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On September 03 2020 04:26 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2020 13:54 QOGQOG wrote:On September 02 2020 07:08 Mettis wrote:
Did Rain retire btw? I haven't been following broodwar long but I heard he was a beast. Who's the Protoss hope? Snow. Though Mini and Bisu could potentially regain some past glory this tournament. Rain has been great. He won from a combination of insane PvP, bracket luck, and protoss favored maps (hence the insane PvP being significant). You could say that Snow has had nearly the same exact success except he couldn't overcome Rain. So, hands down Snow has to be the best Protoss in this ASL.
Yeah, plus Snow has a better chance against top tier Terrans than Rain did.
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So I don't follow things very closely and this thread is making me confused.
How much BW is Bisu playing these days? I hear people saying that he doesn't take it as seriously and doesn't put in the work to really get in great shape. But I also hear people say that he has been playing great on stream. So, what is it?
Also, Rain. Why did he stop playing? I've heard wrist issues but I've also heard that he simply didn't think it was that fun anymore.
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Bisutopia19381 Posts
On September 03 2020 21:24 Barneyk wrote:
So I don't follow things very closely and this thread is making me confused.
How much BW is Bisu playing these days? I hear people saying that he doesn't take it as seriously and doesn't put in the work to really get in great shape. But I also hear people say that he has been playing great on stream. So, what is it?
Also, Rain. Why did he stop playing? I've heard wrist issues but I've also heard that he simply didn't think it was that fun anymore.
It's both. Obviously Bisu is improving because he went two years without playing, but Bisu stopped taking tournaments seriously when he shave his eyebrows before the Vant Starleague Finals and then got embarrassed by Effort. I still love to watch Bisu play and will always cheer for him, but he lost his competitive edge at the closing of the Sospa era.
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I think you're being overly harsh, Bisu is playing a lot and appears to be tryharding -- he's currently ranked 3rd in spon, only behind Flash and Light. He also had a really strong showing in KCM just yesterday. I would even say that he's currently the best pvz player, while Best or Snow are probably the best at pvt -- no idea about pvp since no one really wants to watch/sponsor mirror match ups, and events like KCM obviously have none.
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On September 04 2020 00:44 Avi-Love wrote:
I think you're being overly harsh, Bisu is playing a lot and appears to be tryharding -- he's currently ranked 3rd in spon, only behind Flash and Light. He also had a really strong showing in KCM just yesterday. I would even say that he's currently the best pvz player, while Best or Snow are probably the best at pvt -- no idea about pvp since no one really wants to watch/sponsor mirror match ups, and events like KCM obviously have none.
flash smacced the fuck out of him in pvp the other day fwiw
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Bisutopia19381 Posts
On September 04 2020 00:44 Avi-Love wrote:
I think you're being overly harsh, Bisu is playing a lot and appears to be tryharding -- he's currently ranked 3rd in spon, only behind Flash and Light. He also had a really strong showing in KCM just yesterday. I would even say that he's currently the best pvz player, while Best or Snow are probably the best at pvt -- no idea about pvp since no one really wants to watch/sponsor mirror match ups, and events like KCM obviously have none.
I'm doing a snap shot impression of him since ASL started. He has been goofed on in far to many matches where he is clearly the better player if he is in the best mental condition and we'll prepared. It seems like both his preparation and mental fortitude in a boX series has been really weak. And when he loses a series in the ASL it's littered with mistakes no veteran should be making at this point.
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Its gonna be Stork and Snow.
Both were really close to being in finals for Asl9
Wondering how much the ASTL debacle will derail Stork but he's been tearing ladder up and he's mostly great in offline toirsneys where preparation matters.
Snow is the greatest P currently I believe, no denying that.
Mettis, you should go watch Rain's reign in KSL and ASL (fe Rain v Stork however much that hurts or Rain v Zero) and Snow v Flash in ASL5(?) Snow v Last in season 6(?) those should give you an idea.
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Stork has a significant losing record against pretty much everyone in the entire ASL, the only upside is that he might beat Rush in a bo1 and then have a shot at getting out 2nd in his group -- but Rush and Larva are both a lot better than him.
Best pretty much always chokes when it matters, regardless of how well he does in minor events and in spon games, so best to just assume the worst.
Mini used to be respectable, but 4-5 months ago it seems like he fell off a cliff, he's very shaky and the quality of his play varies wildly, way too inconsistent to make it deep.
Bisu/Snow are the only real chance P has of doing anything in this ASL, in my opinion. Although I still maintain that IF Flash plays T, he's a lock for the win -- otherwise LighT is. They are both just a step above the competition, and with almost all of the maps being good for T in both matchups, this ASL almost feels predetermined.
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On September 03 2020 04:26 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2020 13:54 QOGQOG wrote:On September 02 2020 07:08 Mettis wrote:
Did Rain retire btw? I haven't been following broodwar long but I heard he was a beast. Who's the Protoss hope? Snow. Though Mini and Bisu could potentially regain some past glory this tournament. Rain has been great. He won from a combination of insane PvP, bracket luck, and protoss favored maps (hence the insane PvP being significant). You could say that Snow has had nearly the same exact success except he couldn't overcome Rain. So, hands down Snow has to be the best Protoss in this ASL.
Fuck off
Go look at both of Rain's championship brackets
Also, even in the tournaments that he didn't get 1st place in, go look at his matchups and the games he won
In all the premiere tournaments, he never placed below Top 8
ASL RO8
ASL 1st place
KSL 3rd place
ASL RO8
KSL 3rd place
ASL 4th place
KSL 1st place
ASL 3rd place
KSL 2nd place
I dont know how you can downplay someone's success on their opponents, you beat who is put in front of you, and the way Rain was INCREDIBLY dominant in the matchup despite it being the 2nd most volatile rock paper scissors matchup in the game under ZvZ was amazing to watch
Now go look at Snow's results and Im laughing as I write this with how worse his results and play were compared to Rains
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Thing are getting heated. oof
I don't see the point in arguing about Rain, he will not playing this season.
But Stork! No doubt he will be seeded into season 11.
I realize he has had a rough go of ASL. When the tournaments first started he was struggling to get out of the round of 24 consistently. Each season he has worked hard and its showing in his improved performance. Last season he did the best of all the Protoss players!
Stork may not be the most mechanical player, but he is one of the most clever. He seems to figure out new and strange maps quick and begin defining the meta on them. This season certainly is outside the box, wtf is Plasma? None of the mainstream maps like Fighting Spirit, Circuit Breakers, or Neo Sylphid are in here, which should favor Stork. Best said it best, "Its like everything he (Stork) says is gospel".
Snow is exceptional, no doubt there! His one base win vs Soulkey's 3 hatch hydra was the most well played game of ASL so far. I would expect Snow to place right behind Stork.
What an exciting season this will be!
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On September 04 2020 09:30 ShowTheLights wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2020 04:26 BisuDagger wrote:On September 02 2020 13:54 QOGQOG wrote:On September 02 2020 07:08 Mettis wrote:
Did Rain retire btw? I haven't been following broodwar long but I heard he was a beast. Who's the Protoss hope? Snow. Though Mini and Bisu could potentially regain some past glory this tournament. Rain has been great. He won from a combination of insane PvP, bracket luck, and protoss favored maps (hence the insane PvP being significant). You could say that Snow has had nearly the same exact success except he couldn't overcome Rain. So, hands down Snow has to be the best Protoss in this ASL. Fuck off Go look at both of Rain's championship brackets Also, even in the tournaments that he didn't get 1st place in, go look at his matchups and the games he won In all the premiere tournaments, he never placed below Top 8 ASL RO8
ASL 1st place
KSL 3rd place
ASL RO8
KSL 3rd place
ASL 4th place
KSL 1st place
ASL 3rd place
KSL 2nd place
I dont know how you can downplay someone's success on their opponents, you beat who is put in front of you, and the way Rain was INCREDIBLY dominant in the matchup despite it being the 2nd most volatile rock paper scissors matchup in the game under ZvZ was amazing to watch Now go look at Snow's results and Im laughing as I write this with how worse his results and play were compared to Rains
Wow, I forgot how obnoxious Rain fans are.
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On September 04 2020 10:49 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2020 09:30 ShowTheLights wrote:On September 03 2020 04:26 BisuDagger wrote:On September 02 2020 13:54 QOGQOG wrote:On September 02 2020 07:08 Mettis wrote:
Did Rain retire btw? I haven't been following broodwar long but I heard he was a beast. Who's the Protoss hope? Snow. Though Mini and Bisu could potentially regain some past glory this tournament. Rain has been great. He won from a combination of insane PvP, bracket luck, and protoss favored maps (hence the insane PvP being significant). You could say that Snow has had nearly the same exact success except he couldn't overcome Rain. So, hands down Snow has to be the best Protoss in this ASL. Fuck off Go look at both of Rain's championship brackets Also, even in the tournaments that he didn't get 1st place in, go look at his matchups and the games he won In all the premiere tournaments, he never placed below Top 8 ASL RO8
ASL 1st place
KSL 3rd place
ASL RO8
KSL 3rd place
ASL 4th place
KSL 1st place
ASL 3rd place
KSL 2nd place
I dont know how you can downplay someone's success on their opponents, you beat who is put in front of you, and the way Rain was INCREDIBLY dominant in the matchup despite it being the 2nd most volatile rock paper scissors matchup in the game under ZvZ was amazing to watch Now go look at Snow's results and Im laughing as I write this with how worse his results and play were compared to Rains Wow, I forgot how obnoxious Rain fans are.
Wow, great counterargument
I am defending him because Dr. BisuDagger is being extremely sarcastic when it comes to how Rain can "only win PvP"
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On September 04 2020 10:52 ShowTheLights wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2020 10:49 QOGQOG wrote:On September 04 2020 09:30 ShowTheLights wrote:On September 03 2020 04:26 BisuDagger wrote:On September 02 2020 13:54 QOGQOG wrote:On September 02 2020 07:08 Mettis wrote:
Did Rain retire btw? I haven't been following broodwar long but I heard he was a beast. Who's the Protoss hope? Snow. Though Mini and Bisu could potentially regain some past glory this tournament. Rain has been great. He won from a combination of insane PvP, bracket luck, and protoss favored maps (hence the insane PvP being significant). You could say that Snow has had nearly the same exact success except he couldn't overcome Rain. So, hands down Snow has to be the best Protoss in this ASL. Fuck off Go look at both of Rain's championship brackets Also, even in the tournaments that he didn't get 1st place in, go look at his matchups and the games he won In all the premiere tournaments, he never placed below Top 8 ASL RO8
ASL 1st place
KSL 3rd place
ASL RO8
KSL 3rd place
ASL 4th place
KSL 1st place
ASL 3rd place
KSL 2nd place
I dont know how you can downplay someone's success on their opponents, you beat who is put in front of you, and the way Rain was INCREDIBLY dominant in the matchup despite it being the 2nd most volatile rock paper scissors matchup in the game under ZvZ was amazing to watch Now go look at Snow's results and Im laughing as I write this with how worse his results and play were compared to Rains Wow, I forgot how obnoxious Rain fans are. Wow, great counterargument I am defending him because Dr. BisuDagger is being extremely sarcastic when it comes to how Rain can "only win PvP"
He wasn't exactly bashing him, given he started the post with "Rain has been great." That's an actual quote as opposed to "Rain can only win PvP," which no one said. Given, however, that Rain won ASL5 thanks to Snow eliminating Flash (followed by winning a PvP against Snow in the finals) and KSL3 through a PvP Ro4 and Finals, attributing a lot of his success to PvP prowess is... completely fair and justifiable. And even if you think "great" was somehow unfairly underrating Rain, responding to that with "fuck off" and insulting Snow for some reason is totally uncalled for.
RE: Stork
He is good, and creative. But it's really hard for me to see him winning against the top four from last season.
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konadora
Singapore66364 Posts
a bit off topic but I'm heading to Korea in two weeks for work and I'll be free on weekends. Is there still no live audience? 
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On September 04 2020 09:30 ShowTheLights wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2020 04:26 BisuDagger wrote:On September 02 2020 13:54 QOGQOG wrote:On September 02 2020 07:08 Mettis wrote:
Did Rain retire btw? I haven't been following broodwar long but I heard he was a beast. Who's the Protoss hope? Snow. Though Mini and Bisu could potentially regain some past glory this tournament. Rain has been great. He won from a combination of insane PvP, bracket luck, and protoss favored maps (hence the insane PvP being significant). You could say that Snow has had nearly the same exact success except he couldn't overcome Rain. So, hands down Snow has to be the best Protoss in this ASL. Fuck off Go look at both of Rain's championship brackets Also, even in the tournaments that he didn't get 1st place in, go look at his matchups and the games he won In all the premiere tournaments, he never placed below Top 8 ASL RO8
ASL 1st place
KSL 3rd place
ASL RO8
KSL 3rd place
ASL 4th place
KSL 1st place
ASL 3rd place
KSL 2nd place
I dont know how you can downplay someone's success on their opponents, you beat who is put in front of you, and the way Rain was INCREDIBLY dominant in the matchup despite it being the 2nd most volatile rock paper scissors matchup in the game under ZvZ was amazing to watch Now go look at Snow's results and Im laughing as I write this with how worse his results and play were compared to Rains
I dont know how you can downplay players like Snow or Bisu when compared to Rain. Rain was talented but extremely lazy (shown in his online body of work, just ask letmelose). Asl 5 had Third world, protoss map unlike other and Hero played subpar against Rain. Asl 6 stomped by Effort KSL 1 lost 0-4 to JD and lost online 3rd place match to Soulkey. Asl 6 lost to Effort despite the maps. KSL 2 Lost to Sharp lol. And lost to Last in online 3rd place match. KSL 3 was protoss fest again (some players even switched races during it). Asl7 Lost to Last and Effort in humilating was and asl 8 Flashed out. KSL 4 I agree, impressive win over Zero and quite badly besten By Light who was hitting his stride. Bisu then has always reached ro8, and won a league, has multiple silvers and 3rd place finishes plus online victories. Rain rarely made to top 10 in sponrankings, he usually had something like 45% winrate when players like Bisu, Snow and Best are constantly in top 10.
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Bisutopia19381 Posts
On September 04 2020 09:30 ShowTheLights wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2020 04:26 BisuDagger wrote:On September 02 2020 13:54 QOGQOG wrote:On September 02 2020 07:08 Mettis wrote:
Did Rain retire btw? I haven't been following broodwar long but I heard he was a beast. Who's the Protoss hope? Snow. Though Mini and Bisu could potentially regain some past glory this tournament. Rain has been great. He won from a combination of insane PvP, bracket luck, and protoss favored maps (hence the insane PvP being significant). You could say that Snow has had nearly the same exact success except he couldn't overcome Rain. So, hands down Snow has to be the best Protoss in this ASL. Fuck off Go look at both of Rain's championship brackets Also, even in the tournaments that he didn't get 1st place in, go look at his matchups and the games he won In all the premiere tournaments, he never placed below Top 8 ASL RO8
ASL 1st place
KSL 3rd place
ASL RO8
KSL 3rd place
ASL 4th place
KSL 1st place
ASL 3rd place
KSL 2nd place
I dont know how you can downplay someone's success on their opponents, you beat who is put in front of you, and the way Rain was INCREDIBLY dominant in the matchup despite it being the 2nd most volatile rock paper scissors matchup in the game under ZvZ was amazing to watch Now go look at Snow's results and Im laughing as I write this with how worse his results and play were compared to Rains
You don't need to throw insults to have a good discussion. Take a second to pause before you post angrily next time please. And I have a right to my opinion, which happens to include the fact that Rain probably could have been considered the top 1 or 2 protoss of all time had he been able to start his Kespa run a few years earlier. He certainly has the innate talent.
Let's take a walk in the past and analyze Bisu's past.
 Bisu was the best PvP during his tournament wins : Rain was the best PvP during his tournament wins
Bisu had bracket luck by consistently getting PvP matches : Rain had bracket luck by consistently getting PvP matches
Had Stork defeated Bisu in tournament matchups he'd be easily considered the GOAT : Had Snow defeated Rain in tournament matchups he'd be considered the best Protoss of the ASL era
Golds:
MSL1: defeats Savior well earned
since then
MSL2: Defeats Stork
MSL3: Defeats BachHo, Defeats Much, Defeats Free, Defeats Jangbi
GOMTV Classic S2: Defeats Jangbi
WCG 2009: Defeats Free, Defeats Stork
Bisu being the greatest PvPer of all time and the bracket luck delivering him Protoss after Protoss is a huge reason for his individual tournament success. If Stork beats Bisu in both finals he's the GOAT, if Jangbi beats Bisu both times he becomes the GOAT. That DOES not take away how good Bisu was during that time period, it just greatly shifts the focus on who was the best during a given time period.
It is in this same perspective that I look at Rain and Snow. Snow during the same time period was the best PvTer, was the only Protoss in nearly a decade to defeat Flash in a boX series (yes you can argue map pool), and posted similar results to Rain. Had he defeated Rain both times he would easily be considered the better protoss of that era.
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an out of shape rain smacking down zero 4-1 in ksl 4 is legendary in my mind. sure, you can blame zero's nerves and say he didn't quite have it together at that point. but i don't remember being as captivated by a pvz series overall since then (from a protoss perspective. there has been plenty of series since then where zerg slaughtered their p opponent.) i think tasteless once described pvz as an intense back and forth boxing match, where the winner narrowly bludgeons his opponent into submission. that series was like rain coming out in a ufc match and just kicking zero on the chin. rain's army movement was like poetry in that series. for example how in game 1 he escorts his high templar across the map with his zealots, casts a few sick storms then immediately morphs two into an archon. lesser players miss those details.
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On September 04 2020 14:53 konadora wrote:a bit off topic but I'm heading to Korea in two weeks for work and I'll be free on weekends. Is there still no live audience?
Nope, in fact in the Greater Seoul area we recently moved up to the '2.5' lockdown level due to new cluster infections. This means a lot of stuff is either closed or has stronger restrictions (for example all coffee shops are now takeout-only). So live audiences are not going to happen any time soon
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Bisutopia19381 Posts
On September 05 2020 08:48 ShloobeR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2020 14:53 konadora wrote:a bit off topic but I'm heading to Korea in two weeks for work and I'll be free on weekends. Is there still no live audience? Nope, in fact in the Greater Seoul area we recently moved up to the '2.5' lockdown level due to new cluster infections. This means a lot of stuff is either closed or has stronger restrictions (for example all coffee shops are not takeout-only). So live audiences are not going to happen any time soon
That being said you are well known enough that you should be invited to the studio. If you need me to talk to afreeca staff for you please send a PM.
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Can someone upload the mappack to a better place? I get an error on that official link.
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EPT
