TvP on Luna - Page 3

Famouzze

971 Posts

March 21 2005 02:45 GMT

#41

can someone explain to me the reason why everyone thinks you can't make a wall on luna? it looks exactly the same as blade storm to me..

Famouzze

971 Posts

March 21 2005 02:48 GMT

#42

btw saying dropship is totally useless on luna is really dumb imo, there are lots of maps with no cliff where dropship is still used by good terrans vs me i find. u don't need a cliff for it to work.

i think grot is a good admin when it comes to not abusing his power but i think he can be a little harsh when he thinks he's right ^^

MPXMX

Canada4309 Posts

March 21 2005 02:55 GMT

#43

On Luna there is a piece of terrain that you can't build on in the middle of your choke, to prevent easy wall-in. Obviously its still possible to wallin, but you need like 4-5 buildings... I think boxer used a factory + rax + 2 supplies to wall in..

Famouzze

971 Posts

March 21 2005 03:02 GMT

#44

ahh un-build-able terrain, i should've guessed. i was thinking it was something about the ramp and i was like wtf? cool, i like this map ^^/.

KillerPenguin

United States516 Posts

March 21 2005 03:37 GMT

#45

I feel like the worst part about dropship on luna is after you drop the ship and port u made are almost useless. On LT there is a big after effect of cliff harass, because its very easy to make an extra ship and takeover ur cliff or harass cliff later, at the least you scare the p into waiting to expo by cliffs when he knows port. Like many strats i'd probly only use this if i felt like i knew the person and that he didn't protect main. Btw i love the geeked ramp I think that gives luna some flavor.

Resse

307 Posts

March 21 2005 04:06 GMT

#46

Grot is right fact/port sucks for obvious reasons. The map can be best played in a couple ways imo. One way is to fast expo and take your next expos fairly fast as you macro and eventually move out with a giant upgraded force. Another way is fast offensive. You can also turtle the top or bottom of the map while you take the other mains resources and drop whore the toss. Lastly depending on the spots you can abuse the bride from the nat with tanks and do a pretty deadly early push into the toss' nat.

yOOysi

Poland726 Posts

March 21 2005 04:34 GMT

#47

Zpux u are saying bullshit.

Scouting probe is dancing on your main, u must use your first marine to kill it, while u are trying to kill first probe and have 3/4 of your fact u have zealot in main, now u have 2 marines against zealot. And coming first goon to your main when u have 1 tank, next goons are coming...

I don't know how u can take your two tanks and fly to his main ^^

Terross

United States878 Posts

March 21 2005 04:40 GMT

#48

Grot is right imo. Only 1 fact port is not a viable option whatsoever. I think 2 fact vulture/push/fake push expand and 1 fact expand are all fine. the 2 fact builds being better. And just because 1 fact port is not good, doesnt mean getting dorps for harrass mid-late game isn't good. It is risky, can win you game if you have excellent harrass, but it hurts your macro. And saying that because it is a surprise won't help either. Toss can transfer probes and send goons to kill tanks..

VerticalHorizon

United States415 Posts

March 21 2005 05:15 GMT

#49

I've found that harass and hard expo while pushing works pretty well. Generally, I start with a 1 fac cc while fake-attacking w/marines and tank... from then, depending on positions, you can do a couple different things. If its like... 7 vs 5, you can push up the side, cover the bridge while overlooking the curving entrance to his nat w/your push. From there, you can continuously harass his min only across the bridge while taking your min only yourself. If he devotes a lot of attention to defending his min only, you just put a token holding force at the bridge and secure the entrance to his nat even more strongly. You need a ton of vults to play this, else shuttle zlots will kill. If he ignores his min only n expos to the min only on the other side (across the bridge to his left), lightly guard the bridge and harass the min only from the other side (go all around the map w/vults) while securing the entrance to his nat again. While doing this, you expo like a nut, take another gas, etc. You NEED a lot of cash to play luna vs strong toss I've found. Close pos on luna can be played like this, utilizing bridges and such. If toss expos to main early, I usually go 2 more fac after expo and port, cuz dship/vult is good vs faraway mains. In fact, you can even just tank drop the expo w/out vults if its lightly guarded, while using vults and bridges to get in and around to hit other expos. All in all, very fun and interesting to play tvp on luna I've found, as long as you get past all the possibilities of gayness in the early game. It really opens up your mind n teaches you the essentials of thinking thru a push/the basic philosophy behind harass tactics, etc. It's not just about cliff control when it comes to harass, you actually have to think and set up strategies that have layers, traps within traps, so that you can secure your own expos and kill him w/macro.

itzme_petey

United States1400 Posts

March 21 2005 05:24 GMT

#50

Luna is pretty hard to play on if you dont have momentum. But thats kind of true for everything. I go for a hanbang rush (not sure how you say that).
3-4rines,
fac1,
fac2,
addon1,
tank,
addon2,
now you will have 2facs with 1tank almost done,
3t4t (double tanks).
go mines,
then siege.
move out with your 4rines 3tanks, rally the facs to the middle or as you move re-rally. vultures are fast and will be there as soon as your forces gets there. no point in waiting for them, mine out the possible expos if the toss is turtling on his cliff. Siege outside his base for a minute or two and see if you can push into the expo. Really, this strat is mean't (imo) to wack as many goons as possible and gain some ground, also it tells the toss that you're fuucking crazy and will try to suicide to take out his expo that he wants to warp in. If you keep the toss from even getting the probe into the expo spot, then WOW you are really fast. Expand yourself, move back as, the toss will probably change to tech drop into expo. Macro, and just make sure the lone probe never gets to start a nexus at the 2nd expo. I like to gain ground and just start my expo at the correct place instead of having to lift and land. Saves you alot of time, might not see it, but it does. From there play it standard, i sometimes feel that i can attack move when the toss gets his 2nd expo really early.

SoL.Origin

Argentina2400 Posts

March 21 2005 06:05 GMT

#51

1 fac port is not a good build on luna because the base is gigantic, you cant wall-in, and you cant defend yourself with 1 fac and cant follow your drop with a fast expand on such conditions... theres so much the protoss can do that you have to prepare for...

(note: this doesnt mean you wont be needing dropships mid game. Drop harass mid game would help a lot.)

thats why fast expand doesnt work on luna either, not only you cant harass early and so toss can do whatever he wants, you also cant counter his double expand with fast push because you cant push at all, and its easy for toss to attack your expo early on, or harass with reaver on such a huge base, or dt drop since your units are too spread out because the exp is far away, etc

best build is probably 2 fac vultures as most people have said, taking your expansion as fast as possible while harassing

SoL.Origin

Argentina2400 Posts

March 21 2005 06:10 GMT

#52

of course mid and late game you probably need dropships or you must take your 2nd nat and push with tanks towards the closest exp which is usually across the bridge on your 2nd nat

thats the only way to outmacro the toss but you still need to harass a lot because while you are pushing to the other main the bridge part of your push will be weak so the toss can attack there before you set up a lot of tanks and mines

upgrades are a must because toss WILL make carriers with so many exps and it will also help to have the upgrades to compensate the weak defences you will have (compared to protoss' huge army)

-PhiL-

362 Posts

March 21 2005 06:56 GMT

#53

The best is imho to go 2 fac and attack with something like 5 scvs 3 tanks 3 vults 3 marines ( something like this ) ! You should arrive, when his expo is already running, and if you have a good micro you will kill his goons . A good gamer would have something like 6-9 goons.. You can kill them if you have good control!

Fast expansion strat for terran isnt that good in my opinion, since protoss can easily counter it! But a pro toss is always afraid of getting behind and getting his first and second expansion later than the terran. So often the toss expands even before obs, or with something like 4-5 goons and an obs beginning to scout the terran! And thats the point where u can own him with pure scv/tank/vult power..

Im not a very good player ( still something like 5000 on pgtour so far.. ) and i played like 10-15 pvts on Luna! I won like 12 out of them and lost 3 ! I lost 3 games, when the terran just builded mass units out of 2 facs and attacked after he had a real nice group of tanks, and i simply couldnt hold it and lost my expo and the game..

when the terran was playing something like 2 fac vults and expo after it, i ALWAYS won, because i didnt feel any pressure i just could mass up, and when fighting back the first attack of terran you can expo like a freak and just win..

so imho the best strat for terran is to try to decide the game very fast and kill the toss when he tries to expo or to make fast expo yourself.. but i think vs a good toss u cant win this way..

EchoOfRain

United States516 Posts

March 21 2005 09:55 GMT

#54

luna = 2 fact vults to 3 fact tanks + scanner and ebay. You can either add a 4th fact from here or expand.

stimpack[pG]

Philippines88 Posts

March 27 2005 02:59 GMT

#55

On March 21 2005 14:24 itzme_petey wrote:
Luna is pretty hard to play on if you dont have momentum. But thats kind of true for everything. I go for a hanbang rush (not sure how you say that).
3-4rines,
fac1,
fac2,
addon1,
tank,
addon2,
now you will have 2facs with 1tank almost done,
3t4t (double tanks).
go mines,
then siege.
move out with your 4rines 3tanks, rally the facs to the middle or as you move re-rally. vultures are fast and will be there as soon as your forces gets there. no point in waiting for them, mine out the possible expos if the toss is turtling on his cliff. Siege outside his base for a minute or two and see if you can push into the expo. Really, this strat is mean't (imo) to wack as many goons as possible and gain some ground, also it tells the toss that you're fuucking crazy and will try to suicide to take out his expo that he wants to warp in. If you keep the toss from even getting the probe into the expo spot, then WOW you are really fast. Expand yourself, move back as, the toss will probably change to tech drop into expo. Macro, and just make sure the lone probe never gets to start a nexus at the 2nd expo. I like to gain ground and just start my expo at the correct place instead of having to lift and land. Saves you alot of time, might not see it, but it does. From there play it standard, i sometimes feel that i can attack move when the toss gets his 2nd expo really early.

i like this strat this is what i do all the time and it is very effective. the time the obs gets into your base your 3tanks,3rines,3scvs are coming followed by nonstop vults.. its weaknes is reaver drop in your base.. or maybe 3gate goons(unlikely)

SuperCrazyMan

43 Posts

May 08 2005 11:47 GMT

#56

Sorry for reviving this month-old thread, but I have been recently having some TvP troubles on Luna and this wasn't able to much answer my question. My trouble is when I play TvP, I'm naturally not a super-aggressive Terran (mostly because my APM can't handle being everywhere at once), but by the time I move out, I usually have a formidable "blob" of mech. My problem is when the Protoss goes high templars and storm. I don't understand why more Protosses don't use storm on this map, because since the Terran cannot really push on this map, the bunched up units from tornado-style movement are very very vulnerable to clumping and storm. Storm just always seems to own me on this map, and when I run into the Toss army, I don't have time to spread out my tanks to prevent storms; I just instantly siege. Is there a better alternative?

Another problem I have is when the Protoss goes DT. I find DT to be INCREDIBLY difficult, especially when he uses a shuttle. Since I usually attack around the time I only have my nat, I only have 2 comsats, so while I'm moving out, the Toss will sometimes drop single DT into my metal blob, so that I have to spend a comsat to kill 1 DT. If he continues to do this, I run out of comsat and have to run back home or try to kill it with mines, which is really risky for accidentally exploding onto my other vults and tanks. Is there any real good counter for this? Goliaths, understandably, would counter the shuttle harassment if I can't use turrets, but it seems like the Toss is making me unnecessarily waste gas on making goliaths instead of vultures. However, when watching higher-tier gameplay replays, I almost never see these kinds of strats. Is there any particular reason? Am I letting the Protoss tech too freely before attacking?

Feedback would be appreciated, thanks.

SoL.Origin

Argentina2400 Posts

May 08 2005 12:05 GMT

#57

On May 08 2005 20:47 SuperCrazyMan wrote:
Sorry for reviving this month-old thread, but I have been recently having some TvP troubles on Luna and this wasn't able to much answer my question. My trouble is when I play TvP, I'm naturally not a super-aggressive Terran (mostly because my APM can't handle being everywhere at once), but by the time I move out, I usually have a formidable "blob" of mech. My problem is when the Protoss goes high templars and storm. I don't understand why more Protosses don't use storm on this map, because since the Terran cannot really push on this map, the bunched up units from tornado-style movement are very very vulnerable to clumping and storm. Storm just always seems to own me on this map, and when I run into the Toss army, I don't have time to spread out my tanks to prevent storms; I just instantly siege. Is there a better alternative?

Attack his templars with vults while moving out. Also, realize that if he has templar tech his macro is behind, so try to take advantage of that by placing your units better and then he cant attack you because of lower macro so you can advance freely (but slowly). I don't think templars are such a good idea on Luna, at least not until P has 2 or more exps.

On May 08 2005 20:47 SuperCrazyMan wrote:
Another problem I have is when the Protoss goes DT. I find DT to be INCREDIBLY difficult, especially when he uses a shuttle. Since I usually attack around the time I only have my nat, I only have 2 comsats, so while I'm moving out, the Toss will sometimes drop single DT into my metal blob, so that I have to spend a comsat to kill 1 DT. If he continues to do this, I run out of comsat and have to run back home or try to kill it with mines, which is really risky for accidentally exploding onto my other vults and tanks. Is there any real good counter for this? Goliaths, understandably, would counter the shuttle harassment if I can't use turrets, but it seems like the Toss is making me unnecessarily waste gas on making goliaths instead of vultures. However, when watching higher-tier gameplay replays, I almost never see these kinds of strats. Is there any particular reason? Am I letting the Protoss tech too freely before attacking?

Feedback would be appreciated, thanks.

This is like a protoss saying "if terran would drop 1 tank and 2 goliaths non stop on my cliff it would be unstoppable". But this is simply too micro intensive, its not a viable strategy. Learn to stop the dt drop losing almost nothing, and you can also place a couple of turrets to kill his shuttle, that will hurt him pretty bad and P with no shuttle = easier for you to attack.

Luna is made in such a way that it forces players into a macro game, its not necessarily bad for terran unless both players are on not a very high level. In that case it would be bad for T because most terrans who are not too good dont concentrate on macro but on micro and small attacks and most not so good P concentrate mostly on macro so obviously Luna is better for them. On higher levels I believe Luna is somewhat balanced TvP.

Sorrow_eyes

United States1007 Posts

May 08 2005 12:53 GMT

#58

Just SCV float Rax. Ez?

VerticalHorizon

United States415 Posts

May 11 2005 14:05 GMT

#59

If you've got him on the run but his reinforcements will be enough to kill your tornado (not a properly set up push), then just stop just attack moving with your blob and set up a good push that covers some forward ground. Then expand, keep making more facs, and play from there. You don't HAVE to run and kill him because against a good toss you won't be able to just run him over. Use these small victories (forcing him to retreat a bit) to strengthen your push, expand, and set up more harass traps.