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First off, I should mention that I'm not overvaluing APM as was mentioned before. I realize that APM is not congruent to skill. It's pretty easy to realize when I get utterly owned by people with half my APM. However, APM and skill are positively correlated. A player with 200 APM may or may not be good, whereas a player with 60 APM couldn't possibly be very good. I assume that generally APM comes with experience, and can be somewhat of a judge of experience with the game (or at least the matchup). So here goes:
This set of 50 games was a giant buttraping, with me on the receiving end. I went on a huge losing streak (27 games) and thoughts of giving up BW forever crept into my head. I couldn't believe that I had even won NINE games in my last set of 50, when I could barely win ONE now. I'm pretty good at controlling tilt though; it was one of my strongest qualities when I played poker. Anyway, the stats:
Protoss (1 game)
PvP (1 game) 0-1
APM 101
I'm pretty sure I forgot to change my race, and so I got random or something. I dunno.
ZERG (49 games)
ZvZ (10 games) 0-10 0%
ZvT (22 games) 4-18 18.1%
ZvP (16 games) 2-14 12.5%
Average APM 142
Winrate 12.2%
Average APM of opponent 162
Average APM of opponent when I won 128
I'm 6-43 in the last 50 games (one game was zerg min hacker).
I'm 5-20 in the last 25 games
Thoughts:
So yeah, pretty shitty. In poker, when you go on a bad run, it could be variance, but it's more likely that you have holes in your game you didn't know about. In Starcraft, if you go on a bad run, you have holes in your game, period. The solution is to examine your play and try to fix things. So eventually I realized that I basically had no "game plan" when I played.
ZvT:
If I played against a Terran, I would either overpool or 12hatch. If I overpooled, I would try to get my lings up his ramp (and so far, I've only failed once). Once in, I would just pump speedlings rallied to his base and micro my lings. Eventually I'd have enough money/gas to make a couple lurkers. But I ran into a problem with the build: It's kind of an all-in build. If it gets to the point where I've got lurkers, then either I've basically won with my lings only (in which case taking drones off gas and getting a third hatch for ling pumping would be better), or the Terran has repelled my attack, and I'm so far behind economically that those 2 or 3 lurkers aren't going to save me (in which case, again, lurkers serve no purpose). So I don't think this is a very good build to use regularly, as it's basically an all-in (at least the way I play[ed] it) which wasn't very fun, was inferior economically than other viable builds, and definitely wasn't teaching me anything.
My other option was 12hatch. Generally the Terran's first push with mnm would kill me. I've been getting better at properly defending and scouting when he's moving out. If I manage to live, though, I'm pretty much lost. I have a vague idea that I should muta harass while expanding, switch to lurker tech, and get hive for defilers then ultras. I rarely make it past mutas though, so I'm a bit inexperienced. Although I did manage to pull off a win very recently with a 12hatch against a Terran.
ZvP:
I hate protoss so much. Corsairs, reavers, +1 speedlots, DT, templar w/psi storm. I recently realized that I was playing ZvP wrong thanks to Chill's FP Instructional VODs. But I've got a long way to go. I'm trying out overpool in this matchup as well, and it seems okay so far. It's aggressive enough early to deal with his probe trying to block my hatch and/or zealots just rallying to my base, and forces FE to build a couple cannons. Thanks to iNc's most recent Zerg strategy guide. Still, generally I get raped by +1 speedzeals because I don't get lurkers fast enough.
ZvZ:
I really don't know what to say here. It seems like my opponent is always one step ahead of me. He'll have more lings when it matters, more mutas when it matters, or he'll get mutas just in time to stop my lings when I win a big ling fight. I 12pool standard here (assuming Python).
I really just need practice, and to read some more matchup-specific strategy.
Questions:
[ZvT]
How big of a deal are attack upgrades?
Should I be having 2 evos?
Is it stupid to take a 3rd base before the T's first mnm attack at my nat?
When (if ever) should I get ultras before defilers?
[ZvP]
When do you use mutas in ZvP?
Should lair tech primarily be used as a delay/contain tactic to allow myself to get a 3rd gas and get hive tech for ultras?
[ZvZ]
How many lings/what ling ratio is needed to break through a ramp? A ramp with 6 lings? 10 lings?
Should I ever be getting a 3rd hatch?
Is it worth it to muta micro in a muta battle, or should I spread and focus fire?
Should I even scout with a drone (assuming Python)?
[General]
What's the etiquette situation on bnet? Is gg standard or only for games the person considered good? What would the average bnet player's ICCup rank be?
Constructive criticism, questions, and comments are welcome.
 
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United States17042 Posts
zvp (becuase this is the one i know best):
Mutas are key only when you have the amount of time, and know that the opponent is going zeals,goons, and not anything with sairs (and ideally you hit p before they get ht). Stacked muta get owned by sairs, so obviously going muta requires decent scouting, and making sure the opponent dosen't go sair//dt/reaver. Stacked muta also get owned by ht, although mutas can take down archons given the right amount of time and micro.
Lair Tech can be used for quite a long time in zvp, almost surprisingly long. Lurker Ling for contains, Muta ling as a timing attack, etc. How long you wait to get Hive tech is entirely dependent on what the protoss player is doing, and how many hatches you have. Going from mid to late game is my weakest point however, so i'll let someone else answer this question 
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to answer your question about b.net, it depends what server.
i'm not sure, but,
from what i know.. the skill level goes from east < west < asia. depends what server you play on, and who you bump into.
i have a korean friend that's totally gosu and averages like 250 APM that tells me that Asia Server has plenty of gosu. =S.
but props to finish 50 games. i only managed to play almost 30 this march break, and man did i get raped hard. but i play terran, so i can't exactly help you with your matchup questions that much. plus, i'm not very good at all.
best of luck though ^^.
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Not sure what to say, I'll try to answer these questions, and as you yourself said, practice is invaluable.
On March 17 2008 09:45 Dromar wrote:
Questions:
[ZvT]
How big of a deal are attack upgrades?
Should I be having 2 evos?
Is it stupid to take a 3rd base before the T's first mnm attack at my nat?
When (if ever) should I get ultras before defilers?
[ZvP]
When do you use mutas in ZvP?
Should lair tech primarily be used as a delay/contain tactic to allow myself to get a 3rd gas and get hive tech for ultras?
[ZvZ]
How many lings/what ling ratio is needed to break through a ramp? A ramp with 6 lings? 10 lings?
Should I ever be getting a 3rd hatch?
Is it worth it to muta micro in a muta battle, or should I spread and focus fire?
Should I even scout with a drone (assuming Python)?
Constructive criticism, questions, and comments are welcome.
ZvT.
Attack upgrades are not as important as carapace. Different strategies call for different upgrades. I personally like to get 2 evos and up melee and carapace fairly early in preparation for my ultraling army since I like ultraling in ZvT. But depending on your strat there are different things, like muta ->3rd base ->ultra usually just has 1 evo chamber with carapace for fastest 5 armor ultras possible.
It's not stupid to take a 3rd base before the MM attack on your nat. A lot of times there is no MM attack on your nat so I'm not sure if you're playing only people who 3 rax rush or what, cause in at least 60-70% of games the terran won't attack your nat before you have muta or lurker assuming you read his MM numbers properly and have the right number of sunkens. If you just mean before he sends out the first 10 rines and 2 medics to contain you, then no, it's not stupid, but it is risky. If he doesn't find it, it pays off in spades.
I'm not sure how to answer the ultra/defiler question. There are certain builds that emphasize getting the Ultras with 5 armor out before the Terran has 3 attack, because 5 armor ultras just rape marines. It depends on your base count I guess, if you're low on resources or going for a low resource fast defiler build then obviously defiler is the best. You usually need to plan for ultras if you're going to be getting them "first" since you'll want the upgrades to make them effective.
[ZvP]
I don't play ZvP, I don't know when to get mutas. However I can say that the lair tech as a delay to get 3rd gas and hive question is too variable to really answer. Again, there are a lot of styles. One is, as you said, spire for scourge, lurker contain -> hive -> ultra ling. Some zerg players like to get 5-6 hatches and 3 evos and mass lurker/hydra/ling, which is very strong if done properly. There's a rep at gosugamers that was recently upped that I just watched, Younga[Kal] vs some other guy, it's a ZvP on Python and it shows some really good late Hive, Lair unit play. I'd recommend watching it.
I won't bother even trying to answer the ZvZ questions cause I don't know enough, as I'm a terran player. Don't do the stacked muta micro vs other mutas though, that just concentrates the bouncing (duh).
Best 1v1 is on West, best team players are on Asia, best shittalkers are on East. You are generally supposed to say GG regardless of it you thought it was good or not, that's just how "bw etiquette" has developed. I usually say gg at the beginning and at the end of the game. It's also regarded as BM if you say GG when winning before your opponent says it.
Average Bnet player ICCUP rank would probably be barely a D+
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Tell us more about game 100
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wow good analysis
(average apm, winrate and stuff)
hive tech comes usually around when you secure your 3rd zvt
attack upgrades are a big deal
there are specific builds that cater to mutas zvp
don't rely solely on hive tech for wins; hydra/lurk/ling is really strong against toss if you macro well
don't overpool... it's a bad build
you should be able to prepare for +1speedzeal because the attack upgrade comes so much faster... just suicide a ling to check if his forge is spinning around 4:30-5:00 (~while your lair is building)
you should defend with mainly hydra+sunk... the attack always comes before lurkers if you're using chill's build
don't drone scout zvz
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On March 17 2008 09:45 Dromar wrote:
[ZvT]
How big of a deal are attack upgrades?
Should I be having 2 evos?
Is it stupid to take a 3rd base before the T's first mnm attack at my nat?
When (if ever) should I get ultras before defilers?
[General]
What's the etiquette situation on bnet? Is gg standard or only for games the person considered good? What would the average bnet player's ICCup rank be?
Ok I'll try to help answer what I can for ZvT
I'm guessing you are talking about melee attack, so they are at least somewhat important. During lurkerling, your lurkers are dealing the most damage, but when you switch to ultraling, zerglings are the damage dealers. If you have 0 attack grades when your opponent is 3-3, you will only do 2 damage to marines. If you have extremely gosu plaguing skills I guess it isn't that important.
I always have two evo chambers. Most Terrans I have watched go 1 ebay +1wep into 2 ebay dual grades. Your first carapace upgrade matches the +1, but now you have to start matching two ebays.
I'm not sure what attack you are talking about but I'll take a guess. If you are talking about the first mnm tank vessel push, then you should have taken the 3rd gas already and be at defiler tech. If you are talking about the 4rax sunken break, then I think your 3rd base hatch should be morphing. iirc, the sunken break should comes right before mutas.
The only time I've seen ultas first was in that weird muta -> ultra build. Besides that I don't know.
The only time I didn't say GG in a game was when I knew my opponent was maphacking and I was frustrated.
I wouldn't agree that the average bnet player is D+. Maybe it is because I have played so few iccup games.
I would put the average bnet pub at D-. Bnet pub games are easy to win, yet I got trashed in my 3 games on iccup at D level. I played all 3 terran mu.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
if i mass gamed on iccup, I'd probably get around the same record lol
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hahah
in like D- or low D, almost every zerg goes early mass lings and all-ins
its really important to scout :D
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You are the man, I mean, you really can stand some badass punishment. I would have tossed my CD out the window after 27 loses (I usually take a break after 7 or so).
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Man if I get three losses in a row I'll usually be annoyed enough to stop playing for a couple days, especially if the third one is to 1 or 2 dts and sairs.
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On March 17 2008 13:32 HotZhot wrote:
You are the man, I mean, you really can stand some badass punishment. I would have tossed my CD out the window after 27 loses (I usually take a break after 7 or so).
Totally agree with this...gj manning up through such a long losing streak. I haven't played poker in almost a year cuz I'm still on tilt. ><
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On March 17 2008 10:30 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Tell us more about game 100
Well? :p
Feel free to ask me for games whenever you see me online, I'll do my best to help an aspiring zerg user!
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On March 17 2008 14:50 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Well? :p Feel free to ask me for games whenever you see me online, I'll do my best to help an aspiring zerg user!
I am intrigued, tell me about this game 100. Oh and were you the one I played that TvZ with where I faked a bunker rush into proxy fact and rushed vults into your main? If so, I wouldn't mind some more games, I'm sure you've improved quite a bit.
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On March 17 2008 15:24 Dr.Dragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2008 14:50 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:On March 17 2008 10:30 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Tell us more about game 100 Well? :p Feel free to ask me for games whenever you see me online, I'll do my best to help an aspiring zerg user! I am intrigued, tell me about this game 100. Oh and were you the one I played that TvZ with where I faked a bunker rush into proxy fact and rushed vults into your main? If so, I wouldn't mind some more games, I'm sure you've improved quite a bit.
Yeah probably. You proxied the factory right below the cliff to my main (@ 12 on Python), then flew it in. I think there was an observer in that game.
Game 100 was a ZvZ against ShaLLoW on Blue Storm. Since it's a 2 player map, a more aggressive build order was needed. We both opened with an overpool, but after that ShaLLoW's build was superior. Obviously the build is intended to get a spire as quickly as possible, meanwhile producing as many zerglings as possible. My lair was delayed quite a bit because I built another hatch and barely had enough money for lings. Then I suicided my lings like an idiot and got run over.
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Hi Dromar
Lets game again some time. I hope you don't get discouraged and the occasional win you do manage feels good enough to keep pushing (that's how it is for me anywho)
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Calgary26003 Posts
I feel really inspired to help, because I've never had the determination to keep playing after losing like you do. I have more VODs on the way, given that people say they are actually learning from them (!!), so keep an eye out for that.
[ZvT]
How big of a deal are attack upgrades?
Not that big a deal. If it's turning into a macro game, you should get melee as soon as possible, but if it's sort of a 3 base Defiler rush, you can hold off until you have map control and Hive tech all researching before you get attack.
Should I be having 2 evos?
As I said, it depends. As a weaker player, I'd advise you to delay your Hive tech and just play duel Evo Lair tech for awhile until you understand it, then move onto Hive.
Is it stupid to take a 3rd base before the T's first mnm attack at my nat?
Depends how fast T took their expansion. It's safe if you can threaten a Zergling backstab to keep them at home.
When (if ever) should I get ultras before defilers?
Basically never. People will tell you reasons they do it, but it comes down to the fact that they are shitty players. It depends if you want to win or learn. If you want to learn, open Defilers every time. If you want to win, then you could make a case for Ultralisks if you think you can get either upgrade before Terran is going to move out.
[ZvP]
When do you use mutas in ZvP?
Not so much situational, but just based on how I'm feeling, really. Do it against a Stargate opening, but not a +1 Zeal opening, in my opinion.
Should lair tech primarily be used as a delay/contain tactic to allow myself to get a 3rd gas and get hive tech for ultras?
DO NOT CONTAIN AGAINST A FAST EXPANSION. It's stupid. Use Lair tech to stop him from getting a third gas while you secure a fourth base and move towards Hive. The speed as which you expand and tech will depend on how the openings worked.
[ZvZ]
How many lings/what ling ratio is needed to break through a ramp? A ramp with 6 lings? 10 lings?
You can't break a ramp, don't bother trying unless you have double his Zerglings. What you should do is run up, draw him down, and then surround him. If he runs too far up and leaves a side of the ramp open, run up and then engage him once you are outside of his arc. He will retreat and let the rest of your army in. Do not A-Move against a ramp. Ever.
Should I ever be getting a 3rd hatch?
Of course it's situational, but I will just say no.
Is it worth it to muta micro in a muta battle, or should I spread and focus fire?
Muta micro like what? Running in and out? No... In large battles you should be focus firing and cloning Scourge. You should NOT be spreading Mutalisks, the damage you reduce by doing this is way less than the damage he saves from you not attacking. Attack, clone Scourge, forcus fire (queue), bring reinforcements, in that order. If you have nothing else to do, have your Mutalisks ready to follow him if he runs, so you can do the running shot trick to kill the majority of fleeing Mutalisks.
Should I even scout with a drone (assuming Python)?
No. Learn one solid build and just do it. I think the safest build is a variant of 12 Pool 11 Extractor, Hatchery and then Lair. I'll tell you the build I use on ICC and why I like it:
First of all, this is a bad build. I like it because it's safe, let's me get an advantage easily against a lot of builds, while doesn't put me too far behind against coutnering builds. And it's very flexible.
9/9 Pool
8/9 Drone
9/9 Extractor
8/9 Overlord
8/9 Drone -> use to scout if on 4 player map
9/17 Zerglings
@88 Gas -> pull Drones off Gas one-by-one
@104 Gas -> Zergling Speed
Now, by this time you should have scouted him, or at least know where he is. If he's done 12 Hatch, you win outright, just run in and target Drones.
If he's done 12 Pool, you have an option, you can continue Zergling production and get a second Hatchery, hoping to outmicro him with your speed, or get a second Hatchery, make Drones and get Gas and go Lair, using your fewer speed Zerglings to keep him home since you can counter.
If he's done 9 Pool speed, do this cute move: send 2 of your initial Zerglings to a point outside of his natural that he won't see when moving out. Because he has to run the distance of the map to get to you, your production should always be even (first battle will be his 6 Zerglings versus your 4 old ones + 2 new ones = 6). Once you have Zergling speed, run those 2 Zerglings in and target Drones. If you kill even 2 Drones you've just outright won.
The proper 9 pool speed build is pulling 1 Drone off when you go 1 Hatch Lair and going straight to Spire, but I've found I was dying to Zergling allins with too few Drones, so I like getting a second Hatchery and delaying Spire. Try it out and let me know what you think.
[General]
What's the etiquette situation on bnet? Is gg standard or only for games the person considered good? What would the average bnet player's ICCup rank be?
Always say gg. Even if you want a rematch, say gg then re? gg indicates the game is over, and if people haven't said it I assume they intend to continue playing. The average BNet player would be D- on ICC.
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On March 18 2008 02:26 Chill wrote:
When (if ever) should I get ultras before defilers?
Basically never. People will tell you reasons they do it, but it comes down to the fact that they are shitty players. It depends if you want to win or learn. If you want to learn, open Defilers every time. If you want to win, then you could make a case for Ultralisks if you think you can get either upgrade before Terran is going to move out.
...Luxury, Haran, Kwanro, lots of other pros/semipros = shitty players?
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Calgary26003 Posts
Way to take my comment intended for low level foreigners on standard maps and apply it to Korean progamers on specific maps.
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On March 18 2008 00:06 Dromar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2008 15:24 Dr.Dragoon wrote:On March 17 2008 14:50 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:On March 17 2008 10:30 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Tell us more about game 100 Well? :p Feel free to ask me for games whenever you see me online, I'll do my best to help an aspiring zerg user! I am intrigued, tell me about this game 100. Oh and were you the one I played that TvZ with where I faked a bunker rush into proxy fact and rushed vults into your main? If so, I wouldn't mind some more games, I'm sure you've improved quite a bit. Yeah probably. You proxied the factory right below the cliff to my main (@ 12 on Python), then flew it in. I think there was an observer in that game. Game 100 was a ZvZ against ShaLLoW on Blue Storm. Since it's a 2 player map, a more aggressive build order was needed. We both opened with an overpool, but after that ShaLLoW's build was superior. Obviously the build is intended to get a spire as quickly as possible, meanwhile producing as many zerglings as possible. My lair was delayed quite a bit because I built another hatch and barely had enough money for lings. Then I suicided my lings like an idiot and got run over.
Heh, I was the observer in that game!
You have a sick memory btw, all I remember about that game was that I had lings, you had more lings, yours died, and I had spire.
Also, a fun ZvZ trick is:
If you are at close positions on python (12v3, 6v9), both players inevitably send their overlords to the close base and see each other pretty fast. In this situation, theres a 90% chance that both players with 12hatch at expansion.
In this situation, sending out your 9th drone to block their expansion hatch while you place your own can put you significantly ahead
http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=32978
A pretty cute replay where I demonstrate this trick (aka be a complete dick)
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Chill, your post is so very win
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EPT
