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Recent Balance Changes TvZ

Blogs > TechniQ.UK
Post a Reply
TechniQ.UK
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United Kingdom391 Posts
December 04 2010 19:01 GMT
#1
For the following reasons I want to say that I think Zerg has become much stronger than Terran in terms of balance recently. I'm sure this will be a matter of debate but hey maybe some good constructive discussions may come of it.

1) Terran for the last number of patches has just been getting nerfed and Zerg getting beefed up. Major over-reaction on blizzards part to the grumblings of the SC2 Zerg players. This was even reflected in todays patch which again seen dropships nerfed and Zerg buildings beefed up for something like the 3rd time in a row. Which is disheartening.

2) MnM has become practically unviable nowadays at diamond level. I can only speak for Europe but you have a large number of players just going roaches and marching over your marines. You can never produce enough maurauders to counter the amount of roaches Z can get out when its 1/2 base vs 2 base. If you don't lose outright to this then it usually ends up roaches + banelings which are practically impossible to do anything to with MnM. By necessity you get more marines than maurauders and therefore your army quickly dissapears due to roaches and banelings being so effective against marines.

3) Theres talk about terrans having all these options to go for and therefore Zerg is still at a disadvantage. This really isnt correct. Terran going for either a marine heavy opening or some sort of a hellion opening gets shut down instantenously by roaches and can often then lead to a counter and win. What does that leave for terran to do? Well maurauders you can get but they due to the economic position you'll find yourself in will never be en masse till later on so that doesn't solve your problem. Tanks? Sure but were talking siege upgrade + good number of tanks, thats miles away, thats mid game talk. Not to mention it restricts your mobility pretty badly. Apart from that your left with a banshee opening which in my opinion most diamond level players would be able to handle reasonably well but I guess its worth a shot.

4) Next I would like to point to the amount of effort required should you choose to go MnM to keep yourself alive against an army comprised of Roaches/Lings/(sometimes muta) + Banelings. The zerg mainly only has to A+Move where as you need to split everything up and even then your army is at disadvantage. You may have avoided ultimate destruction by banelings but the rest of the Z's units like roaches are getting free hits on your units and your units are no longer in an advantagous position against lings and roaches/mutas as they are so seperated and able to be surrounded. Even should you put in the effort, you'll usually come out with higher unit loses compared to the Zerg in such a skirmish leaving you unable to attack the Zergs economy afterwards and leading eventually to him expanding and rolling over you.

In conclusion I think if anything Zerg has been put in a more advantagious starting point by the recent patches compared to Terran. Certainly I see this reflected even in Europe ladder. I rarely find a terran to play these days, its mainly Z and P I play where as it used to be a terran practically every second game if not more a few months ago. Certainly I've painted a bleak picture here but this has been my experience over the last number of weeks and it's pretty annoying.

Fan of: Acer.Scarlett and Liquid'NonY //
infinitestory
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4053 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-04 19:09:18
December 04 2010 19:08 GMT
#2
I don't even play SC2, and I know that as of patch 1.2 fungal growth no longer hits air units (e.g. medivacs). How can you call that a buff?

edit: and i don't see a dropship nerf anywhere in the patch notes
Translator:3
green.at
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Austria1459 Posts
December 04 2010 19:11 GMT
#3
On December 05 2010 04:08 infinitestory wrote:
I don't even play SC2, and I know that as of patch 1.2 fungal growth no longer hits air units (e.g. medivacs). How can you call that a buff?

edit: and i don't see a dropship nerf anywhere in the patch notes

Are you really surprised that people posting whine threads/blogs might not be very informed :D

(with dropship nerf he means the speed nerf i guess)

Inputting special characters into chat should no longer cause the game to crash.
Sae
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom74 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-04 19:13:04
December 04 2010 19:11 GMT
#4
There was a minor patch today which displayed the old 1.1.3 notes while installing the bugfixes(?) + the PTR, nothing has changed since yesterday in terms of balance I believe.
eXigent.
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Canada2419 Posts
December 04 2010 19:36 GMT
#5
On December 05 2010 04:01 TechniQ.UK wrote:
For the following reasons I want to say that I think Zerg has become much stronger than Terran in terms of balance recently. I'm sure this will be a matter of debate but hey maybe some good constructive discussions may come of it.

1) Terran for the last number of patches has just been getting nerfed and Zerg getting beefed up. Major over-reaction on blizzards part to the grumblings of the SC2 Zerg players. This was even reflected in todays patch which again seen dropships nerfed and Zerg buildings beefed up for something like the 3rd time in a row. Which is disheartening.

2) MnM has become practically unviable nowadays at diamond level. I can only speak for Europe but you have a large number of players just going roaches and marching over your marines. You can never produce enough maurauders to counter the amount of roaches Z can get out when its 1/2 base vs 2 base. If you don't lose outright to this then it usually ends up roaches + banelings which are practically impossible to do anything to with MnM. By necessity you get more marines than maurauders and therefore your army quickly dissapears due to roaches and banelings being so effective against marines.

3) Theres talk about terrans having all these options to go for and therefore Zerg is still at a disadvantage. This really isnt correct. Terran going for either a marine heavy opening or some sort of a hellion opening gets shut down instantenously by roaches and can often then lead to a counter and win. What does that leave for terran to do? Well maurauders you can get but they due to the economic position you'll find yourself in will never be en masse till later on so that doesn't solve your problem. Tanks? Sure but were talking siege upgrade + good number of tanks, thats miles away, thats mid game talk. Not to mention it restricts your mobility pretty badly. Apart from that your left with a banshee opening which in my opinion most diamond level players would be able to handle reasonably well but I guess its worth a shot.

4) Next I would like to point to the amount of effort required should you choose to go MnM to keep yourself alive against an army comprised of Roaches/Lings/(sometimes muta) + Banelings. The zerg mainly only has to A+Move where as you need to split everything up and even then your army is at disadvantage. You may have avoided ultimate destruction by banelings but the rest of the Z's units like roaches are getting free hits on your units and your units are no longer in an advantagous position against lings and roaches/mutas as they are so seperated and able to be surrounded. Even should you put in the effort, you'll usually come out with higher unit loses compared to the Zerg in such a skirmish leaving you unable to attack the Zergs economy afterwards and leading eventually to him expanding and rolling over you.

In conclusion I think if anything Zerg has been put in a more advantagious starting point by the recent patches compared to Terran. Certainly I see this reflected even in Europe ladder. I rarely find a terran to play these days, its mainly Z and P I play where as it used to be a terran practically every second game if not more a few months ago. Certainly I've painted a bleak picture here but this has been my experience over the last number of weeks and it's pretty annoying.



Im a terran player who also struggles against zerg, however I completely disagree with everything you mentioned. If you bought a season ticket to the GSL, you would see the current trend is most definitely opening up with some form of marine build, or marine/hellion build. Both of these opening are very strong, in that they force lings rather than drones.

Secondly, you seem to continually talk about roaches as though they are unbeatable. Roach openings in ZvT are not that great unless its not scouted in time. The biggest problem are banelings once baneling speed has been upgraded. If you watch the GSL tvz games, you can witness some really nice marine splitting in order to negate the power of banelings, and it has certainly worked for many terran players so far.

I think you are most likely playing the MU wrong. I believe the most popular trend right now is marine pressure into early expansion with building blocks/seige tanks. If you watch Jinro vs Moon on Xelnaga caverns, you can see the marine hellion rush into VERY fast tank/expo with building blocks to stop speedling/banelings.

Imo 1 other huge problem that you dont even bring up is mutalisks. You mention that zergs occasionally make them, which is not true. Mutalisks are a staple unit in ZvT as they prevent terran from taking a 3rd/4th base without having to bring a large force of anti-air. If terran decides to push his army to defend the expansions as they setup, it allows the muta/zerg army to harass his main/natural. If he doesnt commit to defending his new expansions, then mutalisks will easily spot it being made and kill it.

The matchup favors each race at different moments, and it certainly is not what you are suggesting it is. May I ask what your current rating is in diamond, and the caliber of opponents you play against? Because it seems your overall understanding is a bit lacking in terms of how the matchup is played.
Grebliv
Profile Joined May 2006
Iceland800 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-04 19:44:51
December 04 2010 19:42 GMT
#6
That nerf you're talking about is old.


Right after 1.1.2 (which had the notes you're talking about) z reprisentation everywhere skyrocketed had 35%~ of the top 200's while only having 25%~ of the players*.

Now it seems to have evened out again somewhat.


The mu seems mostly balanced albeit pretty map/position dependant.

T goes very early pressure or a fe with pretty fast pressure/timing, or just goes for an all in. The goal being to cripple/kill the Z before mutas/mass econ kicks in. How well T succeeds seems to determine the rest of the game. No damage stuck at base fending off mutas = glhf T, lots of damage = gg zerg obv.


*not 100 on this statistic but it was way less than toss and terran which both hover at about 40% of the playerbase each.
ESV Mapmaking!
RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
December 04 2010 19:48 GMT
#7
SMOOOVIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
I thought you got permed on TL a while back, its zephyr how you been buddy<3 do you play actively?
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