EPTIn short, I think a hellion Thor build is viable, but only if you get several raxes set up during the early phases of the game to be ready to slam out mara's to counter the roach and/or ultra units that will certainly be coming. If the zerg sticks with huge ling/bling balls vs masses of blue flames, I would have to say he just isnt very good.
TvZ No Marines - Page 2
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Iron_
United States389 Posts
In short, I think a hellion Thor build is viable, but only if you get several raxes set up during the early phases of the game to be ready to slam out mara's to counter the roach and/or ultra units that will certainly be coming. If the zerg sticks with huge ling/bling balls vs masses of blue flames, I would have to say he just isnt very good. | ||
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HelloThere
United States14 Posts
When going mass mech against zerg, it is pretty much required that you make each expo after your natural a PF and surround it with turrets. Mech is slow and immobile and static defense will help your expo survive until you can get there to save it. It sounds like you're skipping tanks altogether which, in my opinion, is a bad idea. Tanks handle the roaches while the thors handle the mutas. The hellions are a mineral sink that serves 2 purposes: to tank the damage from the roaches while the tanks dish it out and roast up mass zerglings which give tank/thor balls trouble. Brood lords used to give me trouble until I had an incredible revelation. The minute I drop my third 3rd base, I build 2 ports and reactor them immediately. This 300 gas investment will not limit your army but will provide you a nearly instant viking ball that will counter BLs. Just unsiege your tanks, have the thors attack the BLs and have the hellions roast up the broodlings to minimize the damage taken. Last bit of advice, if you scout ultras instead of BLs, make sure to build buildings in front of your tanks. Ultra/roach is very difficult to deal with. Mass muta can be dealt with by mass thor especially if you engage near your turrets (make sure you upgrade buildings at the EBay!) | ||
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Tandinel
66 Posts
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
Anyways, if you are opting for some sort of mech play then your going to be vulnerable to broodlord and roaches. Infestor parasite will also not be that big of a surprise too. If you are considering thor hellion then marauder or tanks would be the logical choice to go get the roaches. Even still, infestor fungal is still pretty darn good against hellion and marauders. Which is why tanks are usually the preferred choice. That will make thor hellion tanks which is pretty much fungal and baneling proof if you are too worry about fungal or baneling. | ||
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Grend
1600 Posts
On April 22 2011 05:08 Curu wrote: Marine/Tank is used because before Hive Tech Marine just straight up beats everything in the Zerg army except Banelings and Infestors. So you get Tanks to counter both those things. The thing I don't understand about the OP's concept is why would you actively seek a way to phase out Marines yourself? Marines are the best unit in the Terran arsenal. They're versatile, extremely cheap, mobile, expendable, and do huge DPS. You force other races to build AoE to counter your Marines, not counter them yourself. Fungal has not made Marines an "extinct" build. Fungal does the same amount of damage as before, just faster now. You just need proper army control. If Banelings and Infestors didn't exist, I would make nothing else but Marines off of 30 Rax and win most of my games. They do exist though so unfortunately I do have to make a few Tanks to shell them. I hope you dont seriously think its unfortunate that blings and infestors exist? This game would be pretty boring if all T ever did was spam marines  | ||
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Curu
Canada2817 Posts
On April 22 2011 06:12 Grend wrote: I hope you dont seriously think its unfortunate that blings and infestors exist? This game would be pretty boring if all T ever did was spam marines Unfortunate from the point-of-view of my easy-win hungry aspirations . I want my 1A instant wins so I can feel like a Protoss player.../zing | ||
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
I still like marine/tank because there arent really any major weaknesses in the build. With good control I can split marines which stops both Zergs AoE, I can take out expos with ease, I can stop muta harass way easier, I can take my expos easier and dictate the flow of the game more. Its just all around the best way to go vs Z still in the current map pool/balance changes. | ||
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Curu
Canada2817 Posts
On April 22 2011 06:19 Yamulo wrote: I am having a couple issues with this, first off marines are not obsolete by any means in tvz (boxer vs sen? or Rainbow vs sheth) also, how are banshees weak? They 2 shot workers, i think like 24 dmg a peice which is REALLY good dps, also with the new battle cruiser speed upgrade that blizzard made a troll post about and called it ridiculous speed or something like that. But all that aside, if you really want to make mech work you really need to see his hive timing (so you can add on when the Broodlords will arive), so if you scan a hive morphing you atleast have time to make the starports or build a reactor fast. Air doesn't work because the two Terran air units either only attack ground or only attack air, whereas the Zerg air unit does both (not to mention Mutalisks beat Vikings anyways). | ||
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noriae
United States6 Posts
On April 22 2011 06:11 SheaR619 wrote: Mind me ask why your build order so unorthodox? 9 supply, 11 rax and 17 orbital? That really unorthodox from the standard 10 supply, 11 rax and 15 orbital. Anyways, if you are opting for some sort of mech play then your going to be vulnerable to broodlord and roaches. Infestor parasite will also not be that big of a surprise too. If you are considering thor hellion then marauder or tanks would be the logical choice to go get the roaches. Even still, infestor fungal is still pretty darn good against hellion and marauders. Which is why tanks are usually the preferred choice. That will make thor hellion tanks which is pretty much fungal and baneling proof if you are too worry about fungal or baneling. I have no theory about why I do the 9 supply. I think this grew out of an overreaction to 8 pools and trying to block a scout. And I used to get supply blocked making a depot at 10. I would say Broodlords are no doubt the obvious counter to this build. But of course if you see a Hive you should be prepared for either Broodlords or Ultras (Though the latter are extremely weak for this build). It takes a long time to get Broodlords and any strange tech pattern by the Zerg should be easily spotted. This build grew out of countering mass Roaches, Banelings, Zerglings, and Mutalisks. Roaches simply melt with Marauders and Thors. On April 22 2011 06:19 Yamulo wrote: I am having a couple issues with this, first off marines are not obsolete by any means in tvz (boxer vs sen? or Rainbow vs sheth) also, how are banshees weak? They 2 shot workers, i think like 24 dmg a peice which is REALLY good dps, also with the new battle cruiser speed upgrade that blizzard made a troll post about and called it ridiculous speed or something like that. But all that aside, if you really want to make mech work you really need to see his hive timing (so you can add on when the Broodlords will arive), so if you scan a hive morphing you atleast have time to make the starports or build a reactor fast. Mid game I always build Starports for medivacs, so the infrastructure is there to switch to Viking. Now, this actually broaches on a slight problem with this build: drops. In this response I clear up that after this opening I build starports for medivacs. Marines are way better for drops than Marauders simply because of the rate of fire. However, what are you going for with a drop? I would contend that it is usually to kill workers, which Hellions are much better at than Marines. If it is buildings your after then obviously hellions are terrible. On April 22 2011 05:57 HelloThere wrote: When going mass mech against zerg, it is pretty much required that you make each expo after your natural a PF and surround it with turrets. Mech is slow and immobile and static defense will help your expo survive until you can get there to save it. It sounds like you're skipping tanks altogether which, in my opinion, is a bad idea. Tanks handle the roaches while the thors handle the mutas. The hellions are a mineral sink that serves 2 purposes: to tank the damage from the roaches while the tanks dish it out and roast up mass zerglings which give tank/thor balls trouble. At first when I was beginning to play around with this build I totally avoided tanks and all infantry, which was a GIANT mistake. Mass roaches rolled over me because, as numerous people have pointed out, Hellions do NOTHING to roaches. The reason I avoided tanks is I think they are too slow to move. Now, I am sure many people would point to the Thor as being slow, which it is, but the Thor doesn’t have to siege up. This is why I incorporated marauders, to deal with the armored units of the Zerg. I have never had trouble with mass Zerglings simply because Hellions destroy them. On April 22 2011 05:57 Iron_ wrote: In short, I think a hellion Thor build is viable, but only if you get several raxes set up during the early phases of the game to be ready to slam out mara's to counter the roach and/or ultra units that will certainly be coming. If the zerg sticks with huge ling/bling balls vs masses of blue flames, I would have to say he just isnt very good. Perhaps this is my fault, but I thought it was clear that this is more of a Thor/Hellion/Marauder build. In the long term game plan I always put out a starport with reactor for medivacs. Medivacs can serve 2 purposes. The first, obviously is healing the marauders. The second is to cart around thors. I learned that this greatly increases the Thor’s viability as it makes up for their utter lack of mobility. | ||
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