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I see a lot of people bitching about stuff that Blizz makes, and now, I must agree that some things are pretty stupid from their part, but most of the complaining going on is pretty uncalled for. For example the DotA vs SC2 UI thread. Why in the world would you want to have the main menu window avaidable in game? And the chat window in game is totally fine in my opinion. As sc2 requires alot more awereness than dota (please don't hate me for saying that), why would you want to check anything that is in the sc2 main menu anyway?
You have everything you need in game, chat window, and seriously if you don't see the difference in the red/blue vs pink in game, then the problem is not sc2, then you are either very picky or colourblind. Then you have the achievements window, mini menu (surrender, options etc) adn you even have the "Help" menu. Stop comparing two completely different games.
That being said, I think it's really stupid not having clan support (wc3), how much effort would it be to put that in? And chat channels are really boring, in the old bnet they took most of the main screen, which was awesome, but now they are just some lame chat window.
But bnet 2.0 has it's benefits as well imo. Easier to check out other people's profiles, replays are more accesible, simpler to find games and select race/match mode, cooler portraits. Custom game menu is pretty bad though, the old one was much better than the popularity system that's going on now.
I can see why blizz is doing all this weird stuff, they don't want bnet 2.0 to be the same as bnet 1.0. They are trying (and failing somewhat) to create a completely new interface. So lay off blizz until the game(s) are actually finished, because I think that in time blizz will make the UI better.
Blizzard can make mistakes as well, just give them some time and they will most likely improve bnet 2.0.
I would like to see other people's opinion on this subject, as I feel like people are being unreasonably mad/annoyed at blizz trying to make something new.
 
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Bnet 1.0 was bnetter than Bnet 2.0.
Thats all there is.
Blizzard delivered a product that is worse than their own... Over 10 years older product.
How you can defend that is beyond me.
Oh and:
[quoet]But bnet 2.0 has it's benefits as well imo. Easier to check out other people's profiles, replays are more accesible, simpler to find games and select race/match mode, cooler portraits.[/quote]
There is next to nothing to be seen in SC2's "profiles" except for the last few game/lenghts...
Replay are more accesible? How, why? I don't get it.
Find Games and Race/Match is nearly the same as in WC3/Bnet1.0?
Who gives a fuck about portraits?
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I kinda agree, and kinda disagree =)
There is too much options that were available in broodwar or warcraft 3 that aren't available anymore (replay viewing party for instance), so I understand some complains. the UI itself is okay imo, the functionalities are not.
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On February 08 2012 22:44 achristes wrote:
I see a lot of people bitching
Do everyone else a favor and lose the "internet badass" attitude. People are voicing legitimate cocerns over a franchise they're passionate about. They're not "bitching".
You have everything you need in game, chat window, and seriously if you don't see the difference in the red/blue vs pink in game, then the problem is not sc2, then you are either very picky or colourblind. Then you have the achievements window, mini menu (surrender, options etc) adn you even have the "Help" menu. Stop comparing two completely different games.
It's not about comparing different genres, it's about comparing different features. Battle.Net currently is missing social features en masse, this is the core of what all of the current discussions are about.
But bnet 2.0 has it's benefits as well imo. Easier to check out other people's profiles, replays are more accesible, simpler to find games and select race/match mode, cooler portraits. Custom game menu is pretty bad though, the old one was much better than the popularity system that's going on now.
Excuse me? How are replays more accessible? We don't have shared watching, and good luck finding the replays on your hard drive should you need to look for them. "Simpler to find games" may apply to ladder, but certainly not to UMS maps.
I can see why blizz is doing all this weird stuff, they don't want bnet 2.0 to be the same as bnet 1.0. They are trying (and failing somewhat) to create a completely new interface. So lay off blizz until the game(s) are actually finished, because I think that in time blizz will make the UI better.
THE GAME IS FINISHED. We are not beta testers. We are discussing a game that's been out since 1.5 years and still it's lacking features that have proven to work in previous games which were 9 (WC3) or even 14 (SC/BW) years old. These things should have been there at release.
Blizzard can make mistakes as well, just give them some time and they will most likely improve bnet 2.0.
Welcome to the most popular phrase, uttered by thousands, mindlessly repeated by the gullible. Nothing has changed. Nothing will improve unless the community fights for it. The last time the community was up in arms, we got chat, and we got rid of forum RealIDs.
I would like to see other people's opinion on this subject, as I feel like people are being unreasonably mad/annoyed at blizz trying to make something new.
Blizzard isn't trying something "new". They've thrown away everything old that was good, and come up with a system developed by the wrong person (Greg Canessa, XBox Live developer) for the wrong reasons (maximum control over user content, "appeasing" casual gamers without understanding what they want, and trying to maximize profits from the map marketplace that never came).
We have 800+ replies on TL, popular forum threads on many major official forums, literally thousands of people chiming in to this discussion ... and you're calling it mindless bitching. Get a grip on reality.
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You see, all of this would be fine (whether you're defending Blizzard or not, or somewhere in middle ground) if Blizzard actually had legitimate press releases about customer care and user input. If they actually read the major forums in the internet, they should have at least acknowledged the concerns of the community. As far as I know - as a pretty avid gamer who checks many major gaming forums on a regular basis - that's not the impression I got.
At the time of SCBW, D2, and even WC3 there didn't exist giant social media hubs like Facebook and Twitter. Sure there were internet forums but not many were centralized and as active as it is now. That is why Blizzard has no excuse with their mistakes.
I'm hoping someone will finally wake up in that Blizzard boardroom and start addressing some of the issues identified by the community... I want to enjoy their products knowing I paid my hard-earned money for people with passion in the industry.
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Complaining about complaints. The inception of complaining. complaintion. I'm actually gonna go ahead and support Shockk's opinion, view and writeup. There are reasons why the majority of players are "bitching"
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On February 08 2012 23:13 OpticalShot wrote:
You see, all of this would be fine (whether you're defending Blizzard or not, or somewhere in middle ground) if Blizzard actually had legitimate press releases about customer care and user input. If they actually read the major forums in the internet, they should have at least acknowledged the concerns of the community. As far as I know - as a pretty avid gamer who checks many major gaming forums on a regular basis - that's not the impression I got.
At the time of SCBW, D2, and even WC3 there didn't exist giant social media hubs like Facebook and Twitter. Sure there were internet forums but not many were centralized and as active as it is now. That is why Blizzard has no excuse with their mistakes.
I'm hoping someone will finally wake up in that Blizzard boardroom and start addressing some of the issues identified by the community... I want to enjoy their products knowing I paid my hard-earned money for people with passion in the industry.
Im actually pessimistic, because im afraid blizzard is/was aware of everything, and they choose not to act. I mean what everyone was saying for at least 3 years(game problems/UI/bnet etc) would be logical conclusion that any healthy mind focused on game developing should come up. Everything thats happening right now is just an outcome of blizzards marketing policy.
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Replays are TOO accessible. this is NOT a good thing about bigbrother.net 2.0
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I'll quote myself from the dota2 vs sc2 thread.
"And to give you a comparison between the two companies. Neither game had time stamps in chat.
In dota2 after some whining and a couple of threads in the dev forums we now have time stamps.
We all know how that turned out in sc2."
But we what really blows my mind is that you can see the top pros playing whenever you want and even from their perspective. See what they click and where.
Blizzard has failed to deliver but they will have their chance with HotS.
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United States1719 Posts
Do you really want other opinions?
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We have 800+ replies on TL, popular forum threads on many major official forums, literally thousands of people chiming in to this discussion ... and you're calling it mindless bitching. Get a grip on reality.
Since when did I call it mindless bitching? I didn't play brood war, except the two first campaign of every race when I was like 6 or 7 so I don't have many opinions about that. Wc3 I played alot, not online because that was scary, but now I play it sometimes and I see that bnet wc3 was better. But I think people are demanding a lot (that's just me being the little hermit that I am), I think the sc2 UI is fine, and I don't get why people should complain(better?) about a system that works. I agree that blizz should have taken most features from bnet 1.0 and acknowledge the issues they have, but can you really expect them to do that when the UI and gameplay is OK (from a z and p point of view)? No, I don't think so. Because most people never played wc3 or scbw and don't know how that was, and which means that most likely they also think it's ok.
Maybe Blizzard is becoming some "mainstream" game company that really don't care about their games as long as people buy them and bring them money, I certanly hope not, but it is looking like it.
and come up with a system developed by the wrong person (Greg Canessa, XBox Live developer)
Oh shit, xbox? Seriously? Then I sincerely think that blizz has dug their own grave...
On February 08 2012 23:25 rotinegg wrote:
Do you really want other opinions?
I think I've changed my mind^^
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These weren't mistakes, these were conscious decisions on their part. People have a right to complain.
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On February 08 2012 22:44 achristes wrote:
Blizzard can make mistakes as well, just give them some time and they will most likely improve bnet 2.0.
They won't if the community doesn't make it clear that we want a better UI and we are upset about them not delivering. Especially if most of their player base is upset enough to not buy there games. I'll probably still get HotS, because I'm hopelessly addicted to the RTS genera. But I wont buy Diablo III until the UI of BN .2 is fixed.
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On February 08 2012 23:27 achristes wrote:
Since when did I call it mindless bitching? I didn't play brood war, except the two first campaign of every race when I was like 6 or 7 so I don't have many opinions about that. Wc3 I played alot, not online because that was scary, but now I play it sometimes and I see that bnet wc3 was better. But I think people are demanding a lot (that's just me being the little hermit that I am), I think the sc2 UI is fine, and I don't get why people should complain(better?) about a system that works. I agree that blizz should have taken most features from bnet 1.0 and acknowledge the issues they have, but can you really expect them to do that when the UI and gameplay is OK (from a z and p point of view)? No, I don't think so. Because most people never played wc3 or scbw and don't know how that was, and which means that most likely they also think it's ok.
It's good that you acknowledge that you lack the comparison, because you're in the same boat as many other players who basically started with SC2: They see a game interface that's mostly working, and they cannot fathom why other people make such a fuss about it when the system does all it needs to.
But everyone who was active in SC/BW or WC3 multiplayer and had anxiously waited for SC2's release has been thoroughly disappointed. We were promised an Esports revolution, a game experience so great we'd never want to leave Battle.Net again, but the system we got was several steps backwards from the systems we already had.
There's no shame in trying something new, which Blizzard did with the new Battle.Net. But it's a shame, a disservice to a loyal fanbase and an unwise business decision to develop something without taking a look at what worked well and was popular with the customers beforehand. And that's exactly what Blizzard did. On top of that, they ignored most of the feedback the players gave them before, during and after the Beta, resulting in a UI that's largely unchanged from early 2010 and inferior in almost all regards to that of Warcraft 3.
The new players may just see a system that's ok-ish and wonder why everyone's so agitated. The veterans waited for this game for over a decade, saw their hopes crushed and their pleas ignored, and face Blizzard's indifference.
Take a look at our huge UI discussion here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308482 . Just think about how great SC2 could be if just a fraction of all the great ideas and concepts was implemented.
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As far as the things you claim bnet2 does better (compared to dota2):
It's not easier to check other peoples profiles, because every window loads incredibly slow for some reason. Navigating league tables is a chore, the whole thing takes multiple screens to get all the information available on a player. Dota2 is one click to view a dota2 profile, one click to view a steam profile, the latter says way more about someone than a SC2 profile, and simply by virtue of having that inter-connectivity with steam makes it way better than bnet's horrible friend tool. Dota2 doesn't really have any stats available for your perusal now since it's still in beta, so direct comparison of what each in game profile displays isn't possible now.
Replays are not more accessible. Replays aren't accessible at all online in SC2. You can't DL and watch other peoples games except through 3rd party websites if people upload their replays. In Dota2 I can watch any game that has been played minutes after it has finished. I can watch it live too as it is happening, with anyone else online. SC2 is shamefully horrible in this respect.
Simpler to find games: not really. Both are a click of a button. In Dota2 you can pick any region to play in. In SC2 you buy a whole new account and install a new client to do the same. That's ridiculous in this day.
Cooler portraits: no comment.
A lot of those things aren't even true for bnet legacy games either. Replays for instance, profiles and the stats they provide
Bnet 2 is just bad. It's objectively worse feature wise and usability wise, there's really no excuse. Blizzard can sell 8 million copies of dogshit in a bag but it's still dogshit at the end of the day
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I recently installed WC3 again because the custom maps are just a thousand times better and I have to agree that B.net 1 is just better than B.net 2 in many respects. But one thing is just a pain in the ass. If you want to join a custom game as a party you have to either find the map in the list or someone dictate you the name of the game. I can't just join together with my friends. And good luck with popular maps because those fill up so fast you have no chance to get the name right in time.
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On February 08 2012 22:52 Velr wrote:
Blizzard delivered a product that is worse than their own... Over 10 years older product.
Teehee
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Where do all these people who think SC2: WoL is somehow an incomplete game that Blizzard is still hard at work on come from? The game has already been released and you have been playing it for 2 years. People have been appalled by how bad bnet 2.0 is since the beginning, it hasn't improved over time, and all Blizzard has ever told us about any of the BASIC features we're missing is "Why do you want these features?" or "They won't ship with the game, but it's something we've considered from the start."
They are releasing unpolished products. There used to be a term called "Blizzard polish" because it used to seem like they tried to think of everything to make gamer's lives easier playing their game, now I hear more people saying "noob Blizzard" and "bnet .2 sucks."
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The bnet from 1997 is far more functional, and the new version omits things that have been mainstays in online gaming for years. It's shitty and people absolutely have a right to complain when they spend $60, and the company promises for over a year to fix their crappy product
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Shockk has pretty much done a service to the OP. It's hard to imagine someone from the competitive scene being passively content with the new 0.2 bnet while having a long-term active role from the bnet 1.0 days. And it makes perfect sense to say ignorance is bliss when your introduction point to the system is the beginning of SC2 or offline WC3.
So what is the community who have experienced such a system do?
Much of the new community voices an opinion claiming the old features never were needed anyway and are unnecessary, not knowing how the old system influenced players to develop many online friendships and now missing social aspects. But also, having blizzard turning the other cheek endlessly, and furthermore having Bashiok give some half-assed explanation that misses the point entirely regardless. It's all very frustrating.
It would be quite a scene to see blizzard take in 10-20 of some the top active and scene oriented people for a day or two who have been around long term, say since the mid or early 2000's, and just pick their brain on what would socially work. I'd imagine the final product, paired with a side of blizzard that actually gave a shit would be quite impressive.
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EPT
