agree with many of your points, tried to give the facebook stream a chance. but it was horrible, even on day 2 massive buffering and horrible audio quality. a realy sad situation, hope ESL will come with a good solution until katowice......

CharizardX

Canada5 Posts

January 26 2018 22:42 GMT

#22

Good blog and insight Aui ! GL with your new team sponsor !

bloodwhore~

1010 Posts

January 26 2018 22:49 GMT

#23

I agree with you with most that you said regarding facebook and ESL. However, ESL had so many chances to backpedel and apologize. They fuck up and say some stupid shit once or twice, that's fine, but they never stopped. Look at the AMA with the ESL guy, he still seem to be under the impression that everything they done was the correct move. That is honestly a bit insane.

Haven't checked if they have said anything since then, maybe they have changed their minds now.

korendir

Singapore259 Posts

January 26 2018 22:50 GMT

#24

Good stuff, great insight. Agree on a lot of the points. Was rather sad to see such a huge backlash on ESL and even some of the personalities, especially since they have worked so hard for it. TO needs to make some money as well.

They definitely could have handled it better of course, but a mob mentality isn't going to help it. I think such a ruling might actually be detrimental to future TOs considering dota, especially as more games come out all the time.

Regarding facebook, think its the same case as twitch for logging on. Personally I also dislike facebook as a social media tool and deleted my account long ago but I was able to watch without any issues every day without logging on (I believe you have to log on if you want to watch via the app)

lufwa

33 Posts

January 26 2018 23:04 GMT

#25

Thanks for the post. I'm really excited to watch you guys grow as a team. Other than one particularly clowny game in a won series you guys have shown great composure, especially considering you have a couple players that are relatively new to the scene. Best of luck going forward. I wish you guys nothing but success.

dtz

5834 Posts

January 26 2018 23:39 GMT

#26

The ESL VP claimed that they have a special legal agreement with Valve and they are in constant communication about the whole platform thing. If that was true, then they could have easily asked " hey can i dmca these guys/can you dmca these guys" and found out that they couldn't. So something's weird there or the ESL VP is lying.

In fact , ESL had quite a few defenders on reddit before that who said " hey they mentioned they have a special agreement and Valve hasn't come out to scold them yet so that means Valve must have endorsed them. It would be insane for ESL to lie about this".

Well apparently they did. So yeah any sympathy from me goes out of the window.

It would be a different case if Valve ignores them since i agree the initial statement a few months ago can still be nuanced. But if they have constant communication with Valve and a special agreement as ESL claimed, they could have easily verified first without DMCA'ing illegally when they are not even the IP holder.

Lachrymose

Australia1928 Posts

January 27 2018 01:04 GMT

#27

You point out ESL isn't really profitable and highlight broadcasting rights as a key factor in their ability to be profitable but it is not on the law to bend to make ESL (et al.) profitable because we like them or want them to succeed.

ESL and Valve have an agreement. Valve retains all broadcasting rights to Dota. End of story.

Valve and Stramers have an agreement. Valve extends broadcasting rights to Dota to streamers with some conditions. End of story.

ESL and Streamers have no agreement. ESL owns broadcasting rights to their own production (everything except Dota gameplay, essentially) and reserves those rights.

This setup leaves no scope for ESL to interact with streamers who aren't using their production. Under no circumstances can they sue for somebody using Dota TV against Valve's wishes. For example, if Valve required streamers of Dota TV to balance a pineapple on their head ESL would have equally the same scope to DMCA as the did for possible breaches of Valve's "don't monetise under certain circumstances" policy. (Zero scope.)

I think anybody with a grasp of the basic legal concepts of the situation agrees on this and yet it gets muddied when people advocate for ESL's position. What you're doing is essentially arguing that people should just let ESL do this because their profitability is on the line, not because it's technically correct. It sounds nice but what you're subtly doing is de facto transferring value across the agreement between Valve and ESL. Maybe you think it's good for the scene for that to happen and maybe it is, but this is not the place to do it, extra-legally, based on people submitting to bullying for the greater good.

If the agreement between Valve and ESL with regard to broadcast rights is so untenable then it needs to be addressed at that level. Come to a new agreement. The thing is, in that domain the agreement about broadcasting rights will be valued against things like the giant stack of money Valve hands out in the form of prize money co-contributions. Can ESL just straight negotiate a better deal? I doubt it. That's why ESL chose to conduct the battle how they did. That doesn't make it right.

MrCon

France29748 Posts

January 27 2018 07:32 GMT

#28

I agree with most of OP post.
Also, I don't know how r/dota2 works, but if it's like the rest of reddit, especially political subs, it's really easy for a competitor to bot content and fuel the bandwagon. Most of the content of default political subs is like that, from r/politics to r/news and even r/politicalhumor (with monopoly of certain political views) where obvious propaganda is always at the top with like 30k upvotes and 2 comments (slight exaggeration :D). It shouldn't be difficult for a competitor to do the same on r/dota2.
And yes, I was really against facebook at first (well, I'm still am) but everything was so over the top and dumb that now I feel sympathy for ESL. And it's true that facebook stream quality is way better than twitch. Seems twitch introduced 1080p 60fps, let it work as intended for a few months, then cut its quality for saving bandwidth, I haven't seen a good quality stream on twitch for months and months.

nanaoei

3358 Posts

January 27 2018 19:00 GMT

#29

was a little scared you quietly left the scene entirely after NP.

thank you for apologizing to VG.J about that situation.

it sucked and you know how to handle things if it ever shows its head again.
i think you should be able to care about what people type to you, with only the caveat that people are dumb and attention-seeking.

had no issues with facebook stream myself, i used the multi-esl feed and appreciated the scoreboard on the side. i think that's a great addition and they can do other things with it starting from countdown to games starting (local time) in addition to the scoreline.

you have a nice team, try to keep them from indiscretions due to inexperience.

deadmau

960 Posts

January 29 2018 10:11 GMT

#30

On January 27 2018 16:32 MrCon wrote:
Seems twitch introduced 1080p 60fps, let it work as intended for a few months, then cut its quality for saving bandwidth...

Really think they did this?

Forgottenfrog

United States1268 Posts

February 03 2018 19:00 GMT

#31

Looking forward to more of AUI's blog post. Long time fan and will always be. Thank you!

evanthebouncy!

United States12796 Posts

February 05 2018 17:51 GMT

#32

Pro post in a forum and we all hope he'd talk to us but he probably won't have time.

FFGenerations

7088 Posts

February 11 2018 15:03 GMT

#33

great blog/read thanks

Corgi

United States408 Posts

February 13 2018 08:45 GMT

#34

On Reddit: The reason why people tell people to ignore reddit is because those same people cannot grasp how to disseminate the information on Reddit without reading all the bullshit that's on there. You need to be able to ignore and gloss over posts that are worthless while identifying posts that contain a lot of value.

Sure Reddit is full of astroturfing and fake news and other bullshit, but there's always hidden gems that help dota players out every single day. Telling people on TL that Redditors should be nicer to people because they might affect people is as effective as a warm breeze blowing on a tree. Nobody is going to change. Reminding them, as optimistic as that might be Aui, isn't going to change people either. This has been done every day in every gaming subreddit since the dawn of Reddit and that has not stopped the fact that people will be assholes. The information on the subreddit is clearly more valuable to you and most pro players to stomach the hate that you can see (once you start scrolling past the first few posts).

Good points on Facebook streaming and streaming monopolies. Most people have hated on competition vs twitch not because they hate competition however, but because what was being offered are inferior products. This includes hitbox, google streaming, and of course facebook. People don't give two shits about brand loyalty here. They care about the platform delivering everything they want and more. So on one hand, you make a good argument. But if facebook fucks up on their first day...lets just say first impressions are important.

I sort of think you're trying to take empathy and turning it into compassion. There's a pretty big difference here. Everyone voicing their opinions are already being empathetic to this situation. They however are under no obligation to try and understand it from ESL's point of view or give them any sympathy in that space. They are consumers. They are not required to try and understand it from a business perspective. They are also not trying to argue anything from a business perspective.

Anyways, you're a nice guy Aui. Just don't expect other people to be. If youre really serious about championing this idea to the community, you should bring it up at every interview you do so the message reaches a wider audience!

n0ise

3452 Posts

February 24 2018 20:27 GMT

#35

watching sing but also keeping the fb stream open!

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