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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
On May 15 2011 08:31 apalemorning wrote: you sound so incredibly bitter. it's literally leaking through my computer screen. I'll append it with one of these next time.  It seems to make people feel better about me. | ||
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sikyon
Canada1045 Posts
On May 15 2011 06:21 Djzapz wrote: I live in Quebec, Canada, and I've been on Teamliquid.net for a little bit. In "real life", I haven't really had the chance to argue about many important topics with people as my friends and most of the people I talk to agree with me. If we're to bring up topics like abortion, almost everyone is pro-choice as apparently we're morally superior (sorry!). I know that the rest of Canada, and even the rest of Quebec, can be very different from the values most have in this town. There have been many topics about capital punishment and even torture and I was surprised to see how many TL users seem to be very much in favor of capital punishment and even physical torture to criminals. Currently, there's a thread on general forums about a man who defaced a woman with acid. Today, he's supposed to get blinded by the government of Iran. An absolutely frightening number of teamliquid users are in support of that disgusting punishment. But what was even worse to me is that I always thought of "my country" as an advanced society - one beyond that kind of barbaric BS. However, I notice that many, many Canadians are in favor of this. The thread is absolutely clogged with comments from people from Canada saying "I like that legal system" and "he should suffer more". I'm not into nationalism, I don't care for it one bit. I don't relate to Canadians more than I relate to Australians or Zimbabweans or people from any other country. However, I'll admit that I feel a bit of shame. I shouldn't since we merely share a landmass, but part of me is ashamed anyway - or at the very least I'm incredibly disappointed. A part of me still believes and hopes that people who are posting on those threads don't represent the opinion of TL. I guess the more civilized people kind of gave up. Regardless, I'm posting this because in recent years, I've been discovering that Canada is not what I imagined it to be. Funny that I made so many assumptions about my own country and I was so awfully wrong... It's weird. I'm very sad about it. Oh well. Just wanted to vent a little. Were you not paying attention in the last election? Quebec is NDP dominated but most of Canada has Conservative support. Quebec has always been somewhat isolated from the rest of Canada. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On May 15 2011 06:21 Djzapz wrote: You should be happy instead of being sad. You just started to realize you're a citizen of the world and not only a citizen of Canada Regardless, I'm posting this because in recent years, I've been discovering that Canada is not what I imagined it to be. Funny that I made so many assumptions about my own country and I was so awfully wrong... It's weird. And start to realize a citizen of anywhere isn't different any other. It's just people, people are the same anywhere.Instead of being sad because Canada isn't as nice as you thought. You should be happy to realize that Canada isn't different from anywhere else. This should open your mind to understand the world. Knowledge empowers you. You should be smiling in joy ^^ | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On May 15 2011 08:24 MoltkeWarding wrote: And I feel sad when I go into a local university discothek, and see young people (the future of the nation, the ones in whom we are "investing" billions in public funds, the agents of progress) behaving like Neanderthals and badly-strung marionettes. I am certain that not a few of them profess enlightened views on justice, abortion, torture, and nationalism, and perhaps some of them even share those views on tl.net So you see, the real barbarian at the gates is not out there in Iran or Texas. If you want to vent at him, you need go no further than look in the mirror. Blows my mind that you'd use so many words to say something that doesn't make any sense. Calling me a barbarian? Hah. It's pitiful what kind of poorly thought arguments come out of those guys. If they think they can convince people with that, it's no wonder they're so easily fooled into ridiculous ideologies. On May 15 2011 08:41 sikyon wrote: Were you not paying attention in the last election? Quebec is NDP dominated but most of Canada has Conservative support. Quebec has always been somewhat isolated from the rest of Canada. I was paying attention, yes. As much as I dislike the conservative government (I despise it), I like to think that even someone as unlikable as Harper wouldn't go so far as to say "he should suffer more". Stephen Harper is better than that -- and trust me I don't say a lot of good things about him. On May 15 2011 08:41 VIB wrote: You should be happy instead of being sad. You just started to realize you're a citizen of the world and not only a citizen of Canada And start to realize a citizen of anywhere isn't different any other. It's just people, people are the same anywhere.Instead of being sad because Canada isn't as nice as you thought. You should be happy to realize that Canada isn't different from anywhere else. This should open your mind to understand the world. Knowledge empowers you. You should be smiling in joy ^^ Well I guess there's a positive side, but in the end, I'm sad because people are like that... I could have written the same OP without mentioning Canada, and it would have been about how I'm disappointed with the world. That wouldn't be "new" though. | ||
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Pathology
Canada132 Posts
My words might sound like I'm taking a stance, but really I can't. I do know the definition of right and wrong is dynamic depending on who you are talking to. My problem with the situation is that if this man were to serve a prison sentence and lived through it, he'd start his life again like nothing had happened. Maybe a little more challenging to find a job? After he starts his life again she will still be disfigured and (possibly) alone. Tell me again how its disgusting to want to punish that man in some way other then a prison sentence. | ||
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Pathology
Canada132 Posts
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VPCursed
1044 Posts
On May 15 2011 07:06 n.DieJokes wrote: What? I don't understand how the anecdote has anything to do with the quoted post well, i was replying to the "that attitude is an american problem" more so then anything else he wrote. the "eye for an eye" retribution type thinking... with no compassion for the criminal. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On May 15 2011 09:36 Pathology wrote: My problem with the situation is that if this man were to serve a prison sentence and lived through it, he'd start his life again like nothing had happened. Not the case. He'd have lost years of his life and more importantly he'd be removed from the society where he can harm people. Now he'll be in society, he could possibly still hurt people, and might very well adapt to not having his sight. Also, importantly, the government committed an disgusting act of vengeance, accomplishing nothing unless you value retribution over justice. In my mind, this is not justice - not at all. On May 15 2011 09:39 Pathology wrote: side note, I'm upset as someone completely removed from the situation. I'm not particularly violent in any way. However, I would be had this happened to any of my family/friends. Take your moral high ground, I'm quite comfortable where I am. You're perfectly allowed to feel that way, except IMO it's not the government's place to execute people's personal vendettas. When you bring up that if it happened to your family you would be angry, you kind of admit that the position is an emotional one, and IMO it's purely irrational. People can be irrational, governments shouldn't be. | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
Blows my mind that you'd use so many words to say something that doesn't make any sense. Calling me a barbarian? Hah. And as an anti-choice, pro-execution, pro-torture fellow who comes from an "advanced country," I am equally saddened by you, and contemptuous of your calling me a barbarian. Hah. P.S. | ||
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zeru
8156 Posts
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On May 15 2011 10:09 MoltkeWarding wrote: And as an anti-choice, pro-execution, pro-torture fellow who comes from an "advanced country," I am equally saddened by you, and contemptuous of your calling me a barbarian. Hah. P.S. You missed the point of this thread! I didn't mean for it to be a name-calling contest. I didn't call you a douchebag - I said you're barbaric which is defined by cruelty and brutality. Those certainly don't define me or our country. My stance is completely against those things! When people commit those crimes, we remove them from society so that they can't do it anymore. Unfortunately an imperfect system, but with the advantage of being modern and humane. Also, it doesn't get out of its way to satisfy people's need for blood - which is a good thing because satisfying people's blood thirst is an inefficient way to to handle problems. It's an emotional response, and the State shouldn't handle your emotions. That's the basic position I take, obviously it could be much deeper but I wanted to give you an overview. The idea that you could be saddened by me seems absurd though. You're for doing horrible things to human beings, I'm not. I simply can't be offensive, unless I made you sad by criticizing you - which is a minor offense at worst =) | ||
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Pathology
Canada132 Posts
Roughly a year ago in Vancouver British Columbia a woman left a bar fairly drunk. She had admitted this to an undercover policeman in later investigation so there was no doubt to her intoxication (can't remember if she was breathalized at the scene). Either way she grazed a park car went over a speed bump and outright killed a young girl and paralyzed her aunt. This woman cried and put on a show in court and I believe was convicted for 3 years but I believe appealed and her sentence was reduced. This was a hot topic for quite some time as other cases going on in the same month regarding animal cruelty and drug possession had gotten LARGER sentences. (apologies this might as well be anecdotal since I can't find the article regarding it but if anyone else has read this from Van feel free to pipe up) A little girl is dead, and her Aunt paralyzed for life. I don't know what's more barbaric. The acid poured over the man's face to reflect his own heinous actions? Or, this woman who has killed a little girl and paralyzed her aunt who will receive maybe a year or two in prison? When you know the appropriate punishment and the quantitative value to assign to certain crimes, I'll gladly accept your judgement on how your fellow Canadian's have barbaric opinions on the topic. I really don't know the answer, I'm just frustrated that you can call it wrong so easily when we as a country have no grasp on what is right. Oh and those that have the money for better lawyers have a better chance of reduced sentences or none at all. Sounds like justice to me. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On May 15 2011 10:36 Pathology wrote: My point is, I don't think you can look down on a form of punishment when our own correction system is completely flawed. I don't see how that statement makes any sense. I don't base my ideology on the Canadian correction system. I think I'm perfectly entitled to look down on a form of punishment regardless of the status of our current system. I could live in North Korea and it would still be legitimate for me to look down on Iran's practices. Similarly if the punishment was killing the guy's entire family, I'd be opposed to it regardless of my local correction system. A little girl is dead, and her Aunt paralyzed for life. I don't know what's more barbaric. The acid poured over the man's face to reflect his own heinous actions? Or, this woman who has killed a little girl and paralyzed her aunt who will receive maybe a year or two in prison? I wouldn't use the term barbaric in that case but that's just me. English is my second language so maybe I'm just wrong, but the direct translation in French wouldn't really work. But like I said, I won't defend Canada's "justice system" as I don't believe it's just. Iran's is just worse - much, much worse IMO. I'm just frustrated that you can call it wrong so easily when we as a country have no grasp on what is right. I am not my country, neither are you. | ||
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HULKAMANIA
United States1219 Posts
On May 15 2011 10:25 Djzapz wrote: I said you're barbaric which is defined by cruelty and brutality. Those certainly don't define me or our country. My stance is completely against those things! When people commit those crimes, we remove them from society so that they can't do it anymore. Unfortunately an imperfect system, but with the advantage of being modern and humane. I don't know that I would call the prison system humane. Modern? Certainly. Humane? I suppose that depends on your definition of humane. The prison experiences of many inmates, however, include decades of abuse, anxiety, mistreatment, fear, and neglect—all directly or indirectly sanctioned by the society from which they have been "removed." Justice is a difficult issue. Different civilizations have approached this difficult issue in different ways. But I don't know that I would be quick to award the Western penal system a gold star or anything. The one thing that it does do is keep the vile and heinous mistreatment of imprisoned individuals out of the sight of the public so that the citizenry doesn't have to see what their tax dollars are funding. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
Not to mention that a large number of TLers are sixteen and under. On May 15 2011 09:57 Djzapz wrote: Not the case. He'd have lost years of his life and more importantly he'd be removed from the society where he can harm people. Now he'll be in society, he could possibly still hurt people, and might very well adapt to not having his sight. Also, importantly, the government committed an disgusting act of vengeance, accomplishing nothing unless you value retribution over justice. In my mind, this is not justice - not at all. He is also going to prison. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On May 15 2011 11:04 EmeraldSparks wrote: As anywhere else on the internet (or in the world), TL is full of dumbs. It's inescapable. Not to mention that a large number of TLers are sixteen and under. He is also going to prison. Is that so? I guess I'll take your word for now - I should read a proper article on it. I thought it was either jail OR blinding him. | ||
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Pathology
Canada132 Posts
On your second point I would agree in a way. Barbaric doesn't quite fit because it seems more civilized since everyone in the court room is wearing a suit and there is proper legal discourse. But I still feel the same outrage as you seem to feel about this man's acid punishment. I also am not going to really comment on Iran's legal system because I know jack all about it. Really I shouldn't be opening my mouth at all. This is a complicated topic to say the least. I guess all I really wanted to say is I don't know the proper way to prevent tragedies from happening. Burning off that man's face would be wrong, but if you could prevent violence from ever happening again, would you do it? I'm pretty damn sure I would make that trade. As to your third point coun·try/ˈkəntrē/Noun 1. A nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory. 2. The people of a nation. Neither of us can comprise a country, but nonetheless we are a part of it. So sure, we aren't a country by ourselves. What I was trying to say am is collectively (all of us) we don't have it right. I sure wish we could figure it out though. *edit* I also was under the impression he had a choice between jail and acidfacewash. | ||
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LlamaNamedOsama
United States1900 Posts
 ..especially with the whole "non-western = barbaric" and "my views are so enlightened" statements, lol. "True" enlightenment would be engaging in debate and discourse and avoiding unjustified assumptions. Here's a list of assumptions/questions that need to first be answered before you can even approach your view: -what's the function of the legal system? As a deterrent? As a mechanism of retributivism? Or as a restorative system? -what is the relation of ideal justice in relation to said legal system? Are they equivalent? Does the practical necessity of real-world action create some gray area of permissibility? -how do you gauge proportionality? to what extent would you draw the line in violating proportionality, and relate this case to that? -what's "barbarian" or "uncivilized"? I'd just like to note that this kind of dichotomy in thinking is the exact same vein of thinking in the logic of exclusion, where people separate "us" from "them" and thereby commit violence against others. It's also the rhetoric of colonialism, obviously. -how on earth are you connecting the disparate comments of a few people in a specialized forum [starcraft-specific] to a representation of the people from your country, let alone any region? | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
You seem to be hesitant to criticize Iran's practices because Canada's far from perfect, but would you say that we can't criticize Kim Jong Il because Stephen Harper has his flaws too? The reason why I said I'm not my country is I'm not accountable for what it does anyway so when I criticize other countries, I compare them to an ideal situation (a fictitious country, if you will, that seems reasonably plausible). I don't compare them to Canada. I used to say I hate George Bush. I just did. I didn't have to compare him to the PM of Canada. For the rest, you're going for an ideal... I wish the woman had never been defaced in the first place, but we're not that lucky. I would obviously go for that, but given the current state of things, I have to settle for putting people in jail. Like I said, it's imperfect, but as far as I can tell it's the best we've got. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On May 15 2011 11:18 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: I guess I'll need to get my obs as a spotter cause we definitely have someone jumping on a moral high ground here. ..especially with the whole "non-western = barbaric" and "my views are so enlightened" statements, lol. "True" enlightenment would be engaging in debate and discourse and avoiding unjustified assumptions. Here's a list of assumptions/questions that need to first be answered before you can even approach your view: -what's the function of the legal system? As a deterrent? As a mechanism of retributivism? -what is the relation of ideal justice in relation to said legal system? Are they equivalent? Does the practical necessity of real-world action create some gray area of permissibility? -how do you gauge proportionality? to what extent would you draw the line in violating proportionality, and relate this case to that? -what's "barbarian" or "uncivilized"? I'd just like to note that this kind of dichotomy in thinking is the exact same vein of thinking in the logic of exclusion, where people separate "us" from "them" and thereby commit violence against others. It's also the rhetoric of colonialism, obviously. -how on earth are you connecting the disparate comments of a few people in a specialized forum [starcraft-specific] to a representation of the people from your country, let alone any region? "non-western" and "enlightened" are words I would never use for this conversation. This is my point of view and that's it. If you want to give my point of view a geographical location on earth and title it it's your thing but I won't support it. My opinion (quickly): -The legal system prevents criminals from preventing future crimes. It has somewhat of an element of deterrence, but its main point is to remove "bad" people from the population to reduce the amount of harm done to human beings. -When you talk about "ideal justice", I think you're kind of getting outside of the realm of actual possibilities. Grey areas are unavoidable and difficult to gauge. -I don't quite understand the question. I think it kind of leads no where, otherwise pardon my frenchness. -I use barbaric as an adjective, not necessarily saying that the people are barbarians. I don't think there's any kind of dichotomy involved. Barbaric people support cruel "solutions". As for "uncivilized", I guess I tend to compare modern societies to dark ages societies. Perhaps it's not the perfect terminology to use, but we have a tendency to be less barbaric, obviously. Many practices from the dark ages should have been left in the dark ages - like torture. -My bad! | ||
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