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I wasn't able to play or read about Starcraft for about 3 months. When I came back I was constantly was running into problems against Zerg. If a baneling bust didn’t kill me the inevitable mutalisk harass would occupy me and slow me down. Usually I tried to go bio, but my micro is not the best and too often banelings would cause too much havoc. Now, with the change to infestors, FG has made marine based builds something of an extinct build. So that really leaves two options, at least for me: air or mech.
Terran air is not the best. Battlecruisers are very tech heavy, slow, and are easily handled by corruptors. Sure, you can pair them with Vikings to handle the corruptors, but the Zerg player will simply run past your Battlecruisers and kill off your SCVs, supply depots, and production buildings before you can reach them with the cruisers. Banshees are weak, but require the Zerg to be concerned with the harassment potential and to build more Overseerers than they might like. But banshee won’t kill large roach builds quickly and Infestors can negate the cloak with fungal growth. Now obviously as a Terran you wouldn’t just mass one of these units but pair it with some infantry, probably marines since your gas will be placed into the air units.
So, since air is difficult to base a build around I decided to try mech. I was familiar with the Thor/Marine composition and had tried this to some success, especially since it really negates Mutalisks. But I ran into a problem with mass roaches. The Thors deal quite a lot of damage, but their attack is slow, as is their movement speed, and by the time I would kill the roach army and walk to the Zerg base they had resupplied. I decided that to combat the Zerg mobility I needed fast units, which leaves either air or hellions.
I had been playing around with the blueflame hellion play in Terran vs. Terran and decided to try it against Zerg. I had seen some streams where the Terrans used the hellions early on to try and harass the Zerg but them gave them up for the usual tank/barracks play. And since Terran is basically a mix between Zerg and Protoss play style you need to be able to strike with cheap units and have the ability to form a death ball.
Hellions are slowly becoming my favorite Terran unit. They are so fast and really give you map control, without needing to produce tanks. By map control I do not mean containing the Zerg, I mean information. The less you need to scan the more minerals you have. A mule gives you almost 3 Hellions; with 3 hellions you can scout almost anything, especially where the Zerg has expanded. Or save the scans for destroying Creep Tumors. They need to be used extensively.
The build is very similar to a few out there:
+ Show Spoiler +9/10 Supply Depot
11/11 Barracks (Build two Marines)
12/19 Refinery
14/19 Supply Depot (This doesn’t have to be here but I like to block off against zerg)
17/27 Orbital Command
(You could squeeze out another Marine here if needed, or a bunker)
~17/27 Factory
18/27 Refinery
19/27 Techlab the barracks, once the Factor is done switch it out. Start infernal pre ignitor and a hellion, build at least 4.
Right around this point minerals start adding up. What do you think I should be building here? I start pumping some Marines since I am saving up gas at this point. Seems like you COULD expand but against an aggressive Zerg I lack the units to defend on open maps. As I refine the build I think here is a better time to throw down another barracks in preparation of going mauraders.
25/35 Supply Depot
27/35 Factory and techlab on the barracks, switch the factory onto the techlab
30/35 Armory
33/35 Supply Depot
35/43 Command Center and Thor (Usually I put some pressure on the Zerg with the hellion at the same time I expand
41/43 Supply Depot and Barracks. Once the Depot is done another Thor and Tech lab both the Barracks (or the 3, you should have enough gas to get 3 tech labs and a thor)
At around this time I usually have enough income to start pumping out Hellions and Mauraders at will, with Thors when I have enough Gas. In the replay attached you will see that I switch a factory to a reactor. I have found that around 4-5 Barracks and 4-5 factories, for the most part with techlabs are enough. A starport with reactor helps immensely for Medivacs around 50 supply.
Problems:
+ Show Spoiler +Some problems with this build are the need to constantly be building Supply Depots. Thors take 6 supply and both marauders and hellions take two, so in one cycle of production you need 2-3 Depots, but this is always a problem in any build. Early, early roach rush can kill me, but early aggression by a Zerg does not usually cause me problems. Weirdly, with the Spanishiwa type Zerg becoming more popular I am running into more and more turtling Zergs. Allowing the Zerg to expand at will really isn’t a problem because of the potential of hellions. These types of Zergs have to play like a Terran, slow and defensive, which favors the Terran. But since I generally leave out Tanks a heavy turtle Zerg can be hard to break late game.
Broodlords have caused a few problems, but these should be easily scouted and with the infrastructure to switch to Vikings or Ghosts they don’t cause too much trouble.
If they come in with Zerglings the few marines are more than enough, with an SCV repairing the wall, to handle a 10 pool. If they Baneling bust I already have BF hellions so I can usually handle that well. Mutalisks are a non factor. Infestors cause some problems (really when don’t they). I have tried mixing in ghosts for EMP in this build, you already have a ton of Barracks with techlabs, but it is nearly impossible to build Thors/Ghosts/Medivacs on 2 bases.
This is a build where marines generally do not exist. The combination of the Thor/Hellion makes marines almost useless. The Thors are better at handling Mutalisks and the hellions are much better at handling Zerglings and Banelings.
So far I haven’t met a Zerg that played with strong Hyrdalisk play, so I am not sure about how this would fair against them. I can’t imagine it would be different.
I understand this build is basically a melding of a few and nothing radical, but I am writing this to contend that the common feeling about the necessity of Marines in TvZ is wrong. Taking out Marines almost makes banelings a waste ( the Zerg would have to build a ton of these to destroy all the armored units). I have actually played against a few Zerg going heavy against banelings and the hellions take most of the damage leaving the marauders and Thors untouched.
I am attaching a replay of the first time I tried this out. As you will see it is unrefined in this replay, but the game is long and basically has every unit combination so you can see. I understand I make a lot of mistakes in this game (upgrades anyone?) but that’s what happens when you are thinking about how to do a build order. I have a few more where the build is refined and when I have some more time will parse out the best ones. Problems? Thoughts?
First Attempt
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Hey mate. Low/mid masters zerg here with a few comments.
First off, loving the new thinking instead of the "omg infestor buff zerg now unbeatable QQ" that I personally meet on the ladder 
I see a number of problems with your build.
1. Mass roach with upgrades will still chew you up. Sure, the thors counter roaches cost for cost (especially with some SCV's repairing) but blueflame hellions do basically nothing against a heavy roach centered build and die fast to roaches, and once the hellions are gone, a few speedbanes can roll in and utterly decimate any repairing SCV's, resulting in the thors to be targetfired down in speedly manner.
This is my own experience when playing against a heavy mech player. I could of course be wrong.
2. A completely marine-less build will actually get stomped by mass mutalisks with some roach support. Magicboxed mutalisks paired with roaches will leave one of the two unharmed by the thors - if they aim upwards, the roaches will wear them down, if they aim downwards the mutalisk splash will annihilate any repairing SCV's combined with the slow but steady damage from the roaches.
Again, these are just my experiences. I am not saying these are problems without solution, but I would not say that bfh + thor is the new magic winner combo and having no marines to stim-chase down stray mutalisks will mean you need to invest that much more into missile turrets to avoid mutas simply sniping them down and magicboxing any defensive thors.
That being said, though, blue flame hellions are an absolute nightmare for zergs to deal with since theres no way to wall off expansions.
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Well if you have problems against Mutalisks *and* banelingbusts you will have even more problems against it without marines and siege tanks... Also I think Marauders are useless in TvZ except when the enemy has roaches or ultralisks or you want to protect marines (which you don`t have) from banelings. So tbh I am not really a fan of your build, however I think hellions and marauders can work well before the zerg has the spire so maybe a one base allin?
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Basically what Thraundil said. With how fast Zerg can tech switch, this composition would be horrible at dealing with that. A switch to mass Muta will destroy you since 2/3 of your units are useless against them and without Marines nothing stops him from magic boxing his Mutas over your Thors.
Hellion/Marauder is a powerful opening but you need to do damage with it and then transition into standard Marine play. MKP vs Sen at GSL World I believe has this opening kill Sen, MVP vs July game 1 at GSL World MVP tries a Hellion/Marauder opening, does no damage, and just gets rolled by Mutalisks.
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Actually Marauders are pretty good in TvZ against Roaches, Infestors, and Ultras. And those 3 units along with broodlords are the usual counter to Thor/Hellion.
I suppose you can do something cut down on the number of hellions and instead replace some of their number with 1 Rax of marauders. It'll slow down your teching though. That extra 50 gas/minute makes it hard to get upgrades.
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These are good points. The no stim-marines to chase down Mutalisks is a concern. I actually have a replay where a Zerg controls his Mutalisks very well to constantly harass me, which lead me to leave some Thors behind to defend. I lost this match up and I can try and find the replay but I am not sure I actually saved it.
Mass roaches I have not had problems, that’s actually why I started using Marauders over Marines. I had started using the Thor/Marine/Hellion but ran into really big trouble with upgraded roaches. Marauders deal much better with roaches than marines, and with Thor support it generally cleans up roaches. And you’re right Ultralisks die fairly easily to this mix. Though I think it is rare to see Hive tech.
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My standard TvZ which has probably an 80%+ win rate at high diamond only requires 5 marines. From there it involves heavy factory and some starport.
Although I will say that I wouldn't be stubborn and refuse to make marines. They're good in most situations. Even with my build if I scout mass Infestor (like 10-12) I simply must switch to tank/rine. There is simply no better way of dealing with Infestor/Ling.
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Marines are too good against ling/mutas not to have, especially early game.
Massing them is another matter, but avoiding Marines completely puts a big gap in your army, especially against Magic Box Mutas.
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I've normally try to go 2 Port Banshee harrass into Thor/BF-Hellion, its been working pretty good for me... I amost want to try 1 port Banshee into the same but I dont know if I'll have enough when harrassing in the early game to slow the zerg
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You can go marine-less by going mech. Thors handle mutalisks pretty well in groups of 3 or 4. You'll still have 1 rax pumping marines for support as well. And turrets of course.
But infestors aren't the end of marines. Smart marine positioning with tanks makes it hard for the infestors to get off any good FGs. A ghost build transition is great at holding off both Infestors with EMP and Broodlords with Snipe.
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Well I like the idea of no marines since infestors destroy marines.
I play zerg and when a terran goes marine heavy I view it as a free win because I've been using the "new" infestor style for a long time and I have no trouble with any marine heavy composition.
But thor hellion is much harder to deal with if you didn't notice it fast enough.
If your army is muta ling you're dead.
But if you play that infestor style you can just get NP and switch to roaches, suddenly the hellion thor army is easy to beat, the roaches get infront so that the thors can't get to the infestors, the helions are pretty much just a waste of minerals and when you NP 5-6 thors it's not even funny how much stuff you have left after the terran has lost everything.
Before someone says I'm theorycrafting, I'm not I've tried all of these compositions and these were the results I got at the time.
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In my experience magic box mutas counter heavy thor play if they aren't supported by a significant number of marines. Also I'm not sure of the timing of your various pushes, but if you are planning on taking a good while to push with thors you run the risk of the Zerg having hidden significant number of Broodlords (I have done exactly that to good effect on Terrans) which can ruin your day if you haven't left enough supply for viking support.
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Terran air is not the best.
![[image loading]](http://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/thumbs/146-what-the-fuck-am-i-reading.jpg)
Maybe if we start adding ghosts to screw those infestors?
User was warned for this post
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Watch Lzgamer's stream. He does a very similar build, but incorporates ghosts for snipe and emping infestors. He is still refining it and as far as i know has barely used it so i could have a lot of potential. He typically gets mainly thors and depending on the zergs reaction gets other units.
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Ghosts are seriously underused in TvZ. They infuse your bio army with an element of surprise, be it through sniping key zerg units, nuking or emp on clumped infestors.
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In my experience (mid diamond, always heavy mech in TvZ), in order to handle mass mutas, you need to build turrets as you are pushing and have a strong focus on mech armour upgrades. Most zerg players will either magic box the thors and ignore the turrets which are dealing a lot of damage, or see the turrets and run. It slows the pushes down a lot, but I usually bring 3 or 4 scvs with my main pushes and leapfrog turrets forward in the same manner as tanks. I also get the building armour upgrade 99% of the time, it makes a huge difference against mutas as well as lings.
Again, I'm not in masters so maybe this doesn't work at the higher levels, but I never see the pros do much beside marine tank and I've been having a lot of success with this.
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On April 22 2011 05:04 DrivenBatty wrote:
In my experience (mid diamond, always heavy mech in TvZ), in order to handle mass mutas, you need to build turrets as you are pushing and have a strong focus on mech armour upgrades. Most zerg players will either magic box the thors and ignore the turrets which are dealing a lot of damage, or see the turrets and run. It slows the pushes down a lot, but I usually bring 3 or 4 scvs with my main pushes and leapfrog turrets forward in the same manner as tanks. I also get the building armour upgrade 99% of the time, it makes a huge difference against mutas as well as lings.
Again, I'm not in masters so maybe this doesn't work at the higher levels, but I never see the pros do much beside marine tank and I've been having a lot of success with this.
Marine/Tank is used because before Hive Tech Marine just straight up beats everything in the Zerg army except Banelings and Infestors. So you get Tanks to counter both those things.
The thing I don't understand about the OP's concept is why would you actively seek a way to phase out Marines yourself? Marines are the best unit in the Terran arsenal. They're versatile, extremely cheap, mobile, expendable, and do huge DPS. You force other races to build AoE to counter your Marines, not counter them yourself.
Fungal has not made Marines an "extinct" build. Fungal does the same amount of damage as before, just faster now. You just need proper army control. If Banelings and Infestors didn't exist, I would make nothing else but Marines off of 30 Rax and win most of my games. They do exist though so unfortunately I do have to make a few Tanks to shell them.
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On April 22 2011 04:09 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Actually Marauders are pretty good in TvZ against Roaches, Infestors, and Ultras. And those 3 units along with broodlords are the usual counter to Thor/Hellion.
I suppose you can do something cut down on the number of hellions and instead replace some of their number with 1 Rax of marauders. It'll slow down your teching though. That extra 50 gas/minute makes it hard to get upgrades.
I use marauders with hellions (duh) as an effective combo against anything zerg before mutas. Hell, with good control they're good against everything zerg has. If not units, you can box 6 off, stim and snipe hatcheries, spools, spires, roach dens, the dreaded nest, etc.
Marine/Tank is used because before Hive Tech Marine just straight up beats everything in the Zerg army except Banelings and Infestors. So you get Tanks to counter both those things.
The thing I don't understand about the OP's concept is why would you actively seek a way to phase out Marines yourself? Marines are the best unit in the Terran arsenal. They're versatile, extremely cheap, mobile, expendable, and do huge DPS. You force other races to build AoE to counter your Marines, not counter them yourself.
Fungal has not made Marines an "extinct" build. Fungal does the same amount of damage as before, just faster now. You just need proper army control. If Banelings and Infestors didn't exist, I would make nothing else but Marines off of 30 Rax and win most of my games. They do exist though so unfortunately I do have to make a few Tanks to shell them.
100% right in my mind. Beyond being forced out of marines by be it infestor or roach or baneling, you should never get rid of them actively.
Also, maybe it's just me, but when I'm faced with 2 base T vs 3 base Z going infestor, I have a transition I ALWAYS do and do rather well with. You gotta figure, infestors are the gas sink IF you keep their numbers down through snipes in battle by boxing and bouncing, or plain suicides at them. So gas is mostly gone, if they're going roach as well, off 2-3 base, there's no threat of mutas if you keep tabs on their numbers. Therefor, you DO go mass maras. I personally switch once I see infestor/roach with upgrades to mara/tank/medic/hellions. The obvious mineral sink for run bys and quick delays and engagements is going to be the zergling. You HAVE to have some zergling defense or their numbers alone make the marauders and tanks almost worthless through flanks with FG.
Just... It could definitly work. But you're going uphill in car lets say. Why start out in 3rd gear?
Quick edit -- it may seem counter intuitive, but a good 'counter' for infestors in battles is drop play. Keep them IN BASE as you press with small/medium drop strike forces. The only counter to upgraded terran drops that isn't a major army unit at that stage (ie roach hydra bling muta bl etc) is going to be an infestor in the base until the zerglings come in. FG fucks up drops, but it keeps a few infestors away at bay. And if you dual prong, you'll find many people hard pressed to multitask two fronts and macro. Even at mid masters or whatever I'm at, I almost get giggly seeing them pull all drones and just stop them as you push the front.
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Reactor hellion FE => marine tank
If you scout a spire => marine Thor
if you scout an infestation pit => Thor hellion
if you scout neither => marine mauraders medivac and secure 3rd (ie turtle)
no matter the case, build up 6-7 tanks and push out while building up a pack of 6-7 Vikings at home base to counter the "surprise" broodlords.
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just wondering, have you ever tried throwing ravens in?
-air fares much better since PDD blocks everything that can hit air
-PDD helps protect your thors, or use HSM to keep mutas at bay (where your thors can still massacre them but they can't engage)
-also negates your worry about hydralisk play, although not as effective due to the hydras high rof.
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EPT
