it's not like he's trying to say that patriotism makes you a fascist just that fascism often has a base of support due to patriotism. Makes sense to me.
On May 11 2010 08:16 Redmark wrote: it's not like he's trying to say that patriotism makes you a fascist just that fascism often has a base of support due to patriotism. Makes sense to me.
He tied it with fascism specifically, which is just humorous. "Mother Russia" was used for hundreds of years, it never became the quintessence of communism either, if anything it started to fade. Fascism using "patriotic" feelings to promote their ideology is completely normal, why wouldn't you use those to promote everything else?
I would have thought that the most simple and basic prejudice was the love of one's mother or father. Love of a fatherland is rather more complex.
Also obscuring the issue is that the Latin "Patria" cannot be directly translated into "Fatherland," and patriotism in its classical sense is not really an ideology like modern nationalism.
On May 11 2010 08:23 MoltkeWarding wrote: I would have thought that the most simple and basic prejudice was the love of one's mother or father. Love of a fatherland is rather more complex.
On May 11 2010 08:16 Redmark wrote: it's not like he's trying to say that patriotism makes you a fascist just that fascism often has a base of support due to patriotism. Makes sense to me.
He tied it with fascism specifically, which is just humorous. "Mother Russia" was used for hundreds of years, it never became the quintessence of communism either, if anything it started to fade. Fascism using "patriotic" feelings to promote their ideology is completely normal, why wouldn't you use those to promote everything else?
I tied *what* to fascism specifically? What is "it"? If you wish to nitpick about language, what I actually did was linking "these simple sentiments" to fascism, referring to ideals such as those embodied by identifying with a fatherland/motherland, with the ideas that are used by fascist leaders. I did not specifically go "Motherland -> Fascism" like you tried to point out, which doesn't even make sense because there is no reasoning given in the linking relationship.
Having repeatedly defended my own position with evidence, I don't see how your own position is supported in any way. "Mother Russia" may not have been the "quintessence" of Communism, but the sentiment sure as hell didn't hurt:
On May 11 2010 08:02 Random() wrote: "Mother Russia" is more of an American stereotype than something a Russian would use to refer to his country :D
The word that is actually used often is "rodina" that literally means "place of one's birth" without any gender connotations.
Also, "otechestvo" (which is neutral gender, btw) is the more widely used synonym of "otchizna".
It still has female gender in every case besides "otechestvo". And Russians do say "Mother Russia", no one ever used "Father Russia", it makes no sense linguistically.
Yes you can say that, but nobody actually does, except in lyrical context. Historically, the phrase was used in war-time posters and propaganda, but the literal phrase was "Rodina-mat'", not "Mat'-Rossiya" (= "Mother Russia"). The stereotypical war cry "for Mother Russia" has also never existed, it was just "za rodinu".
Also grammatical gender does not necessarily imply semantics. "A dog", "an apple tree", "a bullet" - all have feminine gender in Russian, but that does not mean that one would associate any feminine qualities with a dog or a tree.
On May 11 2010 07:24 Latham wrote: Well, we Polish say "ojczyzna" which means fatherland. Our country's motto (although unofficially) has always been "Bóg, Honor, Ojczyzna" which translates to "God, Honour, Fatherland".
I think it depends a lot on which language you speak. The history of the "image" of your country, probably goes back to the days it was formed, and the language developed. Although poets, always seem to refer to their beloved country as a "she" which might have had a huge influence also over the last couple of centuries.
I believe "Ojczyzna" is still a "she", so you are referring to your country as a feminine object. Btw same word in Russian, "Otchizna"( "Fatherland").
"Ojciec" = father, "ojczyzna" = fatherland (or land of our fathers if you like it longer). You still think it's a "she"? Perhaps you might think that way because the original name of our country "Polska" definitely looks and sounds feminine. Its roots are sexually ambiguous though as it's derived from the word "Polanie" which is the name of the tribe that dominated this area in the early days.
On May 11 2010 08:51 Random() wrote: Yes you can say that, but nobody actually does, except in lyrical context. Historically, the phrase was used in war-time posters and propaganda, but the literal phrase was "Rodina-mat'", not "Mat'-Rossiya" (= "Mother Russia"). The stereotypical war cry "for Mother Russia" has also never existed, it was just "za rodinu".
History of the expression goes way beyond WWII posters and propaganda. Many of the Russian classics were using it; regardless of that "mother russia" doesn't have to be "mat'-rossiya" instead of "rodina-mat'", you shouldn't be using same exact sentence structure while translating, English and Russian languages are very different (yet this expression means the same thing in English no matter how you rotate the words). And rofl at the "war cry".
On May 11 2010 09:58 Manit0u wrote: "Ojciec" = father, "ojczyzna" = fatherland (or land of our fathers if you like it longer). You still think it's a "she"?
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