:1
anyways well done Flash, we'll see how you do vs soulkey in the Ace
He could have dropped a sunk or 2 imo but he was "too cool for school"
On November 10 2010 13:54 Grobyc wrote: How the hell did people recommend that? That was one of the most 1 sided games I've ever seen :S
Perfect marine medic micro. One control group of marines vs 5 lurkers and like 12+ lings? Soulkey didn't make any huge blunders too just got caught out of position for a couple seconds and that was all Flash needed to destroy his whole base. Extremely impressive.
While I would never call Flash's micro bad, it's not as impressive as you make it seem. Lurkers don't have that long range, and take a while to burrow and unborrow--as soon as Flash had his marine group where it was there's basically no way Soulkey could have gotten his lurkers into position to actually kill the marine group until there is literally no place left to run.
Yeah it was Flash's sense and decision making that were perfect, but there was nothing much Soulkey could have done at the point. He should have built sunkens and used his lurkerling to stall time until sunkens finished
Would one sunken and a few lings at the natural be too much of a sacrifice? It seemed that Soulkey was positioning his lurkers for a sandwich that simply wasn't there--Flash had a free lane straight into the main with nothing to impede his progress. Just bad decision-making in general.
On November 10 2010 14:00 TwoToneTerran wrote: Also I seriously just want to point at games like this and fucking cram it in the face of people who say Flash just turtles alot. He is the absolute goddamn best at aggressive, risky plays and does them successfully more than anyone else.
flash fan futility! not one of the anti-fans will ever give flash the respect he deserves, lol
On November 10 2010 13:50 swanized wrote: well HAD this gone to lategame soulkey would had raped FLash so hard...
Flash is always the favorite late game.
ALWAYS
Actually Flash is pretty much the favorite at all times, but mostly late game.
No. Jae owning FlaSh in late game 90% of time.
No, he doesn't, he didn't, and he won't. Double gold, get over it.
Anyways, back to the game. That was embarrassing. Lurker opening gets raped by marine agression... it doesn't get more one-sided than that (well, maybe 2hatch muta getting beaten by an SCV rush). SK was outclassed.
What? Flash won vs Jae only if he fast kill 3rd gas.
Um, 3 gas zerg is hive stage. That's lategame, mate. Also, Flash's most recent wins against Jaedong included lategame ones in WCG.
WCG was like training games. And Jae won on Tau Cross in late game.
Rofl, you discredit the wins then cite one of the wins. Jaedong is not favored against in in any way right now, you're silly for saying he is.
On November 10 2010 14:15 Sirgery wrote: Why cancel the 2nd port? Isn't 2port a very good way to counter a fast expand?
I've seen it be very effective. Flash vs Sea on Polaris Rhapsody I think showcased a very abusive 2port that put one player ahead. I'll try to find a VOD link.
Sea didn't see (no pun intended) it coming though. If you can foresee it then the fast expander would probably come out ahead if the players were equally skilled imo.
On November 10 2010 14:14 p4NDemik wrote: Enough with the Flash/Jaedong bs right now guys. It's KT vs Woongjin.
Rofl, what, Everytime Flash and Jaedong win a game against anyone the comparisons come up. They're the two best players in the world, man.
Yes, and one of them isn't involved in this match. Keep it on topic from here on out.
I'll obey but you have an absolutely daunting task if you want people to keep on topic in a live report thread. These things haven't been on topic for two years.
oh wow soulkey hoped to get matched up with flash then gets his wish. well mess with the bull, you get the horns. as amazing skey is with zvt, it means nothing since its zvF.
On November 10 2010 14:14 p4NDemik wrote: Enough with the Flash/Jaedong bs right now guys. It's KT vs Woongjin.
Rofl, what, Everytime Flash and Jaedong win a game against anyone the comparisons come up. They're the two best players in the world, man.
Yes, and one of them isn't involved in this match. Keep it on topic from here on out.
I'll obey but you have an absolutely daunting task if you want people to keep on topic in a live report thread. These things haven't been on topic for two years.
It is just annoying. Everyone has an opinion on it and excessive fanboy arguments like "olol flash/jd will win EVERY late game against Flash/jd UNLESS a) blabla cheese b)imba maps c) only wcg it didnt count" won't change that.
I don't really know how to call this one. PvP is so nebulous, but Tempest is kind of bad and Free is noted for his inconsistency in the matchup. He has gotten way better at it recently so he'll most likely win.
hrm, I think tempest letting this get to the lategame is a bad idea. Free has better macro, micro, and big army control than him and that's where he could come back.
On November 10 2010 14:36 TwoToneTerran wrote: hrm, I think tempest letting this get to the lategame is a bad idea. Free has better macro, micro, and big army control than him and that's where he could come back.
I mean, you want him to throw down a ton of gateways and try to break the front?
I prefer his current course of action; storm drop and turtle. He knows Free can't touch him right now, better to keep the lead. Have to be confident in your play or you've already lost.
Tempest moving out with his armies. free retreats his own army back to his base.
Tempest's shuttle goes back into free's main, redrops the templar, he throws up more storms (16 kills before he dies).
Tempest pushing in on free with his army. free storms Tempest's army several times, doing a lot of damage. He is actually going to come out on top here, even though he was outnumbered in this battle.
wow free is getting some sick storms off this game. Tempest needs to stop throwing away his advantages and dodge, or at least invest in more hts himself.
free defeats Tempest's army in their second large battle.
On November 10 2010 14:40 TwoToneTerran wrote: Yep, should've gone for another push instead of expanding to a third. Free's got this game.
Tempest took another expansion...
Yes. I specifically said he shouldn't have expanded to a third and instead should've made an army while Free tried to get back economically. Not sure what you got from my post.
On November 10 2010 14:39 Grobyc wrote: wow... storms just raped Tempests army to oblivion O_O
On November 10 2010 14:40 TwoToneTerran wrote: Yep, should've gone for another push instead of expanding to a third. Free's got this game.
Tempest took another expansion...
And now Tempest is down an expansion with no army...
On November 10 2010 14:43 TwoToneTerran wrote: Yes. I specifically said he shouldn't have expanded to a third and instead should've made an army while Free tried to get back economically. Not sure what you got from my post.
True. But just because he lost that battle didn't automatically mean he was incredibly far behind. Losing the battle outside his third did put him behind.
I don't think Tempest made any strategic errors where you saw them, T3, although he definitely made tactical ones.
On November 10 2010 14:39 Grobyc wrote: wow... storms just raped Tempests army to oblivion O_O
On November 10 2010 14:40 TwoToneTerran wrote: Yep, should've gone for another push instead of expanding to a third. Free's got this game.
Tempest took another expansion...
And now Tempest is down an expansion with no army...
True. But just because he lost that battle didn't automatically mean he was incredibly far behind. Losing the battle outside his third did.
Uh, one kind of begets the other, mate.
Tempest is alive, but losing, and that's because Free is better at lategame PvP than Tempest. I was saying tempest should've made a push before lategame.
LOL OMG When Free kill tempest expansion I thought game was over so I went to do something and I came back and see tempest army at Free's natural.. wtf!! Lol GO TEMPEST
Hero DT for Tempest might actually help him comeback here. Free's army looks a lot less scary after losing a set of HT's.
On November 10 2010 14:52 TwoToneTerran wrote: okay, that was clever. Go mass zealot after depowering his Robo facility, then go DT to kill the templars that are to counter the zealots.
I put it down to Tempest saving what little gas he has for HT's, but I like this explanation.
On November 10 2010 14:54 TwoToneTerran wrote: That's what happens when your opponent can storm drop you that easily. Bad fourth expansion for Tempest due to those positions.
Tempest totally could've protected it by placing two goons there.
On November 10 2010 14:54 TwoToneTerran wrote: That's what happens when your opponent can storm drop you that easily. Bad fourth expansion for Tempest due to those positions.
Tempest totally could've protected it by placing two goons there.
Not really. He would've killed the shuttle but the HT's would've offloaded. what he needed was an observer watching it like Free's was watching his main, but Tempest was low on observers due to his opening.
On November 10 2010 14:54 TwoToneTerran wrote: That's what happens when your opponent can storm drop you that easily. Bad fourth expansion for Tempest due to those positions.
Tempest totally could've protected it by placing two goons there.
Not really. He would've killed the shuttle but the HT's would've offloaded. what he needed was an observer watching it like Free's was watching his main, but Tempest was low on observers due to his opening.
Fine, four goons. It would've been better use of them than his kamikaze pushes.
On November 10 2010 14:39 Grobyc wrote: wow... storms just raped Tempests army to oblivion O_O
On November 10 2010 14:40 TwoToneTerran wrote: Yep, should've gone for another push instead of expanding to a third. Free's got this game.
Tempest took another expansion...
And now Tempest is down an expansion with no army...
True. But just because he lost that battle didn't automatically mean he was incredibly far behind. Losing the battle outside his third did.
Uh, one kind of begets the other, mate.
Tempest is alive, but losing, and that's because Free is better at lategame PvP than Tempest. I was saying tempest should've made a push before lategame.
I understand that Tempest lost his third as a result of losing his army outside Free's base. My point is that he wasn't really behind after he lost his army, but he was definitely vulnerable. Tempest did still have an army, and it's conceivable that he could've saved his third, it's not like Free made a beeline right for it, there was some back and forth, and some hesitation. As we saw, Tempest's earlier fourth made a hell of difference a few minutes later when Tempest almost was able to turn things around, as it helped him paper over the loss of his third and take the initiative. Of course, once he ran all his zealots into Free's main to die (Biggest error of the game, I thought) then Free's army was bigger and with both players roughly equal in econ, then he had to hope for a DT to save him, which it ultimately couldn't.
You can't really always point to one thing which changed the course of the game, and I don't think Tempest was "behind" after he lost his army the first time. He was behind after he lost his third.
On November 10 2010 14:59 phosphorylation wrote: who can KT call out?
KT still has Violet, Stats, and Action. It's really looking good for KT at this point, since Woongjin has all but expended their lineup. If those three take the next three games, I'm sure no one would be surprised.
Of course, Woongjin can try a tactical play for a quick win in any of the next 3 games, so KT players are probably going to play more defensive than they usually would. Because of that, I'd send out Violet first, a normally defensive macro protoss.
edit: I just remembered there's an ace match, lolz. That still doesn't mean they'll send out Flash, as Woongjin probably expected it to go to ace.
On November 10 2010 14:54 TwoToneTerran wrote: That's what happens when your opponent can storm drop you that easily. Bad fourth expansion for Tempest due to those positions.
Tempest totally could've protected it by placing two goons there.
Not really. He would've killed the shuttle but the HT's would've offloaded. what he needed was an observer watching it like Free's was watching his main, but Tempest was low on observers due to his opening.
Fine, four goons. It would've been better use of them than his kamikaze pushes.
Heh I come back to watch BW again and I still see this twotoneterran being a rampant KT apologist
Less blaming the map, more blaming Tempest for not converting his midgame advantage into a win.
On November 10 2010 14:54 TwoToneTerran wrote: That's what happens when your opponent can storm drop you that easily. Bad fourth expansion for Tempest due to those positions.
Tempest totally could've protected it by placing two goons there.
Not really. He would've killed the shuttle but the HT's would've offloaded. what he needed was an observer watching it like Free's was watching his main, but Tempest was low on observers due to his opening.
Fine, four goons. It would've been better use of them than his kamikaze pushes.
Heh I come back to watch BW again and I still see this twotoneterran being a rampant KT apologist
Less blaming the map, more blaming Tempest for not converting his midgame advantage into a win.
I said Tempest did something stupid and I called him worse than Free. I'm not apologizing to anyone. I'm fucking critiquing him for bad play. Tempest had the advantage and made a bad in game call by expanding somewhere his opponent could take advantage of. That's a mistake, not imbalance.
Sair doesn't seem to have anything right now. He had a pretty nice economy advantage, traded a few vults for an alright number of probes, but has practically no army or 3rd yet or anything :/
He put stasis on a clump of 5 tanks and then moved in with 4 ridiculous storms. Terran was also right in the middle of the map, so toss had a really huge arc.
On November 10 2010 15:21 fly.stat wrote: WOW complete STEAMROLL battle for Stats!
He put stasis on a clump of 5 tanks and then moved in with 4 ridiculous storms. Terran was also right in the middle of the map, so toss had a really huge arc.
why would you play that style of tvp (slowly creep across the map, expanding as you go) on fortress - it's basically the worst map possible for it >__>
Pretty good even matchups from the coaches. Both teams seem to have gotten their strong players vs the other team's weak players. I think KT catching one of Star's best players (soulkey) against Flash might be the most important thing.
On November 10 2010 15:23 phosphorylation wrote: the commentators really bashing SAIR
What are they saying?
they were talking about how sair was playing really old style of terran (a la Lost temple), and even then, they didn't play that badly back then they are contrasting with the very modern and sleek play of stats
On November 10 2010 15:21 fly.stat wrote: WOW complete STEAMROLL battle for Stats!
He put stasis on a clump of 5 tanks and then moved in with 4 ridiculous storms. Terran was also right in the middle of the map, so toss had a really huge arc.
GG, 2 more KT gogo!
Terran also clumped like everything, so yeah...
You're right. After watching the replay there wasn't really a big arc at all, it was more terran clumping all of his stuff together and just getting wrecked by storms and stasis.
On November 10 2010 15:46 Fenrax wrote: Terrible choice to expand a 3rd time so early, let piano scout all ur bases and not having the mutalisk micro needed. He deserved a loss for that.
This match is making KT seem more like KTFlash than I guess they would be comfortable with, at least they have a really good second player in Stats now though. So far Action has unfortunately not lived up to his promise from last season on KT, I hope he starts doing well even if it helps KT, I would really like to see him become a top player.
Congrats on the win for Woongjin, the Zero game was one of the more exciting ZvZ recently I feel sorry for Action though, not sure what's happened to his play recently
Gj to PianO, though most of that can be blamed on an underwhelming performance from Action. Woo go Stars, this was an important match :D. Missed ZerO's game cuz I forgot about daylight savings time being over =[ .
Glad to see that this mediocre team is performing up to expectations again. Let's face it. Last season's Proleague victory was a fluke. Violet, Tempest, Action are all mediocre players. Forgg is horribly inconsistent. Flash and Stats are the only genuinely good players, but even Stats is pretty overrated.
lol Proleague Winners are flukes. They completely crushed Round 1, did fairly well in Round 2 and 4, and even came out with a not completely awful Round 5 despite Flash losing like every ace match he played (which, guess what, is thanks to KT having a strong team and not Flash).
KT is exactly like STX. If they want to play big money Starcraft they can, but a lot of the time they don't because people like Violet keep losing their motivation. 4-2 isn't a bad result anyway considering how strong Woongjin Stars is right now.
On November 10 2010 16:15 Womwomwom wrote: lol Proleague Winners are flukes. They completely crushed Round 1, did fairly well in Round 2 and 4, and even came out with a not completely awful Round 5 despite Flash losing like every ace match he played (which, guess what, is thanks to KT having a strong team and not Flash).
KT is exactly like STX. If they want to play big money Starcraft they can, but a lot of the time they don't because people like Violet keep losing their motivation. 4-2 isn't a bad result anyway considering how strong Woongjin Stars is right now.
Well Violet started strong this season but then suddenly crashed into a 4 game losing streak.. Yeah many people don't realize that last season they would've been 10-1 if Flash had won all of his ace games. I'm just worried at this rate they won't be able to catch up to SKT and Stars, which are completely on fire right now.. btw, hilarious on how Flash's only loss is in the ace match
On November 10 2010 15:57 Cheeseburgered wrote: wtf happened to KT from last season? the whole team is terribad
first a three game winning streak straight into a three game losing streak... somehow I had a bad feeling after they lost to Samsung.. I hate being right
On November 10 2010 15:57 Cheeseburgered wrote: wtf happened to KT from last season? the whole team is terribad
first a three game winning streak straight into a three game losing streak... somehow I had a bad feeling after they lost to Samsung.. I hate being right
On November 10 2010 15:57 Cheeseburgered wrote: wtf happened to KT from last season? the whole team is terribad
first a three game winning streak straight into a three game losing streak... somehow I had a bad feeling after they lost to Samsung.. I hate being right
We have plenty of time to bounce back.We may not have round 1 but we'll get ours slowly.
plus now we are now the underdog team again.KT FIGHTING!
On November 10 2010 16:15 Womwomwom wrote: lol Proleague Winners are flukes. They completely crushed Round 1, did fairly well in Round 2 and 4, and even came out with a not completely awful Round 5 despite Flash losing like every ace match he played (which, guess what, is thanks to KT having a strong team and not Flash).
KT is exactly like STX. If they want to play big money Starcraft they can, but a lot of the time they don't because people like Violet keep losing their motivation. 4-2 isn't a bad result anyway considering how strong Woongjin Stars is right now.
ROFL... Im expecting a lot of haters like you to come up with this idea. But u know what? its just a losing slumpand every team experiences things like these. I agree with lack of motivation. But fluke? KT is a consistent strong team and losing 3 in a row is highly unimaginable.
Seriously what is up with action...you're up against a virtual B teamer and thats al you need to send in the best player in the world into an Ace match...what is going on.
On November 10 2010 17:42 smileyyy wrote: wow whats going with Action did my brain overhyped him that much o.q. Damn I know that his zvz is bad but come on zvt vs Piano ...
On November 10 2010 17:26 ZlaSHeR wrote: Seriously what is up with action...you're up against a virtual B teamer and thats al you need to send in the best player in the world into an Ace match...
...who has lost 7 Ace matches in a row and obviously wouldn't be sent again -___- Most likely ace of KT is now Stats i think.
Flash got another free win it seems -___- Seriously, how can you fuck with him and try to mind trick him? He got a perfect game sense that is given to him by his ability to do whatever he wants and move where he wants. Seems no one realises that to mind trick him is the best way to lose to him -___- Instead you should put the same tons of brain efforts into build optimisation and compete with him only with no less basis than he has. To overcome him by single mind trick is next to impossible. You should be based on something, and only that would put true pressure on him. -___-
And also, they should stop thinking that Flash can only make units like a robot, and only macro. He's got a 1st best micro among terrans and probably one of the best (if not the best) overall. Even Jaedong can't outmicro him (but he can outmacro).
So basically I'm trying to say that Flash can e only killed with his own weapon, but no one even tries to put efforts into their builds' optimisation as much as he did. And it IS a matter of hard work, nothing else could substitute that.
yes, because another one gave him it for free. -___- Last season, Flash seemed to be winning everything with his strenght and work. This season is vice versa - everyone seem losing to him themselves with their weakness and lack of work. Till when? -___-
they just come up with shit BO and strategy and think that one smart idea saves them the game (like fast muta or fast lurks)...
GOD DAMN KT. Good to see Flash and generally Stats can win. Otherwise Action is playing WAY under his potential (anyone remember the Action who played Flash in that crazy game on Roadrunner?!)
Tempest also used to be superb at PvP, as he'd win games with multiple 20-probe-kill templars, except he seems to be stumbling as of late.
ForGG's loss, fair enough, as Really when in form has a strong TvT.
Finally, Hoejja is pretty much always going to be a free loss, as he is not very good..
On November 10 2010 23:41 sixfour wrote: fuck yeah stars
but i really don't get what they're doing sending out sair and piano, what does hon_sin have to do to get a game
also wtf is up with action, this is a pretty epic slump since moving to KT
It's so good to see them do well though. Terran is their big weak point. Really isn't the greatest player ever but I hope he can help the others get decent.
On November 10 2010 15:57 Cheeseburgered wrote: wtf happened to KT from last season? the whole team is terribad
It may be the new format. It seems so long ago, but was there really a time in proleague where flash + stats + flash(ace) would have won them the entire match?
If anyone watched season 5 of last year's PL this is all no surprise. Their finals games were all impressive yes, but it was only the performance of a single day.
On November 10 2010 23:26 Graham wrote: GOD DAMN KT. Good to see Flash and generally Stats can win. Otherwise Action is playing WAY under his potential (anyone remember the Action who played Flash in that crazy game on Roadrunner?!)
Tempest also used to be superb at PvP, as he'd win games with multiple 20-probe-kill templars, except he seems to be stumbling as of late.
ForGG's loss, fair enough, as Really when in form has a strong TvT.
Finally, Hoejja is pretty much always going to be a free loss, as he is not very good..
~_~
IIRC Action got somehow an advantage (Flash made a mid-game mistake?) and this is why he saved himself into late game.
Action without defilers = mediocre. And every terran knows how to counter him (Kwanro).
KT went to ace less times than most teams last season. R1 specifically they only needed Flash in ace once. I think KT is weaker in the format where you don't know who your opponent is. Flash trhives because he's so adaptable but I don't think the other KT players have that strong suit. They showed it in R4 last season, though in R5 the team was doing just fine (Flash was dropping a lot of ace matches otherwise they would've matched their R1 performance, even without luxury).
I'm thinking it's just a post championship funk. SKT, for instance, lost in the finals and has been on an absolute tear despite being only slightly stronger a team. The KT kids need motivation after finally achieving something their franchise has wanted for like 9 years.
On November 11 2010 03:59 TwoToneTerran wrote: KT went to ace less times than most teams last season. R1 specifically they only needed Flash in ace once. I think KT is weaker in the format where you don't know who your opponent is. Flash trhives because he's so adaptable but I don't think the other KT players have that strong suit. They showed it in R4 last season, though in R5 the team was doing just fine (Flash was dropping a lot of ace matches otherwise they would've matched their R1 performance, even without luxury).
I'm thinking it's just a post championship funk. SKT, for instance, lost in the finals and has been on an absolute tear despite being only slightly stronger a team. The KT kids need motivation after finally achieving something their franchise has wanted for like 9 years.
How can you call R5 just fine?! Flash lost all those ace matches cause KT was unable to get two non-Flash wins.
And SKT1 performed very good after their title last year.
On November 11 2010 03:59 TwoToneTerran wrote: KT went to ace less times than most teams last season. R1 specifically they only needed Flash in ace once. I think KT is weaker in the format where you don't know who your opponent is. Flash trhives because he's so adaptable but I don't think the other KT players have that strong suit. They showed it in R4 last season, though in R5 the team was doing just fine (Flash was dropping a lot of ace matches otherwise they would've matched their R1 performance, even without luxury).
I'm thinking it's just a post championship funk. SKT, for instance, lost in the finals and has been on an absolute tear despite being only slightly stronger a team. The KT kids need motivation after finally achieving something their franchise has wanted for like 9 years.
How can you call R5 just fine?! Flash lost all those ace matches cause KT was unable to get two non-Flash wins.
And SKT1 performed very good after their title last year.
KT's team played fine. Flash was in the oddest slump ever, but that's not the issue right now -- it's the team.
I really don't see why Action got so much attention in the first place. He had one excellent game against Flash in the past where he showed some ridiculous defiler play but still lost. Aside from that, what has he done?
On November 11 2010 03:59 TwoToneTerran wrote: KT went to ace less times than most teams last season. R1 specifically they only needed Flash in ace once. I think KT is weaker in the format where you don't know who your opponent is. Flash trhives because he's so adaptable but I don't think the other KT players have that strong suit. They showed it in R4 last season, though in R5 the team was doing just fine (Flash was dropping a lot of ace matches otherwise they would've matched their R1 performance, even without luxury).
I'm thinking it's just a post championship funk. SKT, for instance, lost in the finals and has been on an absolute tear despite being only slightly stronger a team. The KT kids need motivation after finally achieving something their franchise has wanted for like 9 years.
How can you call R5 just fine?! Flash lost all those ace matches cause KT was unable to get two non-Flash wins.
And SKT1 performed very good after their title last year.
KT's team played fine. Flash was in the oddest slump ever, but that's not the issue right now -- it's the team.
Flash isn't in slump, Flash just isn't receiving any resistance or pressure now, and so playing carelessly. Should someone actually punish him for it, he will be in trouble. But instead they keep playing carelessly themselves. -____-
On November 11 2010 05:30 j2choe wrote: I really don't see why Action got so much attention in the first place. He had one excellent game against Flash in the past where he showed some ridiculous defiler play but still lost. Aside from that, what has he done?
Action has in general a really really good late-game (not just in that game vs Flash) but is INCREDIBLY overrated
People shitting on Action probably didn't even know who Action was until eSTRO disbanded.
Anyway, goddamn, SaiR had billionaire timing in that game. He only lost because he left his tanks clumped together and Stats had a dozen storms. Hope he keeps improving.
On November 11 2010 03:59 TwoToneTerran wrote: KT went to ace less times than most teams last season. R1 specifically they only needed Flash in ace once. I think KT is weaker in the format where you don't know who your opponent is. Flash trhives because he's so adaptable but I don't think the other KT players have that strong suit. They showed it in R4 last season, though in R5 the team was doing just fine (Flash was dropping a lot of ace matches otherwise they would've matched their R1 performance, even without luxury).
I'm thinking it's just a post championship funk. SKT, for instance, lost in the finals and has been on an absolute tear despite being only slightly stronger a team. The KT kids need motivation after finally achieving something their franchise has wanted for like 9 years.
How can you call R5 just fine?! Flash lost all those ace matches cause KT was unable to get two non-Flash wins.
And SKT1 performed very good after their title last year.
KT's team played fine. Flash was in the oddest slump ever, but that's not the issue right now -- it's the team.
yeah flash with 65%+ winrate is slump haha
Flash had well over a 70% winrate that season, but he it this odd ace game only slumping situation where he costed KT like 5 games.
On November 11 2010 03:59 TwoToneTerran wrote: KT went to ace less times than most teams last season. R1 specifically they only needed Flash in ace once. I think KT is weaker in the format where you don't know who your opponent is. Flash trhives because he's so adaptable but I don't think the other KT players have that strong suit. They showed it in R4 last season, though in R5 the team was doing just fine (Flash was dropping a lot of ace matches otherwise they would've matched their R1 performance, even without luxury).
I'm thinking it's just a post championship funk. SKT, for instance, lost in the finals and has been on an absolute tear despite being only slightly stronger a team. The KT kids need motivation after finally achieving something their franchise has wanted for like 9 years.
How can you call R5 just fine?! Flash lost all those ace matches cause KT was unable to get two non-Flash wins.
Round 5 was completely fine. Just because you get to seem to always get to ace doesn't mean your team lacks depth or is suddenly weak. The fact that KT got 5-6 (or something along those lines) with their best player performing like shit, inside and outside ace matches, says a lot about the depth of KT when they want to play. 5-6 isn't a bad result, shit like Winner's League winners CJ Entus getting like 2-3 wins in Winner's League is an awful result.
I actually can't think of any team that has the depth you expect every team to have, only two teams I can think of with *actual* depth is SK Telecom (Best/Bisu/Fantasy) and Woonjing Stars (Free/Zero/Soulkey). These two teams are pretty much the only ones in the business that can reliably beat any team without an ace match, most other teams need a bit of luck to get a 3-1/3-0 result constantly.
On November 11 2010 03:59 TwoToneTerran wrote: KT went to ace less times than most teams last season. R1 specifically they only needed Flash in ace once. I think KT is weaker in the format where you don't know who your opponent is. Flash trhives because he's so adaptable but I don't think the other KT players have that strong suit. They showed it in R4 last season, though in R5 the team was doing just fine (Flash was dropping a lot of ace matches otherwise they would've matched their R1 performance, even without luxury).
I'm thinking it's just a post championship funk. SKT, for instance, lost in the finals and has been on an absolute tear despite being only slightly stronger a team. The KT kids need motivation after finally achieving something their franchise has wanted for like 9 years.
How can you call R5 just fine?! Flash lost all those ace matches cause KT was unable to get two non-Flash wins.
And SKT1 performed very good after their title last year.
KT's team played fine. Flash was in the oddest slump ever, but that's not the issue right now -- it's the team.
yeah flash with 65%+ winrate is slump haha
Flash had well over a 70% winrate that season, but he hit this odd ace game only slumping situation where he costed KT like 5 games.
It was seven in a row I think? Or eight now after his loss to BeSt. And then they started sending other players for the ace match.
On November 11 2010 03:59 TwoToneTerran wrote: KT went to ace less times than most teams last season. R1 specifically they only needed Flash in ace once. I think KT is weaker in the format where you don't know who your opponent is. Flash trhives because he's so adaptable but I don't think the other KT players have that strong suit. They showed it in R4 last season, though in R5 the team was doing just fine (Flash was dropping a lot of ace matches otherwise they would've matched their R1 performance, even without luxury).
I'm thinking it's just a post championship funk. SKT, for instance, lost in the finals and has been on an absolute tear despite being only slightly stronger a team. The KT kids need motivation after finally achieving something their franchise has wanted for like 9 years.
How can you call R5 just fine?! Flash lost all those ace matches cause KT was unable to get two non-Flash wins.
Round 5 was completely fine. Just because you get to seem to always get to ace doesn't mean your team lacks depth or is suddenly weak. The fact that KT got 5-6 (or something along those lines) with their best player performing like shit, inside and outside ace matches, says a lot about the depth of KT when they want to play. 5-6 isn't a bad result, shit like Winner's League winners CJ Entus getting like 2-3 wins in Winner's League is an awful result.
I actually can't think of any team that has the depth you expect every team to have, only two teams I can think of with *actual* depth is SK Telecom (Best/Bisu/Fantasy) and Woonjing Stars (Free/Zero/Soulkey). These two teams are pretty much the only ones in the business that can reliably beat any team without an ace match, most other teams need a bit of luck to get a 3-1/3-0 result constantly.
I'd like to say that Hite has depth but like you said, their snipeyness requires them to be a bit lucky. Lately their players just haven't been sent out at the right time.
You know what? Ace. At least two good players of each race. They should do well this season.
EPT
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![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/teams/2.jpg)
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HoeJJa < Empire of the Sun > 
Flash < Grand Line SE > 
Tempest < Aztec > ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wKK2p.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/flamewheel/Team_Icons/KTRolster.png)
KT Rolster 2-4 Woongjin Stars![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/teams/icons/uniforms/6.png)
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![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/VtDcl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/r8bIK.jpg)
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