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On December 08 2017 01:52 tanngard wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2017 01:30 Netto. wrote:On December 08 2017 01:20 tanngard wrote:On December 08 2017 01:01 Incomplete..ReV wrote:On December 07 2017 23:48 geod wrote:The fact is just some guys got entertained and make every reason whatever it is to defend their hero (or clown). www.youtube.comNeymar just did a rainbow trick, yes it was just a rainbow trick and all Athletic Bilbao player become very angry at him. After the match, Athletic coach Ernesto Valverde also claimed Neymar, who is coming towards the end of his second season with the Catalan giants, needs to learn that such gestures will not be tolerated in Spain. No one dared to say Neymar has right to do it even Enrique - Barca's coach. Do you get the point? In case you don't the point is you western nerds should try to learn some basics of your own culture first before saying anything about other cultures. And no what Larva did will not be accepted anywhere in the world by the public. Honestly, if people are so touchy that they can't handle something like that, that's their problem. They are the ones who need to grow up, if they can't have any fun or anything like that at all. Yes off course, they need to grow up and become more like Larva. I see grown ups behaving like Larva all time! (i hope you get my sarcasm) You missed the point pretty badly. Or maybe you ignored it on purpose, since it is really hard to miss. I don't know. People are different and cultures are different, some are more sensitive on issues like the one we are discussing in this thread, some are not. But people are clearly different, right? So what would you do in this life where people are different? Hurt other people and then dont care about their feelings and clear your self of any responsibility by blaming the offended for being immature? How is that fair? I could easily counter with saying that a real grown up is someone who are aware about this difference in sensitivity and developes strategies to prevent hurting other people. That is what creates a better society where we can exist toghether, despite our differences. Is that not what a grown up should care the most about? Please show me how i am missing the "point badly" I guess i should just "grow up" and tell people to stop being sensitive whenever it suits me!
Where do you draw the line for this. The matter of fact is that pretty much anything you do or say could be offensive for someone. Wherever you draw it, it's probably pretty arbitrary just like the other way around (i bet noone would say we should just be able to insult each other all the time and people need to grow up there when they are offended)
Personally i tend more towards the belief of people who think that it's not my business to make sure that noone can be offended. Think about Hitchens whatever you want but i think this is still a great quote:
"Those who are determined to be ‘offended’ will discover a provocation somewhere. We cannot possibly adjust enough to please the fanatics, and it is degrading to make the attempt"
With that being said, i can understand why Legend would be offended. What i don't understand is people being offended who share his nationality or like him otherwise. That's pretty absurd to me and them getting angry should have zero impact on anything.
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On December 08 2017 01:52 tanngard wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2017 01:30 Netto. wrote:On December 08 2017 01:20 tanngard wrote:On December 08 2017 01:01 Incomplete..ReV wrote:On December 07 2017 23:48 geod wrote:The fact is just some guys got entertained and make every reason whatever it is to defend their hero (or clown). www.youtube.comNeymar just did a rainbow trick, yes it was just a rainbow trick and all Athletic Bilbao player become very angry at him. After the match, Athletic coach Ernesto Valverde also claimed Neymar, who is coming towards the end of his second season with the Catalan giants, needs to learn that such gestures will not be tolerated in Spain. No one dared to say Neymar has right to do it even Enrique - Barca's coach. Do you get the point? In case you don't the point is you western nerds should try to learn some basics of your own culture first before saying anything about other cultures. And no what Larva did will not be accepted anywhere in the world by the public. Honestly, if people are so touchy that they can't handle something like that, that's their problem. They are the ones who need to grow up, if they can't have any fun or anything like that at all. Yes off course, they need to grow up and become more like Larva. I see grown ups behaving like Larva all time! (i hope you get my sarcasm) You missed the point pretty badly. Or maybe you ignored it on purpose, since it is really hard to miss. I don't know. People are different and cultures are different, some are more sensitive on issues like the one we are discussing in this thread, some are not. But people are clearly different, right? So what would you do in this life where people are different? Hurt other people and then dont care about their feelings and clear your self of any responsibility by blaming the offended for being immature? How is that fair? I could easily counter with saying that a real grown up is someone who are aware about this difference in sensitivity and developes strategies to prevent hurting other people. That is what creates a better society where we can exist toghether, despite our differences. Is that not what a grown up should care the most about? Please show me how i am missing the "point badly" I guess i should just "grow up" and tell people to stop being sensitive whenever it suits me!
Yes, people are different. Some differences I may not like, but I don't have a problem with them. Pushing someone over for doing a fancy trick, or getting pissed off because someone made some show during a show match in a relaxed atmosphere - these are things that are quite frankly below par.
And seemingly it's not so much about being condescending. As Lx states, he didn't have a problem with the nuke and such. There was just some magical line between what you do inside the game and outside of it. So it's seemingly not even about being condescending or hurtful.
His rethoric was also very, very strong. He smiled and shook hands, and in accordance with what he said about the nukes and such, he meant it. It seems as though it wasn't until he figured out about the foot and sleeping that he got mad. If it was hurtful, there are better ways of handling it. I'm not going to state that you're a child for finding it embarassing or even hurtful. But the way one acts on it is what I find defining to a character - something I find goes beyond culture.
Putting your foot on the keyboard isn't something grown-ups do. But it's what a showman does during a show.
Calling someone a retarded monkey (I am however taking that phrase with a pinch of salt, in case it's poorly translated) isn't how a grown person handles anger. But instead, contacting the person who's done the hurting and then talk it out. Needing some time to calm down and such is fine. Heck, even having a blowout can be accepted, so long as you fix it in the aftermath. But I have yet to see any of it.
Culture really has very little to do with it. What hurts you isn't the core of the case. It's how you handle being hurt. That honestly has more to do with maturity, than any cultural differences.
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I don't know that it's so much about being offended as it is about expectations of who would turn off the broadcast when they see a man putting his bare foot on the equipment. If people turn off the broadcast, or simply decide not to tune in for future, then good luck boosting e-sports into mainstream.
Even if a large part of it is about the offensive nature, the point about drawing in a mainstream crowd is still highly relevant.
Keep in mind that the current atmosphere has positioned e-sports in the same conversation as the olympics.
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Everyone saw the same thing. One portion of the population felt pain watching someone being humiliated in front of a large audience. Another portion didn't feel anything, and maybe enjoyed it. I think most arguments about ethics etc, are just ways to justify and explain that initial gut reaction. It's as if half the population can't smell and insisted the other half stop complaining about a foul odor.
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Its not okay to humiliate ANYONE, not for personal gain, not for views or for fun
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Why do you assume he was trying to humiliate Legend?
Some people just try to be funny and misfire
And judging by his stream Larva is just that - an entertainer/comedian and that's his job
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On December 08 2017 06:03 LemOn wrote:
Why do you assume he was trying to humiliate Legend?
Some people just try to be funny and misfire
And judging by his stream Larva is just that - an entertainer/comedian and that's his job
Intent and result are two different terms.
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Indeed. If you are in the comedy/entertainment business you will get unexpected result from some perspectives on a regular basis. And streamers are just that.
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Faceless and boring Korean player strikes again.
User was warned for this post
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On December 08 2017 02:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2017 01:52 tanngard wrote:On December 08 2017 01:30 Netto. wrote:On December 08 2017 01:20 tanngard wrote:On December 08 2017 01:01 Incomplete..ReV wrote:On December 07 2017 23:48 geod wrote:The fact is just some guys got entertained and make every reason whatever it is to defend their hero (or clown). www.youtube.comNeymar just did a rainbow trick, yes it was just a rainbow trick and all Athletic Bilbao player become very angry at him. After the match, Athletic coach Ernesto Valverde also claimed Neymar, who is coming towards the end of his second season with the Catalan giants, needs to learn that such gestures will not be tolerated in Spain. No one dared to say Neymar has right to do it even Enrique - Barca's coach. Do you get the point? In case you don't the point is you western nerds should try to learn some basics of your own culture first before saying anything about other cultures. And no what Larva did will not be accepted anywhere in the world by the public. Honestly, if people are so touchy that they can't handle something like that, that's their problem. They are the ones who need to grow up, if they can't have any fun or anything like that at all. Yes off course, they need to grow up and become more like Larva. I see grown ups behaving like Larva all time! (i hope you get my sarcasm) You missed the point pretty badly. Or maybe you ignored it on purpose, since it is really hard to miss. I don't know. People are different and cultures are different, some are more sensitive on issues like the one we are discussing in this thread, some are not. But people are clearly different, right? So what would you do in this life where people are different? Hurt other people and then dont care about their feelings and clear your self of any responsibility by blaming the offended for being immature? How is that fair? I could easily counter with saying that a real grown up is someone who are aware about this difference in sensitivity and developes strategies to prevent hurting other people. That is what creates a better society where we can exist toghether, despite our differences. Is that not what a grown up should care the most about? Please show me how i am missing the "point badly" I guess i should just "grow up" and tell people to stop being sensitive whenever it suits me! Where do you draw the line for this. The matter of fact is that pretty much anything you do or say could be offensive for someone. Wherever you draw it, it's probably pretty arbitrary just like the other way around (i bet noone would say we should just be able to insult each other all the time and people need to grow up there when they are offended) Personally i tend more towards the belief of people who think that it's not my business to make sure that noone can be offended. Think about Hitchens whatever you want but i think this is still a great quote: "Those who are determined to be ‘offended’ will discover a provocation somewhere. We cannot possibly adjust enough to please the fanatics, and it is degrading to make the attempt" With that being said, i can understand why Legend would be offended. What i don't understand is people being offended who share his nationality or like him otherwise. That's pretty absurd to me and them getting angry should have zero impact on anything.
I dont actually mean that people being offended in general always have a good enough reason to be so. At least not in the sense of making accusations on the intent of the person offending them. Thats why i said i could just as easily frame the problem from the complete oppostie corner and still have my argument be as logical sound as the people blaming the ones offended for not being mature enough. And there is a lot of people saying just that in this thread about Lx and others who defend him. And i am kind of tired of people blaming the ones offended for being too sensitive. It can work as a tactic that eventually keeps pushing the borders for what is acceptable, because to resist is to automatically be put in the category of someone who is weak or immature
I have already made myself pretty clear about what i think about the whole matter in several comments some pages back in this thread. But thank you for your reasonable response.
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On December 08 2017 07:35 LemOn wrote:
Indeed. If you are in the comedy/entertainment business you will get unexpected result from some perspectives on a regular basis. And streamers are just that.
Right, but if you are into comedy and you do a bunch of racial jokes for an activist crowd, you're an idiot.
You tailor comedy to your audience - and if you get big enough that you have your own show you do whatever you want.
I'm of the opinion that Larva crossed a line, but the viewership he got was worth it from a non-chinese perspective.
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Incomplete..ReV,
i can see some points and premises to where i could start an discussion with you, where i could offer counter-arguments. But am tired of this discussion as i have already posted several comments and participated in a longer discussion some pages back where i have.already touched upon these same complex concepts. Sorry, but i just cannot spend more time on this. No hard feelings i hope.
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On December 08 2017 08:07 highsis wrote:
Faceless and boring Korean player strikes again.
Larva is anything but a faceless and boring Korean player, you must not watch Korean Broodwar at all.
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On December 08 2017 08:47 tanngard wrote:
Incomplete..ReV,
i can see some points and premises to where i could start an discussion with you, where i could offer counter-arguments. But am tired of this discussion as i have already posted several comments and participated in a longer discussion some pages back where i have.already touched upon these same complex concepts. Sorry, but i just cannot spend more time on this. No hard feelings i hope.
None at all =)
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“An entire sea of water can’t sink a ship unless it gets inside the ship. Similarly, the negativity of the world can’t put you down unless you allow it to get inside you.”
― Goi Nasu
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What you guys don't know.
Legend took a bunch of photos of the players he was going to play at this event, posted them in his weibo account, called them losers and said he will own all of them. This was two days before he ranted at Larva because of the latter's 'insults' at the event. You ask me, I'll say that Legend deserved it 100% for karmic retribution.
It's like pot calling the kettle black, except Legend made a big scene and the CN SJWs and news outlets were eager to lap all his nonsense up.
And unlike Larva who wrote about apologizing to Legend, I don't see the latter apologizing to anyone, including players and fans he insulted.
It's hard to take CN seriously when so many of them are two-faced. I really don't get why they keep doing this when it just hurts their reputation.
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That post count has me suspicious. Did Legend really say that stuff before hand? Is there proof of that at all?
Kinda sounds like you're just trolling at the moment.
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Lol he's not trolling.. I posted the same thing in this thread w/ links to his weibo account already.
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It's not clear to me exactly why Legend reacted the way he did, but it seems pretty clear that Larva didn't mean to disrespect Lx (or if he did, his followup seems like it was well intentioned). Even though Lx shittalked the foreigners on his Chinese weibo, foot play is probably a whole different level, and you have to remember that this happened to Lx on a public tournament.
(If Larva foot-played vs me in a private 1v1, that would be awesome. If Larva foot-played vs me on live television in front of all my fellow countrymen, I'm not sure how I'd feel about that :D. It might feel a little too much like someone else having a joke at my expense.)
It's plausible to me that Lx was a reasonable guy who flew all the way to the event and felt like he got really disrespected. It's also plausible to me that Lx is a thin-skinned guy who can dish it out but can't take it in. Honestly, I don't think we have the information to know. My guess is that he probably felt like he lost face (丟臉) and in Chinese culture, face is everything. This is just a guess though. Imo that aspect of Chinese culture ruins a lot of good things, but that's something beyond the scope of this scandal.
Fwiw I really, really enjoyed Larva's play and found it hilarious. It's one of those things that became legend (BA DUM CHHH) w/ my friends overnight. It makes sense that Lx felt disrespected, but like a jerk I'm glad it happened :D. I do feel a little bad for Legend, not for the foot incident, but since Larva really just dished down the hurt all series long :O
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EPT
