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Bisutopia19225 Posts
Why dream teams fail
We catch ourselves among many drooling on the idea of complete domination. Each one of us has hoped our team could pay for every great player to be on their roster. That wish was granted for many fans of the Miami heat, who in turn failed to win an NBA championship. Alongside has been the supreme roster of the Yankees that have for the past two years done nothing in the playoffs.
Take a look at movies these days, the ones that can gather the budget to put up four or five great movie stars in a casting role. Put Pam Grier, John Cleese, Randy Quaid, and Eddie Murphy into a $100 million dollar movie and you would expect an instant classic. Instead we were graced with, “The Adventures of Pluto Nash”, only banking 7.1 million worldwide.
The idea of a “dream team” has become an irresistible. Most of the population has become obsessed with theory crafting what outcomes would be like if their team had ‘X’ and ‘Y’ star put together. Putting Alex Rodriquez, Derek Jeter, and Roger Clemens on an ACE team doesn’t knock the ball out of the park, but leaves the U.S.A losing out to Canada!
Commonly, we find ourselves watching teams take the “Royal Road.” A group of cohesive unknown individuals the bond together to make amazing results happen. In 1980, we saw the most unlikely group of players under the coaching of Herb Brooks, lead the USA men’s hockey team to win the Olympic gold that year.
FORTUNE Magazine states - "Some of the worst teams I've ever seen have been those where everybody was a potential CEO," says David Nadler, chief of the Mercer Delta consulting firm, who has worked with executive teams at top global companies for more than 30 years. "If there's a zero-sum game called succession going on, it's very difficult to have an effective team."
So how does a group of stars become such a strong team? There has to be a line of succession. The groups of individuals have to be willing to bond under the leadership of another. However, during the development of leadership there is one fundamental element above all that is important to the success of a winning team, and that is “TRUST.” Attend any seminar on team building and this is the first lesson that will be taught. If people believe a teammate is not putting in equal effort, withholding information, or incompetent then nothing can be accomplished. There is a term describe this effect called “Dysergy”. Its definition states that putting one and one together will only equal two, with luck. Putting together a dream team starts the players off at a disadvantage. They can only trust the people they are close to. Sure it may cause a blood thirst to compete better than everyone else in the room, but that helps only the individual to make strides and succeed on their own.
“It’s too hard to build trust more extensively at the top level, where everyone is supposedly a star,” states Berkshire Hathaway.
Tolerating Competing Agendas- You’re dream team has now been formed and everyone has their areas of weakness or their own set of goals. As an individual, a star has the opportunity to improve on his own aspect to become a better player. The star also can use their strengths to accomplish goals and gain merits while leaving the rest of the team in the dust. Alex Rodriguez may ask Roger Clemens for help needing practice against right handed pitchers, while Clemens only wants to practice against Left handed batters all week. Sure A-Rod can find some back up pitcher or machine to hit against, but that leaves A-Rod without trust the Clemens will help him and also loses the opportunity to hit against one of the best pitchers in the league.
Behind the scenes for an all-star team can look very ugly. Conflicts among players can grow quickly and that will effect practice and team performance. I really liked this example of overcoming a situation in which coaching your team correctly allowed a great resolution to a team conflict.
CNN – “Col. Stas Preczewski, coach of the Army crew at West Point a few years ago, faced a baffling problem. Through extensive testing, he had developed objective criteria to rank his rowers. He then put the eight best - his dream team - in the varsity boat and the eight others in the junior varsity boat.
The problem: The JV beat the varsity two-thirds of the time. The situation, as explained in a Harvard Business School case, was that the varsity was full of resentment over who was contributing most, while the JV, feeling they had nothing to lose, supported one another happily.
One day Preczewski lined up the varsity crew in four pairs. He told them they were to wrestle - no punching - for 90 seconds. There were no clear winners: Each man was discovering that his opponent was just as strong and determined as he was. Preczewski then had them change opponents and wrestle again. By the third round they were choosing their own opponents - "One guy would point at another and say, 'You!'" Preczewski says. Finally, one of the rowers started laughing, and they all piled into a general brawl. Eventually someone said, "Coach, can we go row now?" From then on, the varsity boat flew.”
This story is a refreshing look at how to address the real issues in your team. Sometimes you have to roll your sleeves up and wrestle it out.
So what is this all about? The Kespa “Dream” Team.
Already we envision this team to be a dominating force in Proleague. Oz already provides one of the greatest ACE’s of all time Jaedong to the field and the newer, up and coming zerg Killer. Combine this with Sea from MBCGame and Baby from WeMadeFox, the future looks unbeatable. The Dream Team is the Philadelphia Eagles right now, but they still have the advantage of proving to all us that they are a legit team. But how can we determine that this team will do any good? Have you taken a look at the team soccer picture with Kespa 8 players sleeping on one another in the SUV? Doesn’t it seem like they have already fallen in love with each other.
The Kespa 8 team is in a situation all other Dream Teams in our history have never had. The proleague season is volatile and they must get sponsors to remain together. Each one of them was without a job or a team for over two months! No doubt, they have each other lighting a fire under their butts in order to practice day and night.
Another advantage Kespa 8 has given themselves is great leadership. Starting with coach Hoon, this man really knows how to win. Not just win, but rally and inspire players to be great. It’s clear he started in the right direction by establishing a team captain. Appointing Jaehoon let’s all the players know that they have at least one player they can question when in need. The second thing Hoon did was conduct an in-house tournament among the players. This allowed the players to earn the respect of those they have beaten and appreciate those who are better than them. There isn’t a clearer sign of ranking then a good old fashioned Brood War brawl.
How will this end? Plenty of history tells us Dream Teams are in fact, dreams. But I believe that with Kespa 8 there is a balance of cuteness, determination, and bond that will grow deeper for the players and the fans as we shed tears watching the new proleague play out. Good luck Kespa 8, prove history wrong!
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I, for one, like to dream.
Team 8 fighting!
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You should send this to the Philadelphia Eagles.
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I think BW progamers lack the divisive egos that can ruin other dream teams. Their self-sacrificing mentality for the benefit of the group is deeply ingrained in Korean culture.
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On November 16 2011 07:13 rift wrote:
I think BW progamers lack the divisive egos that can ruin other dream teams.
Yeah, collectivist cultures like Korean culture are different from individualist ones like US.
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I don't think most of the examples are really relevant, since BW is essentially a series of 1v1 games, and the skills of each player are that much more additive to the strength of the overall team.
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I thought CJ was the dream team.
Effort + Hydra
Horang2 + Movie
Leta
I don't see how any team's top 5 can compete, not to mention Snow as a solid 6th. Though JD, Killer, Sea, Baby, and Jaehoon is pretty close.
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Yes your right, Dream Team 8 will fail like the US Basketballteam at Olympic Games '92 with Jordan, Magic Johnson, Bird, Pippen and Movies like Oceans Eleven with George Clooney, Matt Damon, Brad Pitt, Julia Roberts, Andy Garcia or like Barcelona with Messi, Iniesta, Xavi.
You see, it can go well, even with many stars. It might happen or not. And i dont think Team 8 will win every game. If you look at their winningspercentages, they will win around 60% of their games 
I for myself hope Team 8 is dominating along with SKT, rivalry for more hype and thrilling league, and Jaedong will dominate every opponent and become the best player of all time (which he already is :p)
But at the end: JUST START THE DAMN PL SEASON!!!!11
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Champion Team > Team of Champions
That being said, GO TEAM 8! :D
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Thanks for the good read and hype! I can't wait later this week for PL Dream Team or not, I'm just happy professional BW will be back in my daily schedule
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Bisutopia19225 Posts
On November 16 2011 07:26 greenelve wrote:Yes your right, Dream Team 8 will fail like the US Basketballteam at Olympic Games '92 with Jordan, Magic Johnson, Bird, Pippen and Movies like Oceans Eleven with George Clooney, Matt Damon, Brad Pitt, Julia Roberts, Andy Garcia or like Barcelona with Messi, Iniesta, Xavi. You see, it can go well, even with many stars. It might happen or not. And i dont think Team 8 will win every game. If you look at their winningspercentages, they will win around 60% of their games I for myself hope Team 8 is dominating along with SKT, rivalry for more hype and thrilling league, and Jaedong will dominate every opponent and become the best player of all time (which he already is :p) But at the end: JUST START THE DAMN PL SEASON!!!!11
How could a movie starring Brad Pitt, George Clooney, Catherine Zeta-Jones, and Julia Roberts, directed by Steven Soderbergh, get tepid reviews and gross less worldwide than the star-free My Big Fat Greek Wedding? That movie was Ocean's Twelve.
Like you said, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. My whole post wasn't about proving to you that every team fails, but why did they fail.
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On November 16 2011 07:24 Crisium wrote:
I thought CJ was the dream team.
Effort+ Hydra
Horang2 + Movie
Leta
I don't see how any team's top 5 can compete, not to mention Snow as a solid 6th. Though JD, Killer, Sea, Baby, and Jaehoon is pretty close.
What?? Hydra, Horang2, Movie? Pssshh ... lol
On November 16 2011 07:32 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 07:26 greenelve wrote:Yes your right, Dream Team 8 will fail like the US Basketballteam at Olympic Games '92 with Jordan, Magic Johnson, Bird, Pippen and Movies like Oceans Eleven with George Clooney, Matt Damon, Brad Pitt, Julia Roberts, Andy Garcia or like Barcelona with Messi, Iniesta, Xavi. You see, it can go well, even with many stars. It might happen or not. And i dont think Team 8 will win every game. If you look at their winningspercentages, they will win around 60% of their games I for myself hope Team 8 is dominating along with SKT, rivalry for more hype and thrilling league, and Jaedong will dominate every opponent and become the best player of all time (which he already is :p) But at the end: JUST START THE DAMN PL SEASON!!!!11 How could a movie starring Brad Pitt, George Clooney, Catherine Zeta-Jones, and Julia Roberts, directed by Steven Soderbergh, get tepid reviews and gross less worldwide than the star-free My Big Fat Greek Wedding? That movie was Ocean's Twelve. Like you said, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. My whole post wasn't about proving to you that every team fails, but why did they fail.
I think Oceans 12 sucked because Oceans 11 sucked too?
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You don't understand. This isn't any ordinary Dream Team. This is THE DREAM TEAM.
What I mean by that is, every player had their former team shut down, and they want to continue playing BW. Some took pay cuts just so they could keep enjoying the game. They're not thinking about anything else, they just want to play. They aren't even afraid of losing. And when when you're not afraid to lose, that's when you can play your best.
Ultimately, this isn't just about the Dream Team. The success of Broodwar in the coming years partly depends on this very Dream Team.
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You can't compare with those other dream teams because they all require teamwork and cooperation. Obviously BW teams require some cooperation but nowhere near as much as basketball or a business team.
For example, if tennis had teams that competed in a series of 1v1 matches, and you put the top 5 players in the world on a team, I could pretty much guarantee that that team would own all the other teams.
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On November 16 2011 07:56 Enervate wrote:
You can't compare with those other dream teams because they all require teamwork and cooperation. Obviously BW teams require some cooperation but nowhere near as much as basketball or a business team.
For example, if tennis had teams that competed in a series of 1v1 matches, and you put the top 5 players in the world on a team, I could pretty much guarantee that that team would own all the other teams.
The history of the Ryder Cup proves otherwise. The US usually has the higher ranking golfers but the results don't bear that out. While the US team routinely has the advantage in the 1v1 matches, the results are still pretty bad considering their talent level.
The Eagles are 3-6 because they share the same problem that the Heat did during the Finals, consistent 4th quarter collapses. The weight of expectations can get to even some of the best players sometimes.
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I wanted to disagree with the first part using the exact same points you showed in the second part ^_^
Yeah, I agree about the danger of dream teams in general, but again, I agree Team 8 is most probably saved from them.
Now let us see how fast they recover and progress
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Jaedong, Sea, Baby and Killer make a dream team? I wouldn't even say it's the best team skillwise right now.
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On November 16 2011 07:33 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 07:24 Crisium wrote:
I thought CJ was the dream team.
Effort+ Hydra
Horang2 + Movie
Leta
I don't see how any team's top 5 can compete, not to mention Snow as a solid 6th. Though JD, Killer, Sea, Baby, and Jaehoon is pretty close. What?? Hydra, Horang2, Movie? Pssshh ... lol
Records from 10-11 SPL (not including SWL)
Hydra: 26-12
Horang2: 21-11
Movie: 18-10
Combined: 65-33 (66.3% win rate)
Records from SWL
Hydra: 6-5
Horang2: 6-5
Movie: 13-8
Combined: 25-18 (58.1% win rate)
You were saying?
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Don't forget Jaehoon. He was a top dog toss last year.
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someone made a point about Eastern cultures being more about the group than the individual than in Western cultures; think it would be a very interesting observation to study and see if the stereotype holds up to scrutiny.
You know, I don't think this is a bad observation at all. The pressure of a new team plus trying to get a sponsor will have to have some effect on the team, regardless of culture. Plus changing living arrangements and moving in with people you may not know very well could also create some friction that we may not see in the matches themselves.
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On November 16 2011 08:30 xxpack09 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 07:33 aimaimaim wrote:On November 16 2011 07:24 Crisium wrote:
I thought CJ was the dream team.
Effort+ Hydra
Horang2 + Movie
Leta
I don't see how any team's top 5 can compete, not to mention Snow as a solid 6th. Though JD, Killer, Sea, Baby, and Jaehoon is pretty close. What?? Hydra, Horang2, Movie? Pssshh ... lol Records from 10-11 SPL (not including SWL) Hydra: 26-12 Horang2: 21-11 Movie: 18-10 Combined: 65-33 (66.3% win rate) Records from SWL Hydra: 6-5 Horang2: 6-5 Movie: 13-8 Combined: 25-18 (58.1% win rate) You were saying?
Yes. And now look whom Movie and Horang2 beat.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
This was a great read. Thanks.
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On November 16 2011 08:31 Crisium wrote:
Don't forget Jaehoon. He was a top dog toss last year.
lolwut? Top dog by what standard? Towards the end of the season he eeked into the top 10 Protoss, but that's about it. Even so, what high level vP players has he beaten? I count exactly one significant win post SWL.
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There isn't nearly as much team work (pretty much none when actually in game) in Starcraft compared to Basketball or Baseball. Like, Jaedong can still dominate even when his team sucks. He can probably still dominate on a good team (*erhm* will).
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On November 16 2011 08:55 mikyaJ wrote:
There isn't nearly as much team work (pretty much none when actually in game) in Starcraft compared to Basketball or Baseball. Like, Jaedong can still dominate even when his team sucks. He can probably still dominate on a good team (*erhm* will).
Quality practice is a team venture. Jangbi's interview after the OSL was telling on how important Khan's support was in prepping for the OSL (Thanks to them we got one of the best OSL finals to watch )
Not to mention internal build orders and such
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I don't think there's any rule that teams made up of great players have to fail. Your example of a bunch of movie stars being paid a ludicrous amount of money for their sheer name value and producing a crappy film is really off base. It doesn't fit as a comparison to Brood War Progamers whose careers depend on their success.
I can't guarantee victory, but I know team 8 has A LOT going for it. A coach and players who desperately have something to prove. Players fighting for their very careers. Players who are more dedicated than your normal progamers in a lot of cases... The team chemistry from the interviews has looked positive (however much you want to trust that information. Overall the players want to rebuild themselves and are being reminded of their early days.
vs something like what used to be said about KT when they'd pay very famous players a lot of money to come to their side. Honestly it worked better than people admit, but if you could say the players got worse, they had much greater feelings of security and huge paycheques.
Team eight has fire. Jaedong is the only real super dreamteamy kind of guy. It's not like we put Flash Bisu and Jaedong all on one team and paid them a million dollars and said 'we trust you.' Although you're out of your mind if you don't think those players would do well anyway... Like I said.. Not really comparable to having a movie with a bunch of cameo's/roles no one cares about/a story no one cares about. A dream team of actors but a hack writer and director? Clearly the dream team is missing fundamentals there. But Team Eight has its fundamentals. It's only disadvantages are maybe the working environment is not as good as it should be, and they don't have a million b teamers to pick on. Who knows how that will affect them, but I'd say it's much more worrisome than 'oh we've got a lot of good players and there's a few random historical examples of good players not always equating success (but not really).'
Thanks for the effort, but I have to make that criticism It's good to have fun discussions like this regardless.
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Good effort but I laugh at your idea of Team 8 being a dream team.
The closest thing broodwar has ever had to a dream team was Ideal Space and KTF Magic N's. You could argue IS went on to be successful, and the KT system brought about the most dominant player of all time and current bonjwa Flash.
The attempt at analogies like Miami heat and NY Yankees was ok I guess....but it doesn't translate to broodwar, and especially not to team 8.
Any fan of bw progaming who has followed it for a long time would have a way different lineup as their ' dream team ' even if they only chose from current progamers.
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On November 16 2011 08:38 mtn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 08:30 xxpack09 wrote:On November 16 2011 07:33 aimaimaim wrote:On November 16 2011 07:24 Crisium wrote:
I thought CJ was the dream team.
Effort+ Hydra
Horang2 + Movie
Leta
I don't see how any team's top 5 can compete, not to mention Snow as a solid 6th. Though JD, Killer, Sea, Baby, and Jaehoon is pretty close. What?? Hydra, Horang2, Movie? Pssshh ... lol Records from 10-11 SPL (not including SWL) Hydra: 26-12 Horang2: 21-11 Movie: 18-10 Combined: 65-33 (66.3% win rate) Records from SWL Hydra: 6-5 Horang2: 6-5 Movie: 13-8 Combined: 25-18 (58.1% win rate) You were saying? Yes. And now look whom Movie and Horang2 beat.
Yeah... Fantasy, Stork, Stats, Shuttle, Bisu, Jaedong and Killer are completely horrendous versus Protoss, after all... Obviously Horang2 is complete trash and didn't have a single legitimate win all season. >.>
Movie had a pretty easy road to his record, but Horang2 beat some damn good players last season. :/
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Bisutopia19225 Posts
On November 16 2011 09:25 Ack1027 wrote:
Good effort but I laugh at your idea of Team 8 being a dream team.
The closest thing broodwar has ever had to a dream team was Ideal Space and KTF Magic N's. You could argue IS went on to be successful, and the KT system brought about the most dominant player of all time and current bonjwa Flash.
The attempt at analogies like Miami heat and NY Yankees was ok I guess....but it doesn't translate to broodwar, and especially not to team 8.
Any fan of bw progaming who has followed it for a long time would have a way different lineup as their ' dream team ' even if they only chose from current progamers.
Actually, you're not really laughing at me but the brood war community. I did not designate them the dream team, but that's what they are known as. Of course they have 4 amazing top tier players that have so much but potential, but let's be serious Mr. Ack1027. I'm a friggin SKT fan. Every year of every PL I have the dream team. No doubts, no arguments, in my mind I love every single player and believe they are the best on SKT. Therefore SKT is my dream team, no one else needed.
...But I digress. This article is about a new team that has been marked with so much potential hype and that is where this discussion can derive from. It was, I hope, a non-bias view point on the current situation of this new team.
I fully understand the arguments some of you have made about their matches being played by themselves, but proper training behind the scenes can really prepare you not just physical, but mentally for any battle. Like the person who posted about Jangbi winning the OSL with a very helpful Samsung Khan as his support. Can these player from different teams really rely on each other like that? We'll see if they start winning every game.
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On November 16 2011 07:15 reincremate wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 07:13 rift wrote:
I think BW progamers lack the divisive egos that can ruin other dream teams. Yeah, collectivist cultures like Korean culture are different from individualist ones like US.
And its not like you can ball hog in SC.
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I don't think the "Dream Team" is quite "Dream" enough to have this problem. If you put Flash, Bisu and JD on the same team then yeah, it would probably get awkward, but while Sea, Baby and Killer are great players, it's not quite the same.
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Op is a hater. The Dream Team will get far because It's nothing like those sports you just mentioned. The way BW is played is way more harder mentally and the team has three aces which is unheard of in BW history. So, that being said I'm putting my support behind this team all the way to the finals.
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But they aren't actually playing together on the same map in the same match. So as long as they are all improving individually then they will win. Since they are actually playing against each other in practice I think egos clashing will only benefit their situation.
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![[image loading]](http://www.warriorsworld.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Dream-Team.jpg)
I believe in the dream team!!!
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The comparison of BW can't be made to team sports when team games are no longer in proleague. Also, I don't think the dream team is going to have a problem with their stars fighting over who should be their ace when it's obvious that Jaedong is a step above everyone else in terms of skill. And I think Jaehoon will be a solid captain who will keep the team together, but that's just a hunch.
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Why do "collectivist" societies favor individualist sports more than "individualistic" societies, who love team sports? The Russians have chess, the Chinese table tennis. The koreans - Taekwando? These sports are nothing but hobbies in Western countries.
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On November 16 2011 07:26 greenelve wrote:Yes your right, Dream Team 8 will fail like the US Basketballteam at Olympic Games '92 with Jordan, Magic Johnson, Bird, Pippen and Movies like Oceans Eleven with George Clooney, Matt Damon, Brad Pitt, Julia Roberts, Andy Garcia or like Barcelona with Messi, Iniesta, Xavi. You see, it can go well, even with many stars. It might happen or not. And i dont think Team 8 will win every game. If you look at their winningspercentages, they will win around 60% of their games I for myself hope Team 8 is dominating along with SKT, rivalry for more hype and thrilling league, and Jaedong will dominate every opponent and become the best player of all time (which he already is :p) But at the end: JUST START THE DAMN PL SEASON!!!!11
Very well put Completely agree.
I'm just happy that I won't have to see any "Jaedong Oz" quotes anymore ^^, as Jaedong definitely shouldn't have to carry this team.
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What were the results from the internal tournament?
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I expect team 8 to lose their first 2 games (assuming they play KT and SKT). It's not that I don't have faith in the players, but if u look at the lack of practice over the past few months, their late reception of the maps, and the little amount of prep and practice, it'll be hard to beat the 2 Proleague finalists. I'm not expecting them to just destroy right out of the gate, but I think they will be a strong contender the longer the season goes on.
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Well one thing that separates this Dream Team from the other Dream Teams is that it wasn't really their choice to become a Dream Team, it just happened because their teams just dissolved.
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This is well written but flawed. The comparison to the Eagles is way off. The core players on the Eagles are very talented but none of them are considered the "best" at their positions and none of them have ever won a thing. Team 8 is led by a proven champion and one of the absolute best players to ever play the game. He is surrounded by proven talent that have all proven their worth in proleague and individual leagues. The biggest difference is Jaedong though and he can lead a team like no other which he's proven with Jaedong Oz.
An all star team does indeed present teamwork problems like you suggested. However, when you have an MJ esque presence on that team it does not matter. All other egos and problems get pushed to the side when you have a true alpha male on your team. Make no mistake, this is Jaedong's team and they will follow his humble, confident, and hard working lead.
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This is a logically fallacy for a 1v1 team format. The players don't have to interact with each other in game they are still playing individually. This is just like my wrestling team in high school. The teams that won were those made of the best individual players even if they hated each others guts because a team victory didn't require teamwork.
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A team in BW isn't the same as a team in a company or other sports. What you quoted from Fortune definitely makes sense, but in BW, while players belong to the same team, they still play their own games, so having big stars on a team will on the contrary be a big incentive to win as many games as possible.
The analogy could work if they were playing a 4v4 I think. You could have TBLS in a same 4v4 team, each of them trying to be cute and show he's the best of the four, while the lower tier opponent will simply have a solid team play and wreck them. But since they actually play their own 1v1, they'll try their best to shine instead.
Stork used to be Khan's indisputable boss and went playing mobile phone games. Now that Jangbi won an OSL, and they recruited two decent zergs, I predict Stork to train harder and kick butts.
A real dream team in BW would simply be unbeatable. Of course there can always be some upsets, but a team composed of TBLS + EffOrt back in shape + Fantasy would just be invincible.
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This team was basically forced together from others disbanding. It's just a different situation than teams trying to get players - these players want a team. Also, what everyone else is saying: they're playing individual matches.
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People saying BW is an individual competition and thus teamwork and synergy don't matter are overlooking how important practice is. When you read winner's interviews pay attention to who the elite players thank for practicing with them, it's always the scrubiest of scrubs. Team 8 has no B team to use as their practice bitches. You think Baby is suddenly gonna become a TvZ beast practicing with Jaedong? If Baby went to Jaedong and said 'hey could you do build X cuz I wanna try come up with a counter for it' Jaedong is just gonna be like 'bitch watchu talkin about I got a finals against Flash coming up. You do the build I tell you to do, not the other way around." When the Kespa 4 are all in the OSL they will be too focused preparing for their individual matches and thus their team results will suffer.
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On November 16 2011 12:19 red4ce wrote:
People saying BW is an individual competition and thus teamwork and synergy don't matter are overlooking how important practice is. When you read winner's interviews pay attention to who the elite players thank for practicing with them, it's always the scrubiest of scrubs. Team 8 has no B team to use as their practice bitches. You think Baby is suddenly gonna become a TvZ beast practicing with Jaedong? If Baby went to Jaedong and said 'hey could you do build X cuz I wanna try come up with a counter for it' Jaedong is just gonna be like 'bitch watchu talkin about I got a finals against Flash coming up. You do the build I tell you to do, not the other way around." When the Kespa 4 are all in the OSL they will be too focused preparing for their individual matches and thus their team results will suffer.
I believe baby can find online B team practice partners but that's all he can only do right now , I can't believe jaedong will react that way to baby lol .
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Alongside has been the supreme roster of the Yankees that have for the past two years done nothing in the playoffs. The fact that this is your example of "failure" is the biggest proof you could have given that dream teams don't fail at all.
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Everyone just shut up and watch what will be on 19th November!!! Jaedong Fighting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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While some people in this thread have made interesting points about why team 8 isn't like the examples noted by the OP, heaps of people are just pointing out why the OP is wrong because the dream team is x, y and z. When the entire point of the OP was that the dream team isn't like other historical examples he gave and will succeed. Jesus.
Anyway OP, nice article and good read. You certainly sparked thought and conversation, even if some people are glaringly missing the point.
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They're all under captain Jaehoon, all is well.
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Team 8 is not really a dream team. It's got only 1 of the TBLS. Maybe you can start calling something a 'dream team' when you have more than 2 of the TBLS together, but even then heh. Team 8 is not going to have the problems you described. JD is clearly the best player. The protoss all come from 1 team. Maybe there's going to be rivalry between Sea and Baby? But I think Sea is an obvious senior / terran ace over baby. Team is pretty balanced and doesn't seem OP at all. On paper it seems comparable to CJ / Khan imo.
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On November 16 2011 12:41 Prince_Stranger wrote:
Everyone just shut up and watch what will be on 19th November!!! Jaedong Fighting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It just became highly unlikely that the 19th will be the start of PL ..
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IMO KT is more of a dream team than JD's team. But I feel like if they have good chemistry, Sea+JD will do very well in helping them to playoffs at least.
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It will be hard to see them lose unless a bunch of them play badly... look at Oz for example, they usually could count on Jaedong to win, maybe Killer or Hiya, maybe one of there young tosses, and then they could force the ace etc.
But with this team, you just need to count on 3 of Jaedong, Killer, Sea, Baby, Jaehoon, Tyson to win, then there's always an ace match...but a lot of teams will have trouble finding the depth to beat that many solid players unless they aren't on top of their games.
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On November 16 2011 14:22 Devise wrote:
It will be hard to see them lose unless a bunch of them play badly... look at Oz for example, they usually could count on Jaedong to win, maybe Killer or Hiya, maybe one of there young tosses, and then they could force the ace etc.
But with this team, you just need to count on 3 of Jaedong, Killer, Sea, Baby, Jaehoon, Tyson to win, then there's always an ace match...but a lot of teams will have trouble finding the depth to beat that many solid players unless they aren't on top of their games.
KT with the drafting of mind we finally found a third reliable player , no longer do we pray , Stats and Flash must win and hope our zerg line's will seal the deal to us so we can go for ace match . Mind is a solid terran player and with flash,mind and stats playing well . I think kt is not going to be easy defeat these year .
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51430 Posts
On November 16 2011 11:33 jyLee wrote:
This is well written but flawed. The comparison to the Eagles is way off. The core players on the Eagles are very talented but none of them are considered the "best" at their positions and none of them have ever won a thing. Team 8 is led by a proven champion and one of the absolute best players to ever play the game. He is surrounded by proven talent that have all proven their worth in proleague and individual leagues. The biggest difference is Jaedong though and he can lead a team like no other which he's proven with Jaedong Oz.
An all star team does indeed present teamwork problems like you suggested. However, when you have an MJ esque presence on that team it does not matter. All other egos and problems get pushed to the side when you have a true alpha male on your team. Make no mistake, this is Jaedong's team and they will follow his humble, confident, and hard working lead.
i agree about the eagles, nnamdi is great, but he's not completely shutdown like revis, mccoy is still not an elite back yet and maclin/djax are overrated.
oh and vick is gutter trash.
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I think this is a great idea. There were a lot of rather weaker teams with mediocre lineups apart from one player. This sort of "trims the fat" for lack of a better word.
A little early to tell.
So fucking hyped for this season.
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well at least it seems like the team is gelling pretty well, with Jaedong finding his new younger brother, and Sea being reinvigorated by the level of his teammates, etc
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Pointless argument because BW is not a team sport. It's more akin to baseball than basketball or football(both kinds). In that players' individual success is what create team success. And that individual success are more or less independent of each other. Yes, there are certainly team factors, but that is very small compared to the most important component of BW - individual play.
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The Heat put three amazing players on one team and they got to the finals. The three players only played together for ONE SEASON, which means they didn't have much time to figure out what they can and can't do together. Dream Teams work, they just don't go undefeated all the time just pretty damn close.
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barcelona does pretty well.
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Teams are more of a practice environment than anything.
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10387 Posts
People are right in that a dream team is different in BW than it is in most team-sports due to matches being composed of a bunch of 1v1s, but this Dream Team's fatal flaw comes from its lack of practice partners rather than huge egos .. With all the maps being new, Team 8's losses will probably be due to map abuses and specially designed sniper strategies.
Once they get a sponsor, establish a real practice environment and figure out the maps well enough, they'll be a fuckin monster
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Two more good sports examples would be the 2003-2004 LA Lakers w/ four future hall of famers in the starting lineup and the Galácticos era of Real Madrid.
On November 16 2011 07:24 Crisium wrote:
I thought CJ was the dream team.
Effort + Hydra
Horang2 + Movie
Leta
I don't see how any team's top 5 can compete, not to mention Snow as a solid 6th. Though JD, Killer, Sea, Baby, and Jaehoon is pretty close.
I agree, I think CJ has a much better team than Team 8. Team 8's real appeal comes from if Jaedong can be a beast like he did when he carried Oz all those years, cos then they other players can put them over the top. If he is just a top player but not a one man army then CJ is much more stacked imo. Having people like Horang2 there to snipe is such a luxury and EffOrt is a huge luxury in his own right since if he gets anywhere close to his old level they will have 3 top tier PL players. Plus their race distribution is really nice. Top players for every race.
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I have an impression some people didn't really read the whole thing...
It says:
1. Dream teams usually fail, because of this and that.
2. Team 8 seem not to be endangered, because of this and that.
3. Let us see, how will they do!
So to all you out there saying "you're wrong, they can make it!", please, read something more than just a title (which doesn't say that Dream team [Team8] fail, but that dream teamS fail.
Top players for every race.
But how it looks like against ace for every race?
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Holy shit are you in a writing frenzy, holy guaccamoly.
I do see your point, but I hope you're wrong
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Good argument, but this team aint a dream team. Its just a team made up with the best players from few average teams. Now its a championship team, but not a dream team. I'd say its on par with skt and kt on terms of star power.
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Bisutopia19225 Posts
On November 16 2011 16:28 Double T wrote:I have an impression some people didn't really read the whole thing... It says: 1. Dream teams usually fail, because of this and that. 2. Team 8 seem not to be endangered, because of this and that. 3. Let us see, how will they do! So to all you out there saying "you're wrong, they can make it!", please, read something more than just a title (which doesn't say that Dream team [Team8] fail, but that dream teamS fail. But how it looks like against ace for every race?
Thank you , I'm glad my thread can illicit discussion, but it is clear some people didn't read the whole article. 5 star post mate.
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
BisuDagger just mad that Dream Team's gonna wreck SKT day 1
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Bisutopia19225 Posts
On November 16 2011 23:10 amazingxkcd wrote:
BisuDagger just mad that Dream Team's gonna wreck SKT day 1
Do you know how much restraint it takes for me not to go GG.No.Re all over the SKT vs K8 LR thread? Lemme tell you, there will be hell to pay if SKT loses this first match. 
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On November 16 2011 23:25 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 23:10 amazingxkcd wrote:
BisuDagger just mad that Dream Team's gonna wreck SKT day 1 Do you know how much restraint it takes for me not to go GG.No.Re all over the SKT vs K8 LR thread? Lemme tell you, there will be hell to pay if SKT loses this first match.
Well, we will just have to wait and see who wins on match day  .
Is PL this Saturday or next Saturday?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Cry2hN-xUQM/ScD1p_gFpdI/AAAAAAAABVo/1EIsWYTdGCc/s400/dream+team.jpg)
