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[G] Worker Transfers

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Dulcimer
Profile Joined February 2011
United States21 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 03:16:22
September 18 2011 22:21 GMT
#1
Please note that all time noted will be in-game-time, and does not account for gas mining (which is largely build specific). Also I accidentally titled this as [G] when I meant [D]

Introduction
+ Show Spoiler +
I have often seen questions referring to how one should transfer workers. Common arguments are:

#1: Transfer half of your workers
#2: Transfer all but 16 of your workers (so there is 2 workers per patch) and then send all new workers to your new base until you reach maximum saturation
#3: Leave maximum saturation on one base (24 workers) and only send new workers to the new expansion.

Most pros follow case #1 or #2 nearly exclusively and only follow #3 under rare circumstance.


Analysis
+ Show Spoiler +
One thing to consider is different maps have different mineral field placements and orientations. I will be basing my study on common mineral field placements (such that can be found on Xel Naga for example).

First off, lets define the amount of minerals one gains from various worker numbers on 1 base. One worker will bring in 40-45 minerals per minute depending on which patch it is mining. It takes 5 seconds (slightly more time actually, however, for simplicity’s sake, we will say 5 seconds) for it to bring in a batch of minerals (5 minerals). A base with 6 workers brings in about 260 minerals per minute, approximately 43 per worker. A base 16 workers will bring in 660 minerals every minute, 41 per worker. A base with 24 workers will bring about 800 minerals per minute, 33 minerals per worker. There are also some multibase numbers that I’ll talk about later.

One of the major things to consider about worker transfers is the amount of mining time lost during the transfer. In the long run of the game, the total mining time lost will be equal no matter if you follow 1, 2 or 3. If you send half of your workers (we’ll presume that is 12) at the same time, the mining loss time will be (T÷5) * 5 or just T * A (where T represents the time it takes to transfer and A represents the number of workers you are transferring).

This means that presuming a 25 second transfer time, if we send 8 workers, the lost mining time is worth about 200 minerals. We lose 8 minerals per second. On the other hand if we use method 3 and only send new workers, presuming we send 8 workers over the course of say 2 minutes, the total mining time lost is still worth 200 minerals, however, we aren’t losing those 200 minerals at once, we are losing those 200 minerals over the course of 2 minutes (or 1.6 minerals per second).

If we follow case #2 we will lose 200 minerals of mining time over the course of 25 seconds. However, once those probes have transferred, we are mining 960 minerals per minute (8 workers on the natural, 16 in the main) as opposed to 800 minerals per minute. It will take 1.25 minutes after the transfer to make up for the transfer.

If we build 24 workers and then follow case #1 we will lose 300 minerals of mining time over the course of 25 seconds (12 minerals per second). However, 2 bases operating with 12 workers each will receive an average of 1020 minerals per minute. It will take 1.36 minutes to make up for lost mining time (.11 minutes [6 seconds] longer recovery than case #2). However, once we have recovered, we receive a greater income (we receive 60 more minerals in case #1 than in case #2).


Conclusion
+ Show Spoiler +

So, what does all of this mean? There are only two types of transfer that you should make. Case #3, transferring no workers initially and rallying both bases to your natural (although I do recommend transferring workers eventually) and case #1 (transferring half of your workers).

The advantages to case #3 would be in a intense position or matchup in which you are not sure if you are safe. By not transferring your workers initially, you are making more money for 1.25 to 1.36 minutes until you lose money. That means 3 more zealots, 6 more pairs of lings or marines.

The advantages to case #1 is that you will make the most money in the long term. However, it will take 81 seconds to gain an advantage. After those 81 seconds you make 220 more minerals in the next minute than you would in case #3. EDIT: Make sure to see michaelhasanalias's argument, as he debates case #1 and suggests that case #2 is a more safe way to transfer workers.

Case #2 provides a 6 second short term advantage to #1 and a smaller long term advantage than #1 making it essentially useless. Since it still takes 1.25 minutes to recover, it isn’t good for very intense positions, and because it isn’t as good in the long run, there is no reason to use it in place of case #1. EDIT: Make sure to see michaelhasanalias's argument, as he debates case #1 and suggests that case #2 is a more safe way to transfer workers.

Late expansions
The later the expansion is, the less faults case #1 has. Since you don't gain an economic advantage from having more than 24 workers on a base due to exessive bouncing, and the more workers you have on a base increases how often worker bouncing occurs, the more workers you have, the less money you lose during the transfer under case #1. One of the things that this means, is if you are in a situation where you must follow case #3, you can transfer all but 24 workers without any economic damage to you.

Fast expansions
In fast expansions transferring is extremely strategic. There are different goals with transferring, and because of this I can't give you a true recommendation of which case to follow if you are fast expanding. Some things to remember though are:
a) Sometimes you transfer workers in an fe build to help defend early pressure
b) Earlier in the game minerals are more important, so the loss of transferring will hit you harder
c) There is less worker bouncing if there are less workers, so the incentive to transfer large amounts of workers is less than with normal or later expansions.

Vespene gas
ISTime pointed out some variations with gas that should be mentioned. Gas is highly build dependent and the way you need it changes the best worker transfer. Optimum reactions change if you expand without gas, expand with 1 gas at your main, expand with both gas, expand because you need more gas, etc, etc, etc.

Unfortunately I am unable to get as many hard numbers because it is so build dependent, however, here are some considerations with gas. If you take all of your gasses in your main and you also need to take the gasses at your natural while you transfer, it is better to transfer half of your workers + 6 so that you can instantaneously occupy your gas.

On the other hand, if you want to take a moderately timed third gas, then it is better to transfer half of your workers and then rally both bases to your natural for one production cycle, and then rally both bases back to their own mineral patches. You can then proceed to do that again if/when you need another gas.

The time that you need gas and expand greatly change how the optimum transfer for gas mining works as well.



Anyways, this isn't the *most* important issue, however I have seen different people say different things, I have seen different arguments for different worker transfers, however, I hadn’t seen any arguments with evidence to back it up. Hopefully this provides some insight, helps some people out, and provides you a slight macro edge.


Further thoughts
+ Show Spoiler +

This is just some more concepts and my own personal thoughts.

Which case I suggest
In my opinion #1 is the best way to transfer workers, there is no instance where you should be using #2, and #3 should be used rarely if you think you are going to die soon. EDIT: I may suggest #2 for now, I am going to run more tests later on, please see michaelhasanalias's posts.

[b]Worker bouncing/b]
If 2 workers are mining the same patch, there is a slight offset in mining times. As they both mine this offset grows (due to varying distances from the mineral patch to the base). A very over exaggerated example: Suppose it takes 4 seconds for a probe to collect minerals. The travel time from the patch to the base and back to the patch is 6 seconds. There is a 1 second offset that causes the probe mining time difference to become greater over time until both probes accidentally try to mine at the same time. Eventually one of the probes will mine that patch, and the other probe will go to a different mineral patch. This causes you to lose a small bit of mining time.

Notes
I have tested each case mentioned in this post in game to make sure the numbers align correctly. For me they have lined up, theoretically michaelhasanalias's numbers (which he does have more accurate constants than the ones I used [I must admit I may have over simplified several points]

Long term thoughts
There is also one other thing to consider. By transfering half of your workers instead of a smaller amount, then you will be able to mine out of your main base longer (meaning you will need to take a faster fourth, but you will be getting minerals from your main longer).

Zerg
The issue of transfering becomes much more complex with zerg. As a zerg player you will expand sooner (often times the expansion will be considered a fe of sorts) and you have the ability to make multiple workers at once (which will change the way you want to transfer a bit). I suggest reading the Fast expansion section of the conclusion which is the closest I come to a definitive answer for zerg.

I might do another post on zerg transferring and droning sometime if I get the chance and some thoughts of interest occur to me.

xdividebyzerox
Profile Joined August 2011
34 Posts
September 18 2011 22:27 GMT
#2
have you tested this ingame or is it just mathematical calculation
Dulcimer
Profile Joined February 2011
United States21 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-18 22:28:51
September 18 2011 22:28 GMT
#3
I have done tests in game and done the calculations for it.
EliteReplay
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Dominican Republic913 Posts
September 18 2011 22:30 GMT
#4
so i short term is better to transfer half of your workers, in case u dont sense any danger?
if play random i can't call any race imba?
Dulcimer
Profile Joined February 2011
United States21 Posts
September 18 2011 22:31 GMT
#5
No, in short term it is better to not transfer any workers, however, in long term (although better put, longer term as 1.36 minutes isn't very far off) it is better to transfer half of your workers
The advantages to case #1 is that you will make the most money in the long term. However, it will take 81 seconds to gain an advantage. After those 81 seconds you make 220 more minerals in the next case than you would in case #3.
ArsenalMark
Profile Joined August 2011
United Kingdom15 Posts
September 18 2011 22:34 GMT
#6
This is great, thanks<3!

One of the things that's been on my mind for awhile is how many workers I should transfer ^^
Nostrada
Profile Joined November 2010
Finland13 Posts
September 18 2011 22:37 GMT
#7
Are you sure? I was pretty sure #2 was optimal, but you rally new workers from main to new base only till there's 16 workers on minerals, then rally main back to own minerals.

1k master toss here.
Dulcimer
Profile Joined February 2011
United States21 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-18 22:40:36
September 18 2011 22:39 GMT
#8
On September 19 2011 07:37 Nostrada wrote:
Are you sure? I was pretty sure #2 was optimal, but you rally new workers from main to new base only till there's 16 workers on minerals, then rally main back to own minerals.

1k master toss here.


I was under that opinion also, however, because workers will eventually behave stupidly and bounce off a mineral patch due to mining inconsistencies, if you have equal probes on both bases instead of more on one and less on the other, you wind up making more money. (which is why its better to send half to nat and leave half in main).
PariahEU
Profile Joined August 2011
Austria3 Posts
September 18 2011 22:42 GMT
#9
i m a master zerg one eu server and normaly i use #2, because u get more money for more drones. but i never made the calculation
Wrathsc2
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2025 Posts
September 18 2011 22:44 GMT
#10
i always do #3, i hate not having money for even 2 seconds
A marine walks into a bar and asks, "Wheres the counter?"
Dulcimer
Profile Joined February 2011
United States21 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-18 22:46:22
September 18 2011 22:45 GMT
#11
Zerg becomes a complex issue due to the diference in droning mechanics compared to terran/toss worker production. While the analysis holds true, the conclusion may not depending on your play style. It's very heavily dependent on your play style with zerg (although at some point I may do some droning calculations also).

Also @ radiantshadow92, I recommend #1. #3 will leave you with a large macro disadvantage in longer term games.
Nostrada
Profile Joined November 2010
Finland13 Posts
September 18 2011 22:47 GMT
#12
This just doesn't make any sense to me. You lose more mining time earlier if you send half of your workers right away and don't gain anything compared to #2. 16 workers still mine at the optimal rate.
elliminist
Profile Joined November 2010
Japan121 Posts
September 18 2011 22:48 GMT
#13
#1 should be optimal. The reduced rally times after transfer make it so that the mining gets achieved earlier. However estimating a correct saturation point and siphoning off oversaturation of workers to transfer to the next further base should prove to be the flaw in application of this method.

That being said #2 is the better ingame application of worker transfer, because Oversaturation is not optimal; Some builds cut workers (better for this build) at certain points in the game and this style of rally better prepares you for it. Also, the natural's workers should be closer to the next base's minerals because you've been rallying them out (and oversaturating that line).

Also, maximum saturation has never been 24 workers. It's always been a number between 16-24 depending on the number of long and middle patches in that particular mineral field. I understand though that your testing cannot show this considering the randomness of crappy mineral patch designing by Blizzard; however if you can ideally identify perfect diminishing saturation levels (i.e. how many workers can fully saturate a mineral line, over the efficient mining number of 16, and transfer the rest) then you shouldn't be losing mining whenever you transfer (+ double rally to next mineral line).

Is my understanding wrong?
Do you think you're really entitled to anything in this world?
kiero
Profile Joined May 2007
Canada136 Posts
September 18 2011 22:51 GMT
#14
You noted that as a base fills up with works, their individual efficiencies decrease. When you transfer all at once, you bump up each worker's efficiency, which you did not take into account. You need some experimental data if you're going to make any conclusions from this.
Banchan
Profile Joined May 2011
United States179 Posts
September 18 2011 22:52 GMT
#15
I used to do #2 until I saw HuK do #1 consistently on stream
Dulcimer
Profile Joined February 2011
United States21 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-18 22:55:37
September 18 2011 22:53 GMT
#16
On September 19 2011 07:47 Nostrada wrote:
This just doesn't make any sense to me. You lose more mining time earlier if you send half of your workers right away and don't gain anything compared to #2. 16 workers still mine at the optimal rate.


This is explained in my conclusion. You make 60 workers more in case 1 than case 2.

In theory you wouldn't make any more money since both bases have (<=16) workers. In practice though, workers don't mine perfectly. Eventually an inconsistancy occurs which causes a worker to 'bounce' to a different mineral patch (due to another probe mining). The number of bounces that occur will change depending on how many workers are operating per patch.

If there are 8 workers and each one is mining one patch, there will be no bouncing. If there are 12 workers there will be a *small* amount of bouncing. If there are 16 workers, there is still a relatively small amount of bouncing, but a larger amount than if there was 12 workers. As it turns out, the bouncing in a base with 16 workers is great enough to make it so if you have 2 bases, 16 workers in one and 8 in the other, you will make less money than if you put 12 workers at both bases.


On September 19 2011 07:51 kiero wrote:
You noted that as a base fills up with works, their individual efficiencies decrease. When you transfer all at once, you bump up each worker's efficiency, which you did not take into account. You need some experimental data if you're going to make any conclusions from this.


I did take that into account (as you will note I state that transferring half of your workers is more efficient than transferring less workers [and I give numbers too]. I will add in a section explaining this a little bit more though and giving a couple more numbers.
Whiplash
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States2929 Posts
September 18 2011 22:54 GMT
#17
I was actually wondering about this today, it looks like case #1 is the best way to go, thanks for the information.
Cinematographer / Steadicam Operator. Former Starcraft commentator/player
Alejandrisha
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States6565 Posts
September 18 2011 22:56 GMT
#18
It all depends on how many workers you have at your main when your expo done and a bunch of other factors. It is good practice to maintain sufficient saturation without wasting probes so rallying to the next base after 16 workers is good. But, if you don't take a 3rd for a while, this will end up having over saturation at the nat which means you will have to arbitrarily check the saturation there and divide workers later, or stop production of workers once both ahave 16 on mins and you aren't planning on expanding.

On the other hand, if you have low worker count when the expansion finishes, like an ffe or hatch first, it obviously doesn't make sense to have diminishing returns on workers in your main while you can add workers to the nat without diminishing returns so simply sending half would be fine. This, however, could lead to random saturation at both and when you are maynarding to your 3rd, you will have to arbitrarily check the saturations of the lines at the main and natural and then transfer accordingly instead of taking all of the excess at your nat and simply sending them over.
get rich or die mining
TL+ Member
Peleus
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia420 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-18 23:02:27
September 18 2011 22:57 GMT
#19
I haven't had time to double check your calculations, I will when I get home but I think you'll find that number #2 is optimal.

At the end of it all, drones 0-16 earn 40 mins / min, drones 17 - 24 earn 20 mins / min due to saturation issues. You need a combination of earning the optimal amount of minerals per worker as soon as possible. If you transfer workers, you loose some efficiency in the transfer time, so you shouldn't transfer unless there is a benefit.

Let's say we have 24 drones mining at a base, it's worth transferring 8 as your changing 8 drones @ 20/min to 8 drones @ 40/min. If move half your drones you're simply changing the extra 4 from 40/min to 40/min with lost time due to transfer.

Any future drones rallied to your natural (or base you transferred to) will still suffer a loss in transfer time, which will be equal to the loss suffered in originally transferring those extra 4 drones in #1 true, however you've had drones mining for a longer time via method #2, so you have more minerals sooner than you would with option #1, which is the primary goal of transfer.

Therefore, option #2 is optimal.
Dulcimer
Profile Joined February 2011
United States21 Posts
September 18 2011 23:08 GMT
#20
I have updated with further thoughts, this should explain why case #1 is optimal in nearly all cases (there may be an exception if you expand really late [which I will check for]).
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