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Calgary26003 Posts
Hey 
As I said before: In every project, the first 80% of the work takes 20% of the time, and then vice versa. I think I started thinking "I should make a game" in mid-September, 2012 and had a working prototype by mid-October. Little by little things are getting better, but there's still a ways to go.
* Textbook
CecilSunkure recommended "Rules of Play" http://www.amazon.com/Rules-Play-Game-Design-Fundamentals/dp/0262240459?tag=tealiq-20 . I finally got it and started reading it. I'm only 4 chapters in, but it does a good job of blending direct advice, vague concepts that make you think, and theory. So far I've found the direct advice to be the most useful.
I don't have a game design background in any shape, so there are probably techniques for designing and testing games that I'm not aware of. It would likely be more efficient if I could learn these techniques ASAP, so I'm hoping the book helps out with that. I hate reading, so I hope I don't run out of steam too quickly.
In one of the first chapters, a game designer mentions he starts every design process with 4 questions. So I decided to start a "design log" kind of thing in my workbook so it's easier to organize my thoughts. The author also talks about getting students to analyze games by looking through the feedback loops in the game. So I drew out a basic version of my game, reaffirming what I already knew: This game is likely too complicated (not too complex, just too complicated). If it's going to work, I have to keep simplifying, little by little.
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Chill/LiquidMagic/Notebook.jpg) Looks simple - RIGHT?...-.-
* Last Night
Last night I got to test rev.08 with some friends. One who has played MTG and my game several times. One who played MTG 20 years ago and has never played my game. And one who has never played MTG nor my game, but has played quite a few games. Rev.08 is significantly simpler than the other revisions, and I felt we got the game going pretty quickly (less than 10 minutes). The first turns were slow but we completed the game in about 1.5 hours, with people interrupting us, washroom breaks, etc. For reference, we've never completed a game in less than 3 hours before. So I felt that the game is heading in a good direction. 1 hour is still my ideal time for 4 players (45 minutes for 2, 1.5 hrs for 6).
The feedback was cautiously positive. Nothing in the game was completely broken or unclear, but there were some issues raised:
- Visual Cues - When you have 10 cards in front of you, it's going to take me forever to figure out what you can block with. The visual cues need to be strong enough that I can look across the table and see that you have 3 Minions able to block my attack. This is something Coag and I have discussed already and are trying to wrap our heads around the best way to handle it. It doesn't help that the test game is white paper :X
- Spell Order - Unlike MTG, there is one central deck. When you kill a Minion, you keep it, and later us its XP to level up. Also, Spells in this game work like Interrupts, so the last Spell is always resolved first. The problem is, if combat is going on between two other players and I jump in with a Spell, my damage gets resolved first. So technically the other player gets the XP and I get nothing. That's not the way it should be. But I haven't figured out a concise system to resolve this.
- Lag - People would forget to do something and then try to play a card 20 seconds later. I don't think this needs to be addressed in the rules - groups can just make their own calls on this. I'm realizing that the less I write in the rules, the better.
* Art
In case you didn't already know, Coagulation is really talented. The first thing I do when I get home from work (Google Drive is blocked at work and the mobile version on iPhone doesn't allow you to see images) is load up the design premise document we have and check his art. He usually starts a new 1-2 card concepts per day. One day I came home and there were two new tabs in the document, each with ~50 images. I asked "What the hell? Are these new?"
"Yep, I did some speed painting today of some backgrounds." WTF??
If this ever becomes a real thing, it'll be Coag that made it memorable. I really can't wait to test print a beta card and show a little bit of what he's done so far.
* Legal
The name of the game right now is Liquid Magic. I really like the name. It combined Team Liquid with Magic: the Gathering and is also a nod to alcohol being liquid magic. It's nerdy but it sounds like a name that could be a real game.
The lawyer I met with suggested that I don't use Magic in my game name. I keep going back and forth on whether to listen to her. All the alternatives I've heard don't really compare.
* Oversimplification
I'm also struggling with finding the right balance between depth and complexity. I don't think the game is too complicated to learn if someone explains it to you, but of course I made the game. I do believe, however, that if you try to learn it by reading the instructions, it would be difficult. I could simplify the game down to Minions, Heroes and Spells (cut Equipment and Battlefields), but I think it would hurt the game. Similarly, I could cut Experience, Leveling, etc. This game exists somewhere between a drinking game and a game that you're drinking while playing. I haven't fully committed in one direction or the other yet. Time will tell.
* Mistakes
At work, I'm pretty careful. I usually re-read my emails several times before sending them and I make sure the information I provide to people is accurate. My .xls file for the cards of this game has contained errors three times. It's really embarrassing that I'm issuing these cards for people to test, and the stats on ~25% of them are wrong. I don't understand how it happened because the reference cells used in the INDIRECT() formula are all hidden. I hadn't noticed until I looked at the latest revision of cards I had. I will fix this today and then hopefully that will be the last time this happens.
This has been a really fun project. My card sleeves should arrive this week so I'll be able to finally get a decent working deck of cards. I'm really looking forward to it!
Something fun to work on while watching MLG
  
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Heya, if you're looking for textbook material, I'd also recommend the following
For pure design theory and practice:
The art of game design: a book of lenses (Jesse Schell)
A theory of fun (Raph Koster)
The design of everyday things (Donald A Norman)
For more comprehensive game and play theory (rather than focused design stuff)
Man, Play and Games (Roger Caillois)
The Ambiguity of Play (Brian Sutton-Smith)
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on the simplification topic. you said in a previous blog that on each turn you draw a random number (dice rolled?) of action points to play with a turn, do you really feel this adds anything to the game? i can see it being 'exciting' needing 6 actions or whatever to make the big plays, but i can also see it as being frustrating as hell.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 17 2013 10:12 turdburgler wrote:
on the simplification topic. you said in a previous blog that on each turn you draw a random number (dice rolled?) of action points to play with a turn, do you really feel this adds anything to the game? i can see it being 'exciting' needing 6 actions or whatever to make the big plays, but i can also see it as being frustrating as hell.
It's not random, it's correlated directly to your Hero level. Certain things can also buff/debuff the number.
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United States24799 Posts
I'm kinda amazed you have real life friends who are doing so much for you with this. That's both a big help and a reflection of what your drinking buddies think of you!
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On March 17 2013 11:19 micronesia wrote:
I'm kinda amazed you have real life friends who are doing so much for you with this. That's both a big help and a reflection of what your drinking buddies think of you!
I'd definitely drive over to help drink/test the game if I were local
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I think IP law often looks as to whether the consumer would be confused by a seeming connection between two products. The average consumer might be misled into thinking that your game was a variant of Magic the Gathering. It seems that 'Magic' has a lot more power in the name 'Magic the Gathering' because the game is often referred to as 'Magic' by people who play it...
On the off chance that your game becomes huge, it would be quite prudent to give it a different name. There would be nothing lamer than getting famous then having to change your name just as you achieve serious brand recognition :/
The alcohol pun is pretty tasty but there must be another good name out there. Why not ask TL for suggestions?
PS if you're serious about this then making the game fully playable without alcohol would exponentially increase the customer base...it's going to be pretty hard for a guy to get his friends to play this game if the only time is when they are all getting boozed up. It would be ideally learned (by everyone, ie around a coffee table) while sober then played while drinking for extra hilarity.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 17 2013 12:11 sc4k wrote:
I think IP law often looks as to whether the consumer would be confused by a seeming connection between two products. The average consumer might be misled into thinking that your game was a variant of Magic the Gathering. It seems that 'Magic' has a lot more power in the name 'Magic the Gathering' because the game is often referred to as 'Magic' by people who play it...
On the off chance that your game becomes huge, it would be quite prudent to give it a different name. There would be nothing lamer than getting famous then having to change your name just as you achieve serious brand recognition :/
The alcohol pun is pretty tasty but there must be another good name out there. Why not ask TL for suggestions?
PS if you're serious about this then making the game fully playable without alcohol would exponentially increase the customer base...it's going to be pretty hard for a guy to get his friends to play this game if the only time is when they are all getting boozed up. It would be ideally learned (by everyone, ie around a coffee table) while sober then played while drinking for extra hilarity.
Yea, my girlfriend doesn't drink, so playing it with my her made me realize there can't be anything that is 100% only drinking. So cards that were originally "give player 3 drinks" or something now always have some non-drinking component to make it fully playable without alcohol.
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I'd totally be game to beta test this if you still are looking for people. Got a pretty strong mtg background. If not I can't wait til you're selling this cause it sounds awesome.
Regardless, since I saw you link that book, you should check out Sirlin's playing to win articles if you've never read it(he has other game design stuff too if you've never checked out his website).
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 17 2013 13:28 Stutters695 wrote:
I'd totally be game to beta test this if you still are looking for people. Got a pretty strong mtg background. If not I can't wait til you're selling this cause it sounds awesome.
Regardless, since I saw you link that book, you should check out Sirlin's playing to win articles if you've never read it(he has other game design stuff too if you've never checked out his website).
Yep I read that, but that's for the advice.
Sirlin kind of annoyed me after he started talking about his Asian ability to stop time when playing Street Fighter (but oh wait! it doesn't work vs good players... -.-)
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Its seem over your last few blogs you a really looking for a way to make it a more simple game. Have you thought of maybe more then one way/ level of difficulty to play the game? You can look at HOTS as a perfect example, they cater to brand new players with the ability to play with limited units. Maybe make the game playable w/o equipment and battlefields, but also playable with them.
This could also give players the ability for longer and shorter games. Offering the less then 1 hour game your looking for, while also offering the complexity and extended time of a more involved game.
This would also help players acclimate to the game. Starting with three different card types might make them more interested in playing with five card types the next time around.
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I would like to share some of my experiences from having developed a game with my brothers for 5 years now (yes it took very long) that might or might not be any help to you.
If you are intrested in the game you can look it up http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/126042/nations (its not published yet)
I guess the games are not exactly same but since they are both card driven there are at least some similarity.
What makes games for for me is often that there is a fun player interaction with real choises (here I guess would be what card to play and perhaps what card to put in your deck if you have a private one).
Now to the problems of any such game
1 Run-away leader and kingmaking.
These two problems are kind of polar different. Depending on how complex you make the game very good card combination could come out which make one person untouchable (here is the big job of balance). But on the other side if it is too easy to cause harm to any player it is often quite random who will win (the kingmaking).
What can then help out this situation? Some ways are to have non direct aggression (direct aggression can also make people sour) or to make it goal driven and not to kill of player.
2 Downtime. If you play a complex cardgame with 6 players especially in a situation where it is possible to play more than one card per turn, this can be a serious issue especially with newer players. To make it fun it is usually a good idea to minimize downtime and I would suggest that you aim that each player "turn" take max 20-30 seconds.
3 Too much complexity. Since our game has also been alot about balancing cards I believe i know the difficulty in this. The urge as a developer is often to make highly complex cards that make intresting combos and high interaction. This is often fun and if you know the game very well this can also be fun. However with a higher card complexity you also alienate the noob player base who feel very disadvantageous since they don't know all the card combinations.
Our solution I guess has been twofold. First we have marked the cards in various complexity level urging people to learn the game one step at a time so that they may gradually get to know more and complex things.
Secondly we also have introduced a handicap system which gives even new players a chance to win by giving them a small bonus each turn.
Well these are just some general thoughts, hope you find something useful!
P.s it would be nice if you could post some current card prototype
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+ Show Spoiler [from thesaurus.com] +Synonyms for Magic:
alchemy, allurement, astrology, augury, bewitchment, black art, conjuring, conjury, devilry, diabolism, divination, enchantment, exorcism, fascination, foreboding, fortune-telling, hocuspocus, horoscopy, illusion, incantation, legerdemain, magnetism, necromancy, occultism, of impossible feats by tricks abracadabra, power, prediction, presage, prestidigitation, prophecy, rune, sleight of hand, soothsaying, sorcery, sortilege, spell, superstition, taboo, thaumaturgy, trickery, voodoo, voodooism, witchcraft, wizardry
Related words:
Pythian, adumbrative, aeaeae, apocalyptic, apotropaic, attuned, beatific, blessed, blissed, celestial, chaldean, charmed, chimerical, deep, devoid, disembodied, divine, eerie, elevated, ethereal, evanescent, exalted, existential, extrasensory, fatidic, hagborn, hermetic, holy, hypnotic, imaginary, incantatory, integrated, magic, magical, mantic, mystic, mystical, numinous, occult, oneiric, orphic, pacific, paranormal, phylacteric, positive, preternatural, psychedelic, psychic, realized, sacred, sensitive, sibylline, spellbound, stoicheiotical, sublime, supernal, supernatural, supersensible, supreme, surrealistic, talismanic, telestically, thaumaturgical, touched, transcendental, tuned, uncanny, unfamiliar, unimaginable, unreal, vatic, weird
Staying with the "drinking theme" Liquid Conjuring (or Conjury) would be a good play on liquid courage. I also think Divine Liquid, Liquid Sorcery, Liquid Devilry or Liquid Spell are pretty good. (None quite on the level of Liquid Magic unfortunately.)
Keep it up!
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On March 17 2013 18:24 DusTerr wrote:+ Show Spoiler [from thesaurus.com] +Synonyms for Magic:
alchemy, allurement, astrology, augury, bewitchment, black art, conjuring, conjury, devilry, diabolism, divination, enchantment, exorcism, fascination, foreboding, fortune-telling, hocuspocus, horoscopy, illusion, incantation, legerdemain, magnetism, necromancy, occultism, of impossible feats by tricks abracadabra, power, prediction, presage, prestidigitation, prophecy, rune, sleight of hand, soothsaying, sorcery, sortilege, spell, superstition, taboo, thaumaturgy, trickery, voodoo, voodooism, witchcraft, wizardry
Related words:
Pythian, adumbrative, aeaeae, apocalyptic, apotropaic, attuned, beatific, blessed, blissed, celestial, chaldean, charmed, chimerical, deep, devoid, disembodied, divine, eerie, elevated, ethereal, evanescent, exalted, existential, extrasensory, fatidic, hagborn, hermetic, holy, hypnotic, imaginary, incantatory, integrated, magic, magical, mantic, mystic, mystical, numinous, occult, oneiric, orphic, pacific, paranormal, phylacteric, positive, preternatural, psychedelic, psychic, realized, sacred, sensitive, sibylline, spellbound, stoicheiotical, sublime, supernal, supernatural, supersensible, supreme, surrealistic, talismanic, telestically, thaumaturgical, touched, transcendental, tuned, uncanny, unfamiliar, unimaginable, unreal, vatic, weird Staying with the "drinking theme" Liquid Conjuring (or Conjury) would be a good play on liquid courage. I also think Divine Liquid, Liquid Sorcery, Liquid Devilry or Liquid Spell are pretty good. (None quite on the level of Liquid Magic unfortunately.) Keep it up!
Liquid Impossible Feats By Tricks: Abracadabra!
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On March 17 2013 08:27 Chill wrote:
Lag - People would forget to do something and then try to play a card 20 seconds later. I don't think this needs to be addressed in the rules - groups can just make their own calls on this. I'm realizing that the less I write in the rules, the better.
Definitely dont put that in the rules. It's really playgroup depending how people handle this.
You can add the typical "when there's a discussion, roll a d6 and on 4+ it's one way, else the other way"
You should change the name. WotC is very hard with that and likes to sue.
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Have you considered adding an experience value to the spells and using them the same way as killed creatures?
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On March 17 2013 10:02 Thereisnosaurus wrote:
Heya, if you're looking for textbook material, I'd also recommend the following
For pure design theory and practice:
The art of game design: a book of lenses (Jesse Schell)
A theory of fun (Raph Koster)
The design of everyday things (Donald A Norman)
For more comprehensive game and play theory (rather than focused design stuff)
Man, Play and Games (Roger Caillois)
The Ambiguity of Play (Brian Sutton-Smith)
I can second the art of game design: a book of lenses.
Working on a game project myself (using the cryengine) ..and this book was really helpful, and also very easy to use.
Good luck man, its awesome you do things like this!
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 18 2013 03:31 3772 wrote:
Have you considered adding an experience value to the spells and using them the same way as killed creatures?
Yes - this is already in the game.
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Nice to see the game is coming along!
As far as the name goes, I would definitely agree that you shouldn't use the word Magic in the name, or Hasbro will come down on you. WotC has always been an extremely proprietary company, and the name really makes it sound like you're making a direct copy of Magic: the Gathering. Even if you change the name at their request, you'll have attracted their attention, so they may also go after other names/mechanics in your game which are similar to those in MtG.
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United States4126 Posts
Oh, that's funny. I took a class with Zimmerman once and the textbook was Rules of Play, but I kind of brushed it off and never did the readings. Might be interested in taking a look through it now.
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those posts by cecil were amazing. It's awesome to see something real coming out of it.
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EPT
