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Describing Christianity - Page 28

Blogs > PaqMan
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Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
October 24 2013 16:06 GMT
#541
I am familiar with the Thomistic argument; I'm a practicing Catholic (who'd have thought, eh?) and was basically brought up reading a lot of Aquinas. Really, really lovely philosopher. I don't think his natural law is particularly accurate, though, because a lot of it really just doesn't mesh very well with our modern understanding of the psyche. Minds, as it turns out, are a lot subtler than we initially believed, and notions like "essence" or "purpose" or "final cause" are really, at least in some sense, sort of arbitrary.

I think it's specious to suggest that, even within the confines of some sort of adapted form of natural law ethics, the procreative aspect of heterosexual sex somehow "saves" heterosexual promiscuity. To me, that just doesn't really make any sense, because I don't really evaluate ethical decisions based on things that really have nothing at all to do with the intent of the agent relative to himself. A promiscuous homosexual person engaging in sexual intercourse and a promiscuous heterosexual person engaging in sex are entirely equivalent, in a moral sense, from my point of view. To argue that the lack of a procreative element somehow damns homosexual sex more than heterosexual sex insofar as it's something like, I don't know, offensive to God (I'm not sure what else "corrupted from its intended use" could mean).

But even such a thing would beg the question: why do homosexuals exist, and, more importantly, why is their sexual identity so similar to that of heterosexuals? The way a heterosexual woman is attracted to men isn't particularly different from the way homosexual men are attracted to men.

But anyway, going back to the original argument concerning essences, you seem to sort of want to have your cake and eat it, too. On the one hand, you point to sex as being fundamentally natural, in some sense, and that only the human species enjoys other attributes like friendship, and so on. But on the other hand, you want to say that human beings, unlike animals (who quite clearly have all sorts of sex, including the homosexual kind) are, as moral agents, above animals and should refrain from "unnatural" behaviour. You try to allay this by saying that "reproduction is inseparable from the essence of sex." Aside from the fact that strict essentialism strikes me as a game of definitions, how exactly is reproduction any more inseparable from the essence of sex than the release of endorphins? Sterile, or, perhaps more realistically, post-menopausal heterosexual women, can engage in sexual intercourse with the reproductive element entirely removed; yet the release of endorphins, emotive qualities, and the ability to express love remain.

I'm not denying that procreation is central to heterosexual intercourse as an action; from a biological point of view, it certainly exists because it permits the transmission of genetic material. But at the same time, I see no reason to be confined to the principles of natural selection when making our moral codes. What exactly is the "natural" purpose of homosexuality supposed to be, then? It's pretty clear that that a lot of people are homosexual, and it's also clear that most of them have no associated pathologies (unlike other "sexually deviant" groups, like zoophiles, or pedophiles). Do you not think it, at the very least, a pretty cruel joke on the part of God to give these people the exact same sort of sexual identity as that of a heterosexual (with respect to how it feels to them, how they experience attraction/intimacy, etc.) but at the same time give them a body which, for whatever reason, forbids them from ever acknowledging or participating in that part of themselves?

If anything, the existence of homosexuality, along with the massive history of sex-for-reasons-other-than-just-procreation (both in humans and animals), is an argument against a procreative element being necessarily for moral sexual conduct.

I don't think unabashed Thomism really makes much sense in the context of a post-Psychological Revolution world. People aren't really as simple as things moving toward some end; sexual identity isn't really as simple as just "oh btw you like this gender," but rather impacts virtually every facet of a person's life.

I also don't think the conclusion of your Aristotelian argument really follows, either. If anything, it suggests that homosexual sex isn't actually sex, but is something else altogether, and it's not clear how that other thing would be immoral, given that, since it isn't actually sex at all, can't really be regarded as a corruption of sex. See, maybe it'd be better to think of the "essence" of sexual orientation (if such a thing exists) rather than the essence of sex. In that vein, it's not like homosexual people should be going out and having sex with the opposite sex (which would be a betrayal of their own integrity, and would show disrespect for themselves, at best) when they're not having homosexual sex.

In what way, for you, is homosexual sex similar enough to heterosexual sex to be considered "sex," but not similar enough to still be considered a corruption of the same? Is there another, purer (i.e. not corrupted) version of sex available to the homosexual?
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-29 11:56:22
October 29 2013 11:56 GMT
#542
On October 23 2013 06:03 MoltkeWarding wrote:
What particularly is your problem with the proposition that God allows it to exist?

I'm interested to read your opinion on Christian dualism, i'm sure it will be enjoyable lol.
fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
teddychico123
Profile Joined October 2013
2 Posts
October 29 2013 16:16 GMT
#543
Actually, as a born again believer, I don't even like to utilize the term Christian anymore. Most people who call themselves Christians are so busy living a worldly lifestyle, there is no distinction. However, this is confirmation as to what "perceptions" have survived, and now thrive, in our culture. I am writing a book to address this topic, so this was easy research. Thanks. Hope more "haters" post. THAT was a joke. Obviously, I am using language that has helped perpetrate myths against people of faith.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
October 29 2013 18:29 GMT
#544
You should post some excerpts from your book.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Kingsky
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Singapore298 Posts
October 29 2013 23:11 GMT
#545
right now? -misunderstood-
Why do people hate the Colossus? Because the Colossus is like banksters from Wall Street: “too big to fail”. - TheDwF
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