If you've never seen the Idea Channel, it is quite interesting and worth checking out. Every week they post a video about a topic, asking questions about it and generally just making people think about it.
This week's video is: "Can Video Games Become the Next Great Spectator Sport?" Before you get assumptions about what the video is about or get your panties in a bunch--there will be time for that after the video, trust me--give the video a watch.
Now before you get too up in arms about everything that was said, keep in mind that this guy has probably never watched an MLG or GSL or any kind of SC2 event and is probably basing his opinions on research and facts. That would be like having an opinion about cookies based on their ingredients...
As fans of SC2 and eSports in general, I think we all have a duty to talk to others about our passion and bring them to the light.
What I like about the video is that it makes me think about and remember why I love SC2 and eSports as well as how much it has grown in the last year or so.
What I don't like about the video is how ignorant this guy is of many things, but I'll forgive him that. It seems like the kind of video someone would make if they just found out that people get paid to play SC2 and that there is a competitive scene for SC2.
I really like the part where he outlines the lacks in eSports which prevent it from becoming a larger sport.
There is as of yet no great interface which people are very experienced with to watch eSports from, even if Gameheart and LoL/DotA's interfaces are getting there. Also, the personalities are sorely lacking, the infrastructure is not yet set up, and eSports typically doesn't take itself seriously enough in general. All very good points IMO.
What... I don't... This is so uninformed. Essentially his video is saying, "Nobody has walked up to me and told me the amazing and inspiring story of a pro-gamer so there aren't any."
Pretty good video, I would agree with most points.
- We need more "universal" stats. We, as a community, need to decide what is important (which stats we want to know and be told about). - We need STORIES! We hear all the time about these stories, but commentators (and tournaments and teams and players, etc..) do a TERRIBLE job in narrating and developing the importance and details of these so called stories. - Infrastructure is a wip. We now have gameheart and Blizzards customizable observer interface (huge improvement). And we are always working on more sponsors and everything else that goes into making these things happen.
Imho, I think casters are our weakest link. I play, so I love a great analytical caster (because I want to know how to steal the build/decision making). However!, it is not as entertaining (for a lax player/watcher) so we also need the 'play by play'/'excitement' caster so that we don't fall asleep and know who to root for and why(as this guy correctly points out).
He has some valid points... some not so much.. a yellow line seems low tech compared to the developing observer tools... the stats things weird, American sports seem to love it but its really not so much of a thing over here. But esports real weakness is that as long as people want to watch what they play its going to become more and more a marketing tool for relatively easy free games.
On June 28 2013 08:39 Insomni7 wrote: What... I don't... This is so uninformed. Essentially his video is saying, "Nobody has walked up to me and told me the amazing and inspiring story of a pro-gamer so there aren't any."
He was basically saying there needs to be more storyline development. Like guy above me said, people talk about story lines making things interesting, but there needs to be more emphasis for the casual base (yeah that conversation again). I agree with everything and I also love a more analytical caster, but I love the raw emotion someone like TB brings to his casts. Honestly if I had to choose more guys like artosis or more guys like TB for the development of competitive gaming, I'd chose TB every time.
On June 28 2013 08:39 Insomni7 wrote: What... I don't... This is so uninformed. Essentially his video is saying, "Nobody has walked up to me and told me the amazing and inspiring story of a pro-gamer so there aren't any."
He was basically saying there needs to be more storyline development. Like guy above me said, people talk about story lines making things interesting, but there needs to be more emphasis for the casual base (yeah that conversation again). I agree with everything and I also love a more analytical caster, but I love the raw emotion someone like TB brings to his casts. Honestly if I had to choose more guys like artosis or more guys like TB for the development of competitive gaming, I'd chose TB every time.
I wish SC2 tournaments showed us more storylines instead of telling us about them. Instead of the casters telling us how good these players are or what rivalry they have, I wish they had highlights and interviews with the players themselves talking about moments.
Example: WCS EU S1 Finals: MVP vs Stephano. The storyline to avid viewers is that MVP is the King of Wings, but perhaps now has his doubters that his injuries and time have caught up with him. Some people say he fled to EU because he got knocked out of KR and can't cut it. Stephano is going to retire, but can he show us he still has what it takes and end while on top? Instead of having casters tell us, it would've been nice (if time allowed) to have sat MVP and Stephano down and have them talk about how they feel about that and splice it in with gameplay footage of the past. It will show us the storyline and get us emotionally invested, instead of having us imagine it all because we're just told it (if even that).
The problem I see is in SC2 people get connected to players if they win a lot or if they have a personality that shows on stream or in the few interviews they do. I think SC2 should create more content so we know and care about almost all the players. Who are they, why do they play, where are they coming from, etc. Some tournaments do this better than others. OGN did this a bit with WCS S1 finals where they had interview footage of the players around Korea: .
Does he completely ignore IdrA's story to Korea? I don't know how he would feel playing starcraft all day for 2 years in a house where noone speaks english.
On June 28 2013 09:16 Holdenintherye wrote: About the storylines, isn't that what WCS is for? A way to unify the entire scene through a cohesive league?
It does a very crappy job of it and to the guy right above me. You know he wasn't the first guy to do that you know. I agree with the stats (lack thereof and stupid stats like overlapping BW with SC2 stats huehuehue) and our storytelling/production value absolutely sucks.
On June 28 2013 12:39 StarStruck wrote: and to the guy right above me. You know he wasn't the first guy to do that you know.
But he was one with the most dedication into it, he simply kept practicing even when results were not mirroring his practice and it paid off. edit: dreamhack has pretty good production and storyline built into it, its pretty much the only tournament i watch.
On June 28 2013 09:02 Prplppleatr wrote: Pretty good video, I would agree with most points.
- We need more "universal" stats. We, as a community, need to decide what is important (which stats we want to know and be told about). - We need STORIES! We hear all the time about these stories, but commentators (and tournaments and teams and players, etc..) do a TERRIBLE job in narrating and developing the importance and details of these so called stories. - Infrastructure is a wip. We now have gameheart and Blizzards customizable observer interface (huge improvement). And we are always working on more sponsors and everything else that goes into making these things happen.
Imho, I think casters are our weakest link. I play, so I love a great analytical caster (because I want to know how to steal the build/decision making). However!, it is not as entertaining (for a lax player/watcher) so we also need the 'play by play'/'excitement' caster so that we don't fall asleep and know who to root for and why(as this guy correctly points out).
Mmmm. Yes. I watched this video a few times and have been thinking about it all day. Some of my thoughts.
First of all, Listen to some of those stats that Mike shoots off: IPL 5 had 6 million viewers. Six mother fucking million people watched IPL 5. Starcraft 2 has only been broadcast for 3 years. Live internet broadcasting on any sort of scale in any decent quality is also brand new. He says "next big spectator sport" like it isn't already. How many people watched the finals of Texas Hold 'em this year? Women's competitive Trick Billiards? The X-Games? Relatively speaking eSports as an industry is a wunderkind.
Speaking about the broader storyline, it's ironic that the place where the people have the greatest respect and deepest enthusiasm for players is in the place where acts of personality (beyond humility) are largely hidden. In Korea, until they are the best, or challenging the best, players rarely show us trash talk or celebrations. Stephano was warned for typing "gl hf" at te beginning of his first match in the Korean Studio. Instead, the deep story lines are coded into long relationships and are largely inaccessible. Personally, I've watched a shit ton of starcraft 2. I still have a hard time keeping up with players and story lines, occasionally hearing about a name again, vaguely recalling some performance. Blizzard is trying to amend this by unifying the world's leagues and simplifying the comparing system with WCS (but then they realized how much of a crazy logistical burden coordinating a global, multi-tiered league can be, gl hf NASL).
As for stats, Starcraft needs a heuristics overhaul. The talk of casters is all about "epic, sold, macro, micro, build orders, map scores, GSL" and there isn't a great caster who makes the narrative accessible to a lay-person audience member who may not have all of the jargon down. There are gaping holes in the understanding of Starcraft 2 and what makes a good player. What are the keys to victory? What means utter defeat? How does a player come back? What does a decision mean in the broader scope of the game? That question's hard. It's not APM. It's not worker count. It's not mineral count (in fact, seeing high resources is a bad thing. How counter-intuitive is that?). There are very few clear measures of a player's performance to clearly outline an advantage. Caster need a very deep understanding of build orders to get subtle hints about players plans in the game. A difference of 30 seconds to a gas timing can drastically change a tech path. Day[9], Grubby, Gretorp, Frodan and Rotterdam are the casters I see whose deep understanding of build orders helps their cast. Apollo is very good, too, but since he's been hanging out with that up-to-no-good-2-Good...
Surprise, a caster needs to cut through the noise to get at the story so an audience member can digest it. Mike hits the nail on the head when he says that we don't need more people to give us technical rehashings of the battle we're seeing. We can SEE IT. I don't need to be told that lings are attacking the army if I see a stream of lings attacking a mass of units. What will improve casting in general is if we can give casters something to talk about that's relevant and tell me how that means an incoming drop will be that much more devastating because the lings are gone. Give us some sort of expectation as to what is happening and how that affects what we will see later in the game.
Starcraft has it rough with stat comparisons. Build orders need catchy names to be noticed, and until one has a very deep understanding of those build orders it's tough to see the brillance without clunky explanations.
I've been watching a bunch of Dota 2 since TI2. I'll admit it, I got bored at the end of WoL and cheated on my beloved. But SC2 was only my dearest beloved because it was my first. Now there is room in my heart for another, and her name is Dota. She was a calligraphy enthusiast with a slight overbite and hair the color of strained--- sorry, it's getting late. I haven't played Dota since TFT, and I was terrible at it. Since I've been watching it I've worked hard to learn all the crazy jargon associated with all the positions, items, carry lane support mid gank BKB IG CK (I still don't know what the hell CS stands for. Creep Solutions? Cancer Snakes? Who knows). I don't have any good ideas about improving the Starcraft experience because the bench marks are so tough to correlate. But I do have a few ideas about Dota.
Dota offers the chance to get really in depth with things to sink one's teeth into, at least statistically. But I have no idea how deep the stats are tracked. I know there's that Dota 2 website compiling all sort of stats but I don't know how to use it. If the Dota 2 statistics scene was where it should be we could analyze stats across a wide range of areas and get a clearer insight into victory. I propose stat trackers for players on heroes, where we can access average GPM, win ratios, courier kills, k/d/a averages, give us deep stats to play with! I want to know when the best time to purchase a blink dagger is on a batrider, because over the course of thousands of pub games batriders who get 15 minute blink daggers win 30% more often than 14 minute blink daggers. I'm talking really deep analyses across different levels of play. I suppose there would have to be some way to track whether a game should be counted among a player's averages, but shit, playoffs have a tiny number of games to glean meaningful stats from and especially in baseball, games are full of that kind of stuff. I want to watch the game and pay attention to exciting, outlying things. On and on I drone.
There are a lot of opportunities in Dota for stat gathering and improving the viewer experience, especially the new viewer. Many of them could happen via the UI.
-Larger health bars for heroes along the top of the screen, get rid of some unnecessary space where overlays currently display info. Overlays can still happen up there, but the top could be cleaned up and easier to follow heroes. -TRACK HEROES and let me know hoe my favorite heroes are doing. In addition to player storylines, the meta-game storyline is fascinating. What brings heroes in and out of popularity. Lemme know how often this hero wins, how often they win when paired with LS verus LD, even if I don't know the player I can get into the hero -Display the level of the character, probably underneath, in either green or red, depending on Radiant or Dire. Better yet, a color or texture that a team could associate with. Let the audience know which character belongs to which team and if they should fear the hero creeping through the jungle or feast upon them. The number could ghost (fade) when it came in contact with another player to cut down on clutter during battles.
That's it for now. My head hurst from moving out of my apartment. I hope this at least gets a discussion going. TL;DR, more datamining will set up some of the building blocks Mike suggests the scene needs.
I would love to see casters and tournaments do more of stats of players, only caster ever to look at anyone's stats is Khaldor. The rest can't remember who the player played against two days ago even if they cast the game, and no "We cast so many games, guys" - is not an excuse.
Also I'm confused by how people think that when something is happening, it automatically creates a storyline for itself and you should be interested in it. No, you need someone to tell you the story, we need interviews, little videos of the guy outside the game, rivals competing against each other something else than their own game etc. content to actually create some kind of connection with you and that storyline. WCS is the first platform so far to have the budget and capability to do this stuff outside of Korea at least.
I found it somewhat US-centric,but as per usual a good video.
Though I myself am a bit of a stats whore, in general the sporting culture I'm used to and familiar with in the UK and elsewhere is a lot less statistics-focused than American sports seem to be. Football being the prime example is usually discussed in subjective terms, or about aesthetic preferences and other intangibles rather than pure goals-per-game etc.
I see a lot of stats appearing more and more often, but they strike me as fluff for the broadcasters rather than the thing you discuss with your mates around the pub later.
The storyline thing is there too, but I never really found SC2 as being bad at conveying that. That said, it may be more to do with me always being on TL than the work of the broadcasters themselves.
It seems like storylines, sponsors, and this eSports community can't develop together. As storylines develop, the community gets their panties in a bunch and emails sponsors, which leads to players being fired and storylines getting eliminated. GG.
I think what esports actually lacks is acceptance from the main audience. Teach people that watching starcraft is basically the same as watching football, and it's nothing to be ashamed of. I've been asked more than once why was I watching SC2 by people with a look on their face that said: "what a nerd". I think the moment we change that, esports will reach a new tier.
Something I actually think SC2 broadcasts lack is some more replays of the most important fights of the game at the end. Sometimes you can't see everything and that would help. Also some statistics like winrate when cheesing or something on those lines would be awesome.
EPT
