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So, as my laddering works just like a ladder, going up and down in the bronze league, I'm finding myself more than once being accused of cheesing. It always comes to me as a surprise. Three instances cross my mind, none of which seem to be cheesing to me, but they stick out in my mind as the most common accusations from each race.
Terran: I build 5 rax, 4 with reactors, 1 tech lab and then expand. Pump out 30+ marines and then charge in with my marines + a few marauders. I don't try to sneak a rax in their base, or put a bunker at their ramp, none of them are proxy, all are just walled off in my base and I go for the win with brute force. If they kill off one wave, another wave is soon to follow. It is a bloodbath for my marines usually; however, given a few waves, most of the time, their defenses fall and my marines get to their gooey caramel center. I do lose on occasion with this, but I'm not seeing any underhanded or cheesy tactics, just constant pressure and force. However, this is my most common cheese accusation. Oddly, this of those listed, this is the one I have the hardest time viewing as cheese.
Zerg: Similar their Terran counterparts, lately I've been going approx 15 pool, then expand, wait for speed boost and send 30-50 speedlings into my opponents base. As they are off romping and frollicking, more get spawned and sent in. If I can possibly get to my opponent's mineral line so the speedlings can play with the workers, all the better. I am playing fricking zerg, my swarm descends on my opponent, why is this "cheesing" my opponent?
Protoss: With the Protoss, I can somewhat see the accusation, a little, if I squint really hard and look at it sideways, like one of those magic eye photos. I basically start out with a 3 gate build, depending on the map, I shoot for either a 3 gate robo or a forge fast expand. I start to amass some defenses, while I work towards a dark shrine. Pop out a few dark templar and go explore their base hoping for no detection. If there is no detection, hurray I will likely win! If there is detection, I place DTs at strategic points around the map as surprises and start amassing a death ball in my base. Make my opponent think about what he is doing. (A few DTs slaughtering a group of collasi is so much fun.  ) And if I can warp a few into the back/an unguarded part of their base, all the better! I actually has someone beat me, despite my attempts and then after the game told me to take my cheese elsewhere after it was over. (He was one of the ones where DTs massacred collasi early on.)
All I can figure is that cheese is doing something the opponent doesn't expect. But isn't that what you're supposed to do?
And maybe I shouldn't get so upset over the cannon rushes and the rax/bunker in my base, I should have caught it in the first place. ~places a pylon/supply depot by the ramp, just in case~
What do you do that you get accused of cheese with that seems a reasonable strat?
Where do you draw the line at when defining cheese?
And of course, there is always the ultimate question when talking cheese....the big puffy cheetos or the skinny crunchy ones?
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Well I think most people view cheese as something where you're cutting a lot of economy in order to get a strong attack earlier than usual, for example with your terran one, you could have expanded off 1,2 or 3 barracks then added the others, but you expanded much later. With the zerg example, every 2 lings is a missing drone.
I'm not saying cheesing is wrong as it's part of the game. In all likelihood, they are just angry that you beat them, and they should have scouted better//made more units.
Typically if people expand earlier than you, and you expand and then dont attack immediately they should be able to have more units than you when you attack unless your build is better, macro is better, or they put too much money into workers, so it's their fault and not yours.
I also hate DTs myself but as a zerg player, I know I have to be ready by past the 6-7 min mark with detection for banshees or dts in all vt/vp if i haven't scouted them well !
gl
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I really like your thread name, and I think it is certainly apt in the lower levels. No offense intended, but I think that a large percentage of Bronze-Gold players would not have the best understanding of what cheese is. I can see a lot of players at those levels claiming cheese simply because you used DT's regardless of the fact that it was after an expansion, simply because they find it hard to deal with with their mechanics or tech choices. So I really think it is a combination of a lack of understanding of the term cheese and the frustration caused by being confronted by something that they find hard to deal with or that they were unprepared for.
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Interesting. Granted, 3 out of 4 times in my zerg and terran examples, my opponent is still on one base as well. (At least against protoss and terrans. Zerg usually have 2 although Zerg in general seem to be rare.) So that means they are cheesing too! 
And for the record, I prefer the crunchy cheetos. The puffy ones always feel stale to me, because I expect that crunch and it never comes.
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On November 15 2011 23:34 techempage wrote:
And for the record, I prefer the crunchy cheetos. The puffy ones always feel stale to me, because I expect that crunch and it never comes.
Good man. Crunchy cheetos and their varities are superior to the puffy cheetos. Jalapeno, flamin' hot, regular.. all great
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The Terran and Zerg builds that you describe do sound pretty cheesy to me. At a higher level, massing speedlings early or making 5 rax before expanding as Terran would be considered super cheesy 1-base all-ins.
However, at lower levels, it is harder to define it as "cheese" because you may just need those 5 rax to be able to spend your money efficiently (e.g. if you are macroing well, 5 rax with add-ons is completely unsustainable off of 1 base. At a lower level, getting those 5 rax will help because you can spend any money you bank quickly), and cutting your econ as Zerg to make 30-50 lings might not put you very behind in econ against a bronze league opponent (they probably will not have been building workers optimally).
Also, I'm a big fan of the puffy cheetos. Sorry.
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Hi fellow Bronzie! You're probably getting yelled at for no reason. I think of cheese as a 6 pool or proxy rax or something that is going to come at me hard before I would have a solid defense. DTs are definitely not cheese, people get mad loosing to them because they made a mistake. (Example - it seems like every game I play vs. Terran where I have only one obs. and no forge cloaked banshees come my way and ruin my economy. This is not cheese, it's me being unprepared for cloaked banshees. But it really makes me hate cloaked banshees. With fiery passion.) I think that low-level players just hate on people when they lose quickly.
Recently I decided that I was going to try to build pylons in peoples bases and 4gate and see what happened. The best part of this is, before the 4gate was ready, a lot of opponents built structures in vision range of my pylon ... and left it alone! Most of the time I got yelled at (duh, scout your own base!!) but one guy did give me a GG WP. It may also be a maturity level - some people can handle it when they lose to something like that, and chalk it up to experience, but most people just get pissed.
Crunchy cheetos FTW!!!! I think I will got buy some to have with my lunch, now that you mentioned it ... yummy.
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As others have said its hard to define cheese in bronze but.
terran- I dont see how with this build you would ever be able to expand so bascially your attack either works or you lose so that would fit an all in to me.
zerg- You are just hoping your lings do dmg. Im assuming your doing this blind so really your just basically taking a chance that your huge sacrafice in eco might do dmg.
Protoss- this seems like the least cheesy build to me. Probally at your level when anybody gets cloaked banshees or dts they probally just say its cheese.
But really who cares just refine your builds macro better and monch on your opponents ladder points.
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Agreed, cheese will never have a concrete definition; it changes with the metagame and every player has a different idea of what constitutes cheese. I prefer to have a broad definition that hopes to capture the essence of cheese or all ins: a cheese is a strategy that, if it fails, leaves the cheeser behind (could be due to economy or anything else).
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On November 16 2011 02:09 Darkdeath3 wrote:
As others have said its hard to define cheese in bronze but.
terran- I dont see how with this build you would ever be able to expand so bascially your attack either works or you lose so that would fit an all in to me.
Usually I expand right after I start the 5th Rax. I notice if I forgot, because minerals start getting tight. (either that or I forgot a MULE) And if I send out all my troops at once, usually I have another 9 troops < 30 seconds away to defend.
zerg- You are just hoping your lings do dmg. Im assuming your doing this blind so really your just basically taking a chance that your huge sacrafice in eco might do dmg.
Generally I don't do it blind. I have overlords to scout. Once the first couple of waves get sent, if I'm making progress, I stick with lings, otherwise, I try and balance out lings and drones to get my economy humming.
Protoss- this seems like the least cheesy build to me. Probally at your level when anybody gets cloaked banshees or dts they probally just say its cheese.
But really who cares just refine your builds macro better and monch on your opponents ladder points.
True. I've found sticking with these three builds has given me a much higher success rate and keeps my minerals much lower than whatever I was trying before. Heh. It may just be because I have a coherent plan, as opposed to being very reaction oriented.
Well...I did have a plan with terran before 5 rax but after that 2 hour game where my opponent finally cussed at me and gave up, I decided that while a PF expand build is fun, it takes too damn long.
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I regard cheese a zerg opening hatch first and a toss opening 1 gate expo. I despise such cheeses and crush them with an all in. I also feel certain hate towards my opponents' cheesy eco openings since they force me, the terran (the most defensive race, FYI), to abandon my gameplan and try to DEMOLISH the cheesy toss/zerg as it is impossible for terran to have the same eco as an eco zerg or toss. Sc is a straange game.
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On November 16 2011 03:08 WickedSkies wrote:
I regard cheese a zerg opening hatch first and a toss opening 1 gate expo. I despise such cheeses and crush them with an all in. I also feel certain hate towards my opponents' cheesy eco openings since they force me, the terran (the most defensive race, FYI), to abandon my gameplan and try to DEMOLISH the cheesy toss/zerg as it is impossible for terran to have the same eco as an eco zerg or toss. Sc is a straange game.
This seems rather silly. 15hatch is probably the most common and standard opener for ZvT, and a 1 rax expo or CC first will leave the Terran on equal ground economically. Anyways, I think it's weird to use "cheese" for greedy openings, as the poster above me linked, cheese is generally defined as a strategy that must not be scouted in order to win. However, greedy openings do not at all fall into this definition. Most greedy openings (like 15 hatch or 1 gate expo, which are standard at this point) can not deny the opponent scouting of what they are doing.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
On November 16 2011 03:08 WickedSkies wrote:
I regard cheese a zerg opening hatch first and a toss opening 1 gate expo. I despise such cheeses and crush them with an all in. I also feel certain hate towards my opponents' cheesy eco openings since they force me, the terran (the most defensive race, FYI), to abandon my gameplan and try to DEMOLISH the cheesy toss/zerg as it is impossible for terran to have the same eco as an eco zerg or toss. Sc is a straange game.
it doesn't matter what you regard it as, those things plain and simple aren't cheese. you don't just assign random strategies you don't like playing against as cheese rofl
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On November 16 2011 05:04 intrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 03:08 WickedSkies wrote:
I regard cheese a zerg opening hatch first and a toss opening 1 gate expo. I despise such cheeses and crush them with an all in. I also feel certain hate towards my opponents' cheesy eco openings since they force me, the terran (the most defensive race, FYI), to abandon my gameplan and try to DEMOLISH the cheesy toss/zerg as it is impossible for terran to have the same eco as an eco zerg or toss. Sc is a straange game. it doesn't matter what you regard it as, those things plain and simple aren't cheese. you don't just assign random strategies you don't like playing against as cheese rofl
to be fair cheese is a pretty general and vague term. Most people would say it's a rush/proxy build that if scouted fails, but other definitions are like 1 base all ins and even 2 base all ins.
If you think about it, all of this stuff just boils down to lack of scouting and being able to adapt in response to whatever you scout in time if you do scout.
So in other words, anyone who complains about cheese just needs to scout more/learn what to build to counter all ins.
So by that definition, then yes, some greedy macro based opening can be considered cheese. Especially since the only way to outright counter it is if you blindly open some rush build because you can't really punish it if scouted at that point in the game.
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On November 16 2011 05:04 intrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 03:08 WickedSkies wrote:
I regard cheese a zerg opening hatch first and a toss opening 1 gate expo. I despise such cheeses and crush them with an all in. I also feel certain hate towards my opponents' cheesy eco openings since they force me, the terran (the most defensive race, FYI), to abandon my gameplan and try to DEMOLISH the cheesy toss/zerg as it is impossible for terran to have the same eco as an eco zerg or toss. Sc is a straange game. it doesn't matter what you regard it as, those things plain and simple aren't cheese. you don't just assign random strategies you don't like playing against as cheese rofl
Sir, allow me to politely diagree (and secretly memorize your nickname in my memory as I am sure if we meet on ladder you will cheese me with hatch first or 1 gate nexus which I would have to crush so I make you stick to non cheese games. Cheese spoils your skill, you know...)
I am acutely aware with the definition of cheese. Cheese is any strategy that heavily relies on your opponents misinformation/inadequate response to gain a massive advantage and outright put the cheeser in a winner position.
Cheese also tends to fall apart to scouting and using the adequate strategy to prevent it.
So by this very definition you see that opening hatch first/ 1 gate nexus falls into the category of cheese as it gives the eco cheeser a massive amount of advantage and tends to fall apart to scouting and adequate response(5 rax + scv all in vs zerg or a 1/1/1 against toss).
Hope i meet more cheesers on ladder.
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On November 16 2011 16:46 WickedSkies wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:04 intrigue wrote:On November 16 2011 03:08 WickedSkies wrote:
I regard cheese a zerg opening hatch first and a toss opening 1 gate expo. I despise such cheeses and crush them with an all in. I also feel certain hate towards my opponents' cheesy eco openings since they force me, the terran (the most defensive race, FYI), to abandon my gameplan and try to DEMOLISH the cheesy toss/zerg as it is impossible for terran to have the same eco as an eco zerg or toss. Sc is a straange game. it doesn't matter what you regard it as, those things plain and simple aren't cheese. you don't just assign random strategies you don't like playing against as cheese rofl Sir, allow me to politely diagree (and secretly memorize your nickname in my memory as I am sure if we meet on ladder you will cheese me with hatch first or 1 gate nexus which I would have to crush so I make you stick to non cheese games. Cheese spoils your skill, you know...) I am acutely aware with the definition of cheese. Cheese is any strategy that heavily relies on your opponents misinformation/inadequate response to gain a massive advantage and outright put the cheeser in a winner position. Cheese also tends to fall apart to scouting and using the adequate strategy to prevent it. So by this very definition you see that opening hatch first/ 1 gate nexus falls into the category of cheese as it gives the eco cheeser a massive amount of advantage and tends to fall apart to scouting and adequate response(5 rax + scv all in vs zerg or a 1/1/1 against toss). Hope i meet more cheesers on ladder.
It's Greedy not Cheesey I don't care what you try to call it.
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Your terran build is cheesy as hell sharp cheddar with a side of mozzarella, your zerg build is moderate cheese, your toss build isn't really cheese at all imo.
In starcraft there is a thing called the "metagame", this is baisically what does your average user do, and what are the most popular builds. Your standard terran is going to 1 or 2 rax expand, that is the standard opening for a macro game, just as zerg will either hatch first or speedling too hatch, and protoss will 2-3gate expo or FFE. When you deviate far from this metagame people tend to get pissed off cause they wanted to play a standard game. Ofcourse deviating from the metagame is not a bad thing per se, but deviating it to go proxy 2 gate is cheese, deviating from the metagame in the late game is just smart and not cheese at all.
So if your average terran user is making 1-2 barracks before command center, making 5 barracks before command center is very cheesy, as you're sacrificing any chance you have at winning a late game for doing an early attack. Pretty much any attack that comes before 5 minute mark in the game is cheese. Using a structure that is designed for defense as an offensive weapon is cheese, ie cannon rushing.
Things like dt, void ray, banshee, aren't cheese, they simply do what they are designed to do, while they are cheesey, they aren't pure cheese. Cheese is sitting on 1 base and basically making units and mining that base out and going 1a accross the map. If you are thinking to yourself, well fuck I have no idea, but I hope this is going to work, your probably cheesing.
This fool in this thread wickedskies needs to stfu dont listen to him, you can say tomato/tomatoh, or potato/potatoh, but you cant call a fucking donkey a zebra.
Here are some confirmed cheese builds:
cannon rush
proxy 2 gates zealot rush
5-6 rax 1 base terran marine
3-6 rax marine scv all-in
6pool
7pool
8pool
9pool shit any pool that comes before 14 if its not zvz imo.
That being said, in bronze league other than 6pool/proxygate/marine scv all-in nothing is really cheese. On a personal note though, you seem to be focused a lot on killing your opponent in 5-7 minutes, try playing some longer games, all the good timings come after 10 minutes. Instead of making 5 rax, try two rax and expand, defend your expo, and then go up to 5 rax and some tech/upgrades and attack.
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On November 16 2011 20:19 TheGiftedApe wrote:
That being said, in bronze league other than 6pool/proxygate/marine scv all-in nothing is really cheese. On a personal note though, you seem to be focused a lot on killing your opponent in 5-7 minutes, try playing some longer games, all the good timings come after 10 minutes. Instead of making 5 rax, try two rax and expand, defend your expo, and then go up to 5 rax and some tech/upgrades and attack.
5 to 7 mins?
I'm doing something horribly wrong then. 
I just went through my last two Terran wins, I was still building my 5th Rax at the 7 minute mark on both games and only a couple were upgraded yet.
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I was going to say one base attacks aren't very refined in bronze leagues and they would be less efficient and take longer to get to than higher leagues. As you just mentioned yourself. So if you're not doing a cheese from the get go. I think as long as you know you've built more units than your opponent, why not just go kill him.
Aggressive timing attacks that damages your late game are frowned upon, just look at the hate on some threads/guides like the TangSC guides. Things like the 5 rax, they should have scouted it, suspected something is fishy and had prepared for it. If you can pull it off well, then it's a risk you have to take, cos you have do damage otherwise it can set you way back. If you scout that they have been very greedy and over extended themselves and you want to punish them for it, there are better builds I'm sure that allows a decent strong attack that's not too costly on your economy. You'll get promoted in no time!
If you get in the mind set to concentrate on macro, and getting a good economy to allow efficient army production, then then attack once you hit 200 and see what happens. I mean from what you described if the games went on later you would have steamrolled these guys anyway. It's Bronze league nothing to worry about if they complain, they probably don't know any better. Good luck to you and if you're having fun playing like this then you shouldn't care what people think, it's up to you whether you want to improve though.
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Calgary25996 Posts
I think there's little value defining cheese. The best player should be willing and able to play all styles. Why is playing for a 30-minute game any more admirable than playing for a 6-minute one?
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I like define cheese as a strategy without a next step. It's like alright I'll go 5 rax, make marines and win. Done and Done. That's cheese. (Day9 reference to the max)
But this is a special case because you're in bronze league and your opponent will probably not be able to make the right decisions or even have the right build order to outright shut it down if he had played standard. Standard in Bronze is definitely not standard in Masters, that's why its tough to label your strats as cheese or not haha.
Going by my definition of cheese, yes indeed your zerg and terran strats are cheese or "all-in". All-in is the nicer term to use but they're pretty damn similar. I think cheese is better used for the super early game strats like 6pool, worker rush, cannon rush, etc. All-in is like the fancy gentleman trying to swindle you, while cheese can be the fat drunk guy trying to hook up with the hot chick at the bar while she's wasted.
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On November 16 2011 20:19 TheGiftedApe wrote:
Your terran build is cheesy as hell sharp cheddar with a side of mozzarella, your zerg build is moderate cheese, your toss build isn't really cheese at all imo.
In starcraft there is a thing called the "metagame", this is baisically what does your average user do, and what are the most popular builds. Your standard terran is going to 1 or 2 rax expand, that is the standard opening for a macro game, just as zerg will either hatch first or speedling too hatch, and protoss will 2-3gate expo or FFE. When you deviate far from this metagame people tend to get pissed off cause they wanted to play a standard game. Ofcourse deviating from the metagame is not a bad thing per se, but deviating it to go proxy 2 gate is cheese, deviating from the metagame in the late game is just smart and not cheese at all.
So if your average terran user is making 1-2 barracks before command center, making 5 barracks before command center is very cheesy, as you're sacrificing any chance you have at winning a late game for doing an early attack. Pretty much any attack that comes before 5 minute mark in the game is cheese. Using a structure that is designed for defense as an offensive weapon is cheese, ie cannon rushing.
Things like dt, void ray, banshee, aren't cheese, they simply do what they are designed to do, while they are cheesey, they aren't pure cheese. Cheese is sitting on 1 base and basically making units and mining that base out and going 1a accross the map. If you are thinking to yourself, well fuck I have no idea, but I hope this is going to work, your probably cheesing.
This fool in this thread wickedskies needs to stfu dont listen to him, you can say tomato/tomatoh, or potato/potatoh, but you cant call a fucking donkey a zebra.
Here are some confirmed cheese builds:
cannon rush
proxy 2 gates zealot rush
5-6 rax 1 base terran marine
3-6 rax marine scv all-in
6pool
7pool
8pool
9pool shit any pool that comes before 14 if its not zvz imo.
That being said, in bronze league other than 6pool/proxygate/marine scv all-in nothing is really cheese. On a personal note though, you seem to be focused a lot on killing your opponent in 5-7 minutes, try playing some longer games, all the good timings come after 10 minutes. Instead of making 5 rax, try two rax and expand, defend your expo, and then go up to 5 rax and some tech/upgrades and attack.
Did you just call me a fool in TL? Did you just tell me to stfu? Did you just blatantly disregard my opinion, without providing solid arguments? Your post, sir, is a disgrace for TL and in my honest opinion, does not even deserve my reply. TL is a place for discussion, and not for insults and rage.
Donkey or zebra, eco cheese is still cheese and should be crushed as such by executing a meticulously prepared all in so the poor cheeser doesn't know what hit him and gets rid of this naughty habit. All in all, I just wonder why any people in any league feel like they are entitled to a longer game. If you are that outright stupid and do 1 gate Nexus on close positions vs a terran/zerg/toss, what do you expect, roses? If I can end it in 1 minute, I will, and it is the eco cheeser's stupidity that makes that possible for me. So, good luck on ladder cheesing. I prefer solid openings with thought behind them.
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i 1-1-1 every game against every race every time . why do i care if people cry and whine if they hold it they hold if they dont they dont . i am going to keep playing how i want be it macro cheese or other wise people really shoudnt tell u how to play YOUR game !!
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On November 16 2011 05:04 intrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 03:08 WickedSkies wrote:
I regard cheese a zerg opening hatch first and a toss opening 1 gate expo. I despise such cheeses and crush them with an all in. I also feel certain hate towards my opponents' cheesy eco openings since they force me, the terran (the most defensive race, FYI), to abandon my gameplan and try to DEMOLISH the cheesy toss/zerg as it is impossible for terran to have the same eco as an eco zerg or toss. Sc is a straange game. it doesn't matter what you regard it as, those things plain and simple aren't cheese. you don't just assign random strategies you don't like playing against as cheese rofl
What intrigue said.
Also, there is no such thing as "most defensive race". You can play defensively or aggressively as any race... Maybe you were struggling to find the word resilient?
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