On July 18 2009 08:19 Sociopathic wrote: i really think most of you are just really biased...
hell i play both wc3 and sc, but its pretty obvious that starcraft 2 is very micro orientated (cause macro is very easy) and warcraft 3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players.
Im not saying that wc3 players will absolutly dominate, once the sc players adept to sc2 there will be alot of starcraft players on the top, but the actual starcraft playstyle isnot similar to the sc2 playstyle.
What is with this belief that progamers don't have any micro capabilities whatsoever? Has anyone seen Flash's marine control... Anyone?
im not saying the starcraft pros have bad micro... that would be pretty stupid... but look at it like this:
both starcraft and warcraft players are only human being they only have 24 hours a day to do things like sleeping eating training etc. assuming nada isnot a superhero who can do anything:
warcraft players pretty much only train microing (cause macro is hilariously easy in wc3 ( and it will be so in sc2 to) starcraft players have to train a good chunk of macro too, cause it is just a part of sc.
Warcraft players are just abit more trained in micro than starcraft players are (cause of the time), im not saying starcraft players are bad or anything.
Isn't there a pretty big gap in the micro style though? Like microing a battle with 40hp units is a lot different from a battle with 300hp units.
This. Running for like 2-3 seconds like 1 group of units into enemy's army in WC3 means you will lose 1-2 units. Try making such mistake and running 12 goons into 200/200 sieged T army and getting anything out after 2 seconds.
Yea.And what about hold lurker.If u dosnt pay attention for like 1 second ur whole army is dead. Cant compare this to WC3,its a fact.
On July 18 2009 08:19 Sociopathic wrote: i really think most of you are just really biased...
hell i play both wc3 and sc, but its pretty obvious that starcraft 2 is very micro orientated (cause macro is very easy) and warcraft 3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players.
Im not saying that wc3 players will absolutly dominate, once the sc players adept to sc2 there will be alot of starcraft players on the top, but the actual starcraft playstyle isnot similar to the sc2 playstyle.
What is with this belief that progamers don't have any micro capabilities whatsoever? Has anyone seen Flash's marine control... Anyone?
im not saying the starcraft pros have bad micro... that would be pretty stupid... but look at it like this:
both starcraft and warcraft players are only human being they only have 24 hours a day to do things like sleeping eating training etc. assuming nada isnot a superhero who can do anything:
warcraft players pretty much only train microing (cause macro is hilariously easy in wc3 ( and it will be so in sc2 to) starcraft players have to train a good chunk of macro too, cause it is just a part of sc.
Warcraft players are just abit more trained in micro than starcraft players are (cause of the time), im not saying starcraft players are bad or anything.
Isn't there a pretty big gap in the micro style though? Like microing a battle with 40hp units is a lot different from a battle with 300hp units.
This. Running for like 2-3 seconds like 1 group of units into enemy's army in WC3 means you will lose 1-2 units. Try making such mistake and running 12 goons into 200/200 sieged T army and getting anything out after 2 seconds.
I'm a WC3 player not a SC player (just like watching sc pro scene though too) and you're completely right that the micro types of the way battles are fought are different from SC compared to WC3, but SC2 is NOT SC. Aside from early game of like zealots vs zerglings or marines or early game combos from SC we probably wont see battles fought the same way because of so many new units. There won't be a TON of micro based similarities in army composition probably.
On July 18 2009 08:19 Sociopathic wrote: i really think most of you are just really biased...
hell i play both wc3 and sc, but its pretty obvious that starcraft 2 is very micro orientated (cause macro is very easy) and warcraft 3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players.
Im not saying that wc3 players will absolutly dominate, once the sc players adept to sc2 there will be alot of starcraft players on the top, but the actual starcraft playstyle isnot similar to the sc2 playstyle.
What is with this belief that progamers don't have any micro capabilities whatsoever? Has anyone seen Flash's marine control... Anyone?
im not saying the starcraft pros have bad micro... that would be pretty stupid... but look at it like this:
both starcraft and warcraft players are only human being they only have 24 hours a day to do things like sleeping eating training etc. assuming nada isnot a superhero who can do anything:
warcraft players pretty much only train microing (cause macro is hilariously easy in wc3 ( and it will be so in sc2 to) starcraft players have to train a good chunk of macro too, cause it is just a part of sc.
Warcraft players are just abit more trained in micro than starcraft players are (cause of the time), im not saying starcraft players are bad or anything.
Isn't there a pretty big gap in the micro style though? Like microing a battle with 40hp units is a lot different from a battle with 300hp units.
it of course is pretty different... it isnot exactly like wc3 neither its exactly like sc (cause abilities are becoming more important and easier to use (cause of intelligent spellcasting)) but my argument that wc3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players still stands.
On July 18 2009 08:19 Sociopathic wrote: i really think most of you are just really biased...
hell i play both wc3 and sc, but its pretty obvious that starcraft 2 is very micro orientated (cause macro is very easy) and warcraft 3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players.
Im not saying that wc3 players will absolutly dominate, once the sc players adept to sc2 there will be alot of starcraft players on the top, but the actual starcraft playstyle isnot similar to the sc2 playstyle.
What is with this belief that progamers don't have any micro capabilities whatsoever? Has anyone seen Flash's marine control... Anyone?
im not saying the starcraft pros have bad micro... that would be pretty stupid... but look at it like this:
both starcraft and warcraft players are only human being they only have 24 hours a day to do things like sleeping eating training etc. assuming nada isnot a superhero who can do anything:
warcraft players pretty much only train microing (cause macro is hilariously easy in wc3 ( and it will be so in sc2 to) starcraft players have to train a good chunk of macro too, cause it is just a part of sc.
Warcraft players are just abit more trained in micro than starcraft players are (cause of the time), im not saying starcraft players are bad or anything.
Isn't there a pretty big gap in the micro style though? Like microing a battle with 40hp units is a lot different from a battle with 300hp units.
it of course is pretty different... it isnot exactly like wc3 neither its exactly like sc (cause abilities are becoming more important and easier to use (cause of intelligent spellcasting)) but my argument that wc3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players still stands.
For the majority of SC lifetime micro was the dominant style. Macro has only recently (4 years or so) come of dominance. With that said, WC3 players are not experienced with the fast paced micro style that SC1/2 has. Simply put, one mistake and your army can disappear, this does not happen in WC3.
It's going to be a rude awakening to WC3 players. The macro for SC2 also isn't as 'easy' as you claim it is. Even with MBS and auto-mine managing 4-5 bases is going to be on the order of 10^10 more demanding than WC3 macro.
ugh I hate the whole Sonkie vs yellow thing, that bw elitists use that as a benchmark lol.
Sonkie vs Yellow is like the equivilant of like.. LZgamer or some WCG top 10 usa player. Not to disrespect them, but Sonkie isnt even top 5 in USA in terms of skill, the only reason he is the furthest in teams is because everyone else stopped playing/doesnt try much anymore. Seriously, He wasnt even top 15 USA when everyone else played often, I know I am 5-1 sonkie and I was never really good.
Yellow is one of the best zergs of ALL TIME. So unfair. this Moon vs Nada will be MUCH more telling.
On July 18 2009 08:19 Sociopathic wrote: i really think most of you are just really biased...
hell i play both wc3 and sc, but its pretty obvious that starcraft 2 is very micro orientated (cause macro is very easy) and warcraft 3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players.
Im not saying that wc3 players will absolutly dominate, once the sc players adept to sc2 there will be alot of starcraft players on the top, but the actual starcraft playstyle isnot similar to the sc2 playstyle.
What is with this belief that progamers don't have any micro capabilities whatsoever? Has anyone seen Flash's marine control... Anyone?
im not saying the starcraft pros have bad micro... that would be pretty stupid... but look at it like this:
both starcraft and warcraft players are only human being they only have 24 hours a day to do things like sleeping eating training etc. assuming nada isnot a superhero who can do anything:
warcraft players pretty much only train microing (cause macro is hilariously easy in wc3 ( and it will be so in sc2 to) starcraft players have to train a good chunk of macro too, cause it is just a part of sc.
Warcraft players are just abit more trained in micro than starcraft players are (cause of the time), im not saying starcraft players are bad or anything.
Isn't there a pretty big gap in the micro style though? Like microing a battle with 40hp units is a lot different from a battle with 300hp units.
it of course is pretty different... it isnot exactly like wc3 neither its exactly like sc (cause abilities are becoming more important and easier to use (cause of intelligent spellcasting)) but my argument that wc3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players still stands.
For the majority of SC lifetime micro was the dominant style. Macro has only recently (4 years or so) come of dominance. With that said, WC3 players are not experienced with the fast paced micro style that SC1/2 has. Simply put, one mistake and your army can disappear, this does not happen in WC3.
It's going to be a rude awakening to WC3 players. The macro for SC2 also isn't as 'easy' as you claim it is. Even with MBS and auto-mine managing 4-5 bases is going to be on the order of 10^10 more demanding than WC3 macro.
well ill probably put all of my unit producting buildings on one hotkeys ( lets imagine 8) and all my worker producing buildings on 9.
Pressing 8 z( for example 6 zealots) and 9 p (for a probe in EVERY base(which i dont even have to micro cause automineing) every 20 seconds isnot even nearly as hard as sc micro... its a cakewalk
On July 18 2009 08:19 Sociopathic wrote: i really think most of you are just really biased...
hell i play both wc3 and sc, but its pretty obvious that starcraft 2 is very micro orientated (cause macro is very easy) and warcraft 3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players.
Im not saying that wc3 players will absolutly dominate, once the sc players adept to sc2 there will be alot of starcraft players on the top, but the actual starcraft playstyle isnot similar to the sc2 playstyle.
What is with this belief that progamers don't have any micro capabilities whatsoever? Has anyone seen Flash's marine control... Anyone?
im not saying the starcraft pros have bad micro... that would be pretty stupid... but look at it like this:
both starcraft and warcraft players are only human being they only have 24 hours a day to do things like sleeping eating training etc. assuming nada isnot a superhero who can do anything:
warcraft players pretty much only train microing (cause macro is hilariously easy in wc3 ( and it will be so in sc2 to) starcraft players have to train a good chunk of macro too, cause it is just a part of sc.
Warcraft players are just abit more trained in micro than starcraft players are (cause of the time), im not saying starcraft players are bad or anything.
Isn't there a pretty big gap in the micro style though? Like microing a battle with 40hp units is a lot different from a battle with 300hp units.
it of course is pretty different... it isnot exactly like wc3 neither its exactly like sc (cause abilities are becoming more important and easier to use (cause of intelligent spellcasting)) but my argument that wc3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players still stands.
For the majority of SC lifetime micro was the dominant style. Macro has only recently (4 years or so) come of dominance. With that said, WC3 players are not experienced with the fast paced micro style that SC1/2 has. Simply put, one mistake and your army can disappear, this does not happen in WC3.
It's going to be a rude awakening to WC3 players. The macro for SC2 also isn't as 'easy' as you claim it is. Even with MBS and auto-mine managing 4-5 bases is going to be on the order of 10^10 more demanding than WC3 macro.
well ill probably put all of my unit producting buildings on one hotkeys ( lets imagine 8) and all my worker producing buildings on 9.
Pressing 8 z( for example 6 zealots) and 9 p (for a probe in EVERY base(which i dont even have to micro cause automineing) every 20 seconds isnot even nearly as hard as sc micro... its a cakewalk
Actually if you wanted 6 zealots you would press 8zzzzzz that is with Gateways, with Warp-gates you can't do that, you have to manually tell the warp-gate where you want to warp-in to. With Terran you have to deal with add-ons, and zerg has the Queen larvae mechanic that will take up a lot of macro.
Of course macro will be 'easier' than SC, but it will also be as I said 10^10 of what WC3 requires.
WC3 players will not do too well in SC2. Perhaps a few, but the majority are not.
On July 18 2009 09:24 Skyze wrote: ugh I hate the whole Sonkie vs yellow thing, that bw elitists use that as a benchmark lol.
Sonkie vs Yellow is like the equivilant of like.. LZgamer or some WCG top 10 usa player. Not to disrespect them, but Sonkie isnt even top 5 in USA in terms of skill, the only reason he is the furthest in teams is because everyone else stopped playing/doesnt try much anymore. Seriously, He wasnt even top 15 USA when everyone else played often, I know I am 5-1 sonkie and I was never really good.
Yellow is one of the best zergs of ALL TIME. So unfair. this Moon vs Nada will be MUCH more telling.
Well, if you really want to showcase best vs best, I'd like to see:
On July 17 2009 23:16 Skyze wrote: I just find it super ironic that someone named BOXER fan, isnt a fan of Moon (aka the revolutionary-excitement equivilant to Boxer)
I would say Sky is the WC3 equivalent to Boxer. But I guess that is up for debate.
I'm a big Sky fan myself when it comes to WC3.
I think Sky was one of the most unoriginal WC3 players ever, so definitely can't compare him to Boxer. He took some strategies and perfected them, essentially. I don't think he was creative. People have always been tower rushing (and that's like ALL he did for a long time ...) etc.
Anyway, War3 isn't like SC2. I haven't read a single thing from people who've played the game that says so. In fact, most make the effort to point out that they ARE very different, and SC2 feels completely like SC.
That's just so wrong. Sky's pretty been making the hu race what it is for a long time. He developed/popularised the sky push vs hu, ne. Fast expoing with towers. The new MK strat VS orc etc. The list goes on.
On the subject of people talking about how in WC3 you look away for a second and nothing happens etc. This isn't true always. I can give examples like VS UD when you don't keep track of your hero for a second and bam he's been coiled novaed and you've lost. Of course SC is a lot faster paced, but there's still examples in WC3. I think of a lot of what makes pros good in WC3 isn't easy to see to for someone who hasn't played the game that much.
WC3 is more about unit micro and less about macro/mechanics. Though, if you wanted to find the best WC3 player at macro you'd look to Moon. But, SC2 is a different from game from both WC3 and SC so we'll have to see what happens when they play. I would say ultimately it comes down to who adapts best to the game given the relatively short period of time. Saying that, I dunno how much they are gonna practice for it, if at all.
On July 18 2009 08:19 Sociopathic wrote: i really think most of you are just really biased...
hell i play both wc3 and sc, but its pretty obvious that starcraft 2 is very micro orientated (cause macro is very easy) and warcraft 3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players.
Im not saying that wc3 players will absolutly dominate, once the sc players adept to sc2 there will be alot of starcraft players on the top, but the actual starcraft playstyle isnot similar to the sc2 playstyle.
What is with this belief that progamers don't have any micro capabilities whatsoever? Has anyone seen Flash's marine control... Anyone?
im not saying the starcraft pros have bad micro... that would be pretty stupid... but look at it like this:
both starcraft and warcraft players are only human being they only have 24 hours a day to do things like sleeping eating training etc. assuming nada isnot a superhero who can do anything:
warcraft players pretty much only train microing (cause macro is hilariously easy in wc3 ( and it will be so in sc2 to) starcraft players have to train a good chunk of macro too, cause it is just a part of sc.
Warcraft players are just abit more trained in micro than starcraft players are (cause of the time), im not saying starcraft players are bad or anything.
Isn't there a pretty big gap in the micro style though? Like microing a battle with 40hp units is a lot different from a battle with 300hp units.
it of course is pretty different... it isnot exactly like wc3 neither its exactly like sc (cause abilities are becoming more important and easier to use (cause of intelligent spellcasting)) but my argument that wc3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players still stands.
For the majority of SC lifetime micro was the dominant style. Macro has only recently (4 years or so) come of dominance. With that said, WC3 players are not experienced with the fast paced micro style that SC1/2 has. Simply put, one mistake and your army can disappear, this does not happen in WC3.
It's going to be a rude awakening to WC3 players. The macro for SC2 also isn't as 'easy' as you claim it is. Even with MBS and auto-mine managing 4-5 bases is going to be on the order of 10^10 more demanding than WC3 macro.
well ill probably put all of my unit producting buildings on one hotkeys ( lets imagine 8) and all my worker producing buildings on 9.
Pressing 8 z( for example 6 zealots) and 9 p (for a probe in EVERY base(which i dont even have to micro cause automineing) every 20 seconds isnot even nearly as hard as sc micro... its a cakewalk
Actually if you wanted 6 zealots you would press 8zzzzzz that is with Gateways, with Warp-gates you can't do that, you have to manually tell the warp-gate where you want to warp-in to. With Terran you have to deal with add-ons, and zerg has the Queen larvae mechanic that will take up a lot of macro.
Of course macro will be 'easier' than SC, but it will also be as I said 10^10 of what WC3 requires.
WC3 players will not do too well in SC2. Perhaps a few, but the majority are not.
even if what u said is true (i still think that only larvae are using the 1 click per unit mechanic, but i could be mistaken) it would be a difference for wc3 AND sc players... the hardest part in sc micro was that you had to be physically in the production area while fighting (cause all of your hotkeys were used by units) this won`t be the case in sc2(u can rebuild units IN the fight without looking away, even in lategame)
On July 18 2009 08:19 Sociopathic wrote: i really think most of you are just really biased...
hell i play both wc3 and sc, but its pretty obvious that starcraft 2 is very micro orientated (cause macro is very easy) and warcraft 3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players.
Im not saying that wc3 players will absolutly dominate, once the sc players adept to sc2 there will be alot of starcraft players on the top, but the actual starcraft playstyle isnot similar to the sc2 playstyle.
What is with this belief that progamers don't have any micro capabilities whatsoever? Has anyone seen Flash's marine control... Anyone?
im not saying the starcraft pros have bad micro... that would be pretty stupid... but look at it like this:
both starcraft and warcraft players are only human being they only have 24 hours a day to do things like sleeping eating training etc. assuming nada isnot a superhero who can do anything:
warcraft players pretty much only train microing (cause macro is hilariously easy in wc3 ( and it will be so in sc2 to) starcraft players have to train a good chunk of macro too, cause it is just a part of sc.
Warcraft players are just abit more trained in micro than starcraft players are (cause of the time), im not saying starcraft players are bad or anything.
Isn't there a pretty big gap in the micro style though? Like microing a battle with 40hp units is a lot different from a battle with 300hp units.
This. Running for like 2-3 seconds like 1 group of units into enemy's army in WC3 means you will lose 1-2 units. Try making such mistake and running 12 goons into 200/200 sieged T army and getting anything out after 2 seconds.
I'm a WC3 player not a SC player (just like watching sc pro scene though too) and you're completely right that the micro types of the way battles are fought are different from SC compared to WC3, but SC2 is NOT SC. Aside from early game of like zealots vs zerglings or marines or early game combos from SC we probably wont see battles fought the same way because of so many new units. There won't be a TON of micro based similarities in army composition probably.
SC2 is like 60% Broodwar, 40% new, 0% WC3. The units have the same amounts of HP, the gathering is the same, buildings work very much the same. There isn't a single element which is the same as WC3. Maybe that with MBS but that doesn't even matter since WC3 players doesn't use it in the way it will be used in SC2 anyway.
reading through this thread, many of you act like moon has never played SC at all and that he only knows War3... -.- he played SC for 3~4 years before he played war3 (SOURCE VID) and he watches Proleague so he obviously has a decent mastery of SC. All of the specific builds and mechanics won't matter as much with the SC2 match vs Nada because of the new units, new abilities, new hotkeys and a new balance overall. Nada will probably do well in the SC2 match also because of his amazing SC performance.
I think moon will give nada a run for his money and it will be an exciting match! I can't wait!
On July 18 2009 08:19 Sociopathic wrote: i really think most of you are just really biased...
hell i play both wc3 and sc, but its pretty obvious that starcraft 2 is very micro orientated (cause macro is very easy) and warcraft 3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players.
Im not saying that wc3 players will absolutly dominate, once the sc players adept to sc2 there will be alot of starcraft players on the top, but the actual starcraft playstyle isnot similar to the sc2 playstyle.
What is with this belief that progamers don't have any micro capabilities whatsoever? Has anyone seen Flash's marine control... Anyone?
im not saying the starcraft pros have bad micro... that would be pretty stupid... but look at it like this:
both starcraft and warcraft players are only human being they only have 24 hours a day to do things like sleeping eating training etc. assuming nada isnot a superhero who can do anything:
warcraft players pretty much only train microing (cause macro is hilariously easy in wc3 ( and it will be so in sc2 to) starcraft players have to train a good chunk of macro too, cause it is just a part of sc.
Warcraft players are just abit more trained in micro than starcraft players are (cause of the time), im not saying starcraft players are bad or anything.
Isn't there a pretty big gap in the micro style though? Like microing a battle with 40hp units is a lot different from a battle with 300hp units.
it of course is pretty different... it isnot exactly like wc3 neither its exactly like sc (cause abilities are becoming more important and easier to use (cause of intelligent spellcasting)) but my argument that wc3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players still stands.
For the majority of SC lifetime micro was the dominant style. Macro has only recently (4 years or so) come of dominance. With that said, WC3 players are not experienced with the fast paced micro style that SC1/2 has. Simply put, one mistake and your army can disappear, this does not happen in WC3.
It's going to be a rude awakening to WC3 players. The macro for SC2 also isn't as 'easy' as you claim it is. Even with MBS and auto-mine managing 4-5 bases is going to be on the order of 10^10 more demanding than WC3 macro.
well ill probably put all of my unit producting buildings on one hotkeys ( lets imagine 8) and all my worker producing buildings on 9.
Pressing 8 z( for example 6 zealots) and 9 p (for a probe in EVERY base(which i dont even have to micro cause automineing) every 20 seconds isnot even nearly as hard as sc micro... its a cakewalk
Actually if you wanted 6 zealots you would press 8zzzzzz that is with Gateways, with Warp-gates you can't do that, you have to manually tell the warp-gate where you want to warp-in to. With Terran you have to deal with add-ons, and zerg has the Queen larvae mechanic that will take up a lot of macro.
Of course macro will be 'easier' than SC, but it will also be as I said 10^10 of what WC3 requires.
WC3 players will not do too well in SC2. Perhaps a few, but the majority are not.
even if what u said is true (i still think that only larvae are using the 1 click per unit mechanic, but i could be mistaken) it would be a difference for wc3 AND sc players... the hardest part in sc micro was that you had to be physically in the production area while fighting (cause all of your hotkeys were used by units) this won`t be the case in sc2(u can rebuild units IN the fight without looking away, even in lategame)
Let me reiterate. WC3 has nothing in common with SC. SC2 has 90% in common with SC. The gameplay is extremely similar pacewise and tech wise. The transition for SC players will be very easy and fluid. The transition for WC3 players is going to be very painful.
To be quite honest, I don't see any WC3 pro even making top 15 in SC2 pro-gaming scene if most of the SC pros decide to come over.
For example, I see these players doing better than Moon the defacto best WC3 player:
Boxer Savior JD Bisu Flash Stork NaDa Leta JulyZerg Nal_Ra (If he decides to come back for SC2) Berserker/Iris Iloveoov (If he decides to come back for SC2) BaBy (This is probably controversial, I think he is going to do very well in SC2) EffOrt Kal
In a Bo5 every single one of these players will wipe the floor with Moon/Grubby/Lyn in SC2. I will bookmark this thread and bring this back up once SC2 pro scene starts to form and take shape. I will also make a bold prediction: Boxer 1st SC2 Bonjwa! Heard it here first
On July 18 2009 08:19 Sociopathic wrote: i really think most of you are just really biased...
hell i play both wc3 and sc, but its pretty obvious that starcraft 2 is very micro orientated (cause macro is very easy) and warcraft 3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players.
Im not saying that wc3 players will absolutly dominate, once the sc players adept to sc2 there will be alot of starcraft players on the top, but the actual starcraft playstyle isnot similar to the sc2 playstyle.
What is with this belief that progamers don't have any micro capabilities whatsoever? Has anyone seen Flash's marine control... Anyone?
im not saying the starcraft pros have bad micro... that would be pretty stupid... but look at it like this:
both starcraft and warcraft players are only human being they only have 24 hours a day to do things like sleeping eating training etc. assuming nada isnot a superhero who can do anything:
warcraft players pretty much only train microing (cause macro is hilariously easy in wc3 ( and it will be so in sc2 to) starcraft players have to train a good chunk of macro too, cause it is just a part of sc.
Warcraft players are just abit more trained in micro than starcraft players are (cause of the time), im not saying starcraft players are bad or anything.
Isn't there a pretty big gap in the micro style though? Like microing a battle with 40hp units is a lot different from a battle with 300hp units.
This. Running for like 2-3 seconds like 1 group of units into enemy's army in WC3 means you will lose 1-2 units. Try making such mistake and running 12 goons into 200/200 sieged T army and getting anything out after 2 seconds.
I'm a WC3 player not a SC player (just like watching sc pro scene though too) and you're completely right that the micro types of the way battles are fought are different from SC compared to WC3, but SC2 is NOT SC. Aside from early game of like zealots vs zerglings or marines or early game combos from SC we probably wont see battles fought the same way because of so many new units. There won't be a TON of micro based similarities in army composition probably.
SC2 is like 60% Broodwar, 40% new, 0% WC3. The units have the same amounts of HP, the gathering is the same, buildings work very much the same. There isn't a single element which is the same as WC3. Maybe that with MBS but that doesn't even matter since WC3 players doesn't use it in the way it will be used in SC2 anyway.
in terms of units maybe... but were talking about other things here
On July 18 2009 08:19 Sociopathic wrote: i really think most of you are just really biased...
hell i play both wc3 and sc, but its pretty obvious that starcraft 2 is very micro orientated (cause macro is very easy) and warcraft 3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players.
Im not saying that wc3 players will absolutly dominate, once the sc players adept to sc2 there will be alot of starcraft players on the top, but the actual starcraft playstyle isnot similar to the sc2 playstyle.
What is with this belief that progamers don't have any micro capabilities whatsoever? Has anyone seen Flash's marine control... Anyone?
im not saying the starcraft pros have bad micro... that would be pretty stupid... but look at it like this:
both starcraft and warcraft players are only human being they only have 24 hours a day to do things like sleeping eating training etc. assuming nada isnot a superhero who can do anything:
warcraft players pretty much only train microing (cause macro is hilariously easy in wc3 ( and it will be so in sc2 to) starcraft players have to train a good chunk of macro too, cause it is just a part of sc.
Warcraft players are just abit more trained in micro than starcraft players are (cause of the time), im not saying starcraft players are bad or anything.
Isn't there a pretty big gap in the micro style though? Like microing a battle with 40hp units is a lot different from a battle with 300hp units.
it of course is pretty different... it isnot exactly like wc3 neither its exactly like sc (cause abilities are becoming more important and easier to use (cause of intelligent spellcasting)) but my argument that wc3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players still stands.
For the majority of SC lifetime micro was the dominant style. Macro has only recently (4 years or so) come of dominance. With that said, WC3 players are not experienced with the fast paced micro style that SC1/2 has. Simply put, one mistake and your army can disappear, this does not happen in WC3.
It's going to be a rude awakening to WC3 players. The macro for SC2 also isn't as 'easy' as you claim it is. Even with MBS and auto-mine managing 4-5 bases is going to be on the order of 10^10 more demanding than WC3 macro.
well ill probably put all of my unit producting buildings on one hotkeys ( lets imagine 8) and all my worker producing buildings on 9.
Pressing 8 z( for example 6 zealots) and 9 p (for a probe in EVERY base(which i dont even have to micro cause automineing) every 20 seconds isnot even nearly as hard as sc micro... its a cakewalk
Actually if you wanted 6 zealots you would press 8zzzzzz that is with Gateways, with Warp-gates you can't do that, you have to manually tell the warp-gate where you want to warp-in to. With Terran you have to deal with add-ons, and zerg has the Queen larvae mechanic that will take up a lot of macro.
Of course macro will be 'easier' than SC, but it will also be as I said 10^10 of what WC3 requires.
WC3 players will not do too well in SC2. Perhaps a few, but the majority are not.
even if what u said is true (i still think that only larvae are using the 1 click per unit mechanic, but i could be mistaken) it would be a difference for wc3 AND sc players... the hardest part in sc micro was that you had to be physically in the production area while fighting (cause all of your hotkeys were used by units) this won`t be the case in sc2(u can rebuild units IN the fight without looking away, even in lategame)
Let me reiterate. WC3 has nothing in common with SC. SC2 has 90% in common with SC. The gameplay is extremely similar pacewise and tech wise. The transition for SC players will be very easy and fluid. The transition for WC3 players is going to be very painful.
To be quite honest, I don't see any WC3 pro even making top 15 in SC2 pro-gaming scene if most of the SC pros decide to come over.
For example, I see these players doing better than Moon the defacto best WC3 player:
Boxer Savior JD Bisu Flash Stork NaDa Leta JulyZerg Nal_Ra (If he decides to come back for SC2) Berserker/Iris Iloveoov (If he decides to come back for SC2) BaBy (This is probably controversial, I think he is going to do very well in SC2) EffOrt Kal
In a Bo5 every single one of these players will wipe the floor with Moon/Grubby/Lyn in SC2. I will bookmark this thread and bring this back up once SC2 pro scene starts to form and take shape. I will also make a bold prediction: Boxer 1st SC2 Bonjwa! Heard it here first
dude u just dont seem to get it? the whole reason starcraft players are good at starcraft is the heavy impact of macro (of course there are a few exceptions but they are few and far between) in sc2 macro will be A FUCKING CAKEWALK.
edit: moon isn`t the best wc3 players atm... he may be the one who won the most money, but he isn`t at his prime anymore
On July 18 2009 08:31 Comeh wrote: [quote] What is with this belief that progamers don't have any micro capabilities whatsoever? Has anyone seen Flash's marine control... Anyone?
im not saying the starcraft pros have bad micro... that would be pretty stupid... but look at it like this:
both starcraft and warcraft players are only human being they only have 24 hours a day to do things like sleeping eating training etc. assuming nada isnot a superhero who can do anything:
warcraft players pretty much only train microing (cause macro is hilariously easy in wc3 ( and it will be so in sc2 to) starcraft players have to train a good chunk of macro too, cause it is just a part of sc.
Warcraft players are just abit more trained in micro than starcraft players are (cause of the time), im not saying starcraft players are bad or anything.
Isn't there a pretty big gap in the micro style though? Like microing a battle with 40hp units is a lot different from a battle with 300hp units.
it of course is pretty different... it isnot exactly like wc3 neither its exactly like sc (cause abilities are becoming more important and easier to use (cause of intelligent spellcasting)) but my argument that wc3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players still stands.
For the majority of SC lifetime micro was the dominant style. Macro has only recently (4 years or so) come of dominance. With that said, WC3 players are not experienced with the fast paced micro style that SC1/2 has. Simply put, one mistake and your army can disappear, this does not happen in WC3.
It's going to be a rude awakening to WC3 players. The macro for SC2 also isn't as 'easy' as you claim it is. Even with MBS and auto-mine managing 4-5 bases is going to be on the order of 10^10 more demanding than WC3 macro.
well ill probably put all of my unit producting buildings on one hotkeys ( lets imagine 8) and all my worker producing buildings on 9.
Pressing 8 z( for example 6 zealots) and 9 p (for a probe in EVERY base(which i dont even have to micro cause automineing) every 20 seconds isnot even nearly as hard as sc micro... its a cakewalk
Actually if you wanted 6 zealots you would press 8zzzzzz that is with Gateways, with Warp-gates you can't do that, you have to manually tell the warp-gate where you want to warp-in to. With Terran you have to deal with add-ons, and zerg has the Queen larvae mechanic that will take up a lot of macro.
Of course macro will be 'easier' than SC, but it will also be as I said 10^10 of what WC3 requires.
WC3 players will not do too well in SC2. Perhaps a few, but the majority are not.
even if what u said is true (i still think that only larvae are using the 1 click per unit mechanic, but i could be mistaken) it would be a difference for wc3 AND sc players... the hardest part in sc micro was that you had to be physically in the production area while fighting (cause all of your hotkeys were used by units) this won`t be the case in sc2(u can rebuild units IN the fight without looking away, even in lategame)
Let me reiterate. WC3 has nothing in common with SC. SC2 has 90% in common with SC. The gameplay is extremely similar pacewise and tech wise. The transition for SC players will be very easy and fluid. The transition for WC3 players is going to be very painful.
To be quite honest, I don't see any WC3 pro even making top 15 in SC2 pro-gaming scene if most of the SC pros decide to come over.
For example, I see these players doing better than Moon the defacto best WC3 player:
Boxer Savior JD Bisu Flash Stork NaDa Leta JulyZerg Nal_Ra (If he decides to come back for SC2) Berserker/Iris Iloveoov (If he decides to come back for SC2) BaBy (This is probably controversial, I think he is going to do very well in SC2) EffOrt Kal
In a Bo5 every single one of these players will wipe the floor with Moon/Grubby/Lyn in SC2. I will bookmark this thread and bring this back up once SC2 pro scene starts to form and take shape. I will also make a bold prediction: Boxer 1st SC2 Bonjwa! Heard it here first
dude u just dont seem to get it? the whole reason starcraft players are good at starcraft is the heavy impact of macro (of course there are a few exceptions but they are few and far between) in sc2 macro will be A FUCKING CAKEWALK.
edit: moon isn`t the best wc3 players atm... he may be the one who won the most money, but he isn`t at his prime anymore
Wrong. Have you even watched pro SC that much? Have you seen Jaedongs Muta Micro? Have you seen Flashs MnM micro? Have you seen Bisu's ridiculous multi-tasking play? Have you seen SaviOrs ridiculous multi-tasking like Bisu? Every single one of those 15 players have better micro than Moon.
im not saying the starcraft pros have bad micro... that would be pretty stupid... but look at it like this:
both starcraft and warcraft players are only human being they only have 24 hours a day to do things like sleeping eating training etc. assuming nada isnot a superhero who can do anything:
warcraft players pretty much only train microing (cause macro is hilariously easy in wc3 ( and it will be so in sc2 to) starcraft players have to train a good chunk of macro too, cause it is just a part of sc.
Warcraft players are just abit more trained in micro than starcraft players are (cause of the time), im not saying starcraft players are bad or anything.
Isn't there a pretty big gap in the micro style though? Like microing a battle with 40hp units is a lot different from a battle with 300hp units.
it of course is pretty different... it isnot exactly like wc3 neither its exactly like sc (cause abilities are becoming more important and easier to use (cause of intelligent spellcasting)) but my argument that wc3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players still stands.
For the majority of SC lifetime micro was the dominant style. Macro has only recently (4 years or so) come of dominance. With that said, WC3 players are not experienced with the fast paced micro style that SC1/2 has. Simply put, one mistake and your army can disappear, this does not happen in WC3.
It's going to be a rude awakening to WC3 players. The macro for SC2 also isn't as 'easy' as you claim it is. Even with MBS and auto-mine managing 4-5 bases is going to be on the order of 10^10 more demanding than WC3 macro.
well ill probably put all of my unit producting buildings on one hotkeys ( lets imagine 8) and all my worker producing buildings on 9.
Pressing 8 z( for example 6 zealots) and 9 p (for a probe in EVERY base(which i dont even have to micro cause automineing) every 20 seconds isnot even nearly as hard as sc micro... its a cakewalk
Actually if you wanted 6 zealots you would press 8zzzzzz that is with Gateways, with Warp-gates you can't do that, you have to manually tell the warp-gate where you want to warp-in to. With Terran you have to deal with add-ons, and zerg has the Queen larvae mechanic that will take up a lot of macro.
Of course macro will be 'easier' than SC, but it will also be as I said 10^10 of what WC3 requires.
WC3 players will not do too well in SC2. Perhaps a few, but the majority are not.
even if what u said is true (i still think that only larvae are using the 1 click per unit mechanic, but i could be mistaken) it would be a difference for wc3 AND sc players... the hardest part in sc micro was that you had to be physically in the production area while fighting (cause all of your hotkeys were used by units) this won`t be the case in sc2(u can rebuild units IN the fight without looking away, even in lategame)
Let me reiterate. WC3 has nothing in common with SC. SC2 has 90% in common with SC. The gameplay is extremely similar pacewise and tech wise. The transition for SC players will be very easy and fluid. The transition for WC3 players is going to be very painful.
To be quite honest, I don't see any WC3 pro even making top 15 in SC2 pro-gaming scene if most of the SC pros decide to come over.
For example, I see these players doing better than Moon the defacto best WC3 player:
Boxer Savior JD Bisu Flash Stork NaDa Leta JulyZerg Nal_Ra (If he decides to come back for SC2) Berserker/Iris Iloveoov (If he decides to come back for SC2) BaBy (This is probably controversial, I think he is going to do very well in SC2) EffOrt Kal
In a Bo5 every single one of these players will wipe the floor with Moon/Grubby/Lyn in SC2. I will bookmark this thread and bring this back up once SC2 pro scene starts to form and take shape. I will also make a bold prediction: Boxer 1st SC2 Bonjwa! Heard it here first
dude u just dont seem to get it? the whole reason starcraft players are good at starcraft is the heavy impact of macro (of course there are a few exceptions but they are few and far between) in sc2 macro will be A FUCKING CAKEWALK.
edit: moon isn`t the best wc3 players atm... he may be the one who won the most money, but he isn`t at his prime anymore
Wrong. Have you even watched pro SC that much? Have you seen Jaedongs Muta Micro? Have you seen Flashs MnM micro? Have you seen Bisu's ridiculous multi-tasking play? Have you seen SaviOrs ridiculous multi-tasking like Bisu? Every single one of those 15 players have better micro than Moon.
WC3 micro is NOT comparable to SC at all.
1) heavy inpact of macro =/= no micro 2)neither sc or wc3 is comparable to sc2... its a fucking new game 3)try again sir u failed
On July 18 2009 08:43 Tsagacity wrote: [quote] Isn't there a pretty big gap in the micro style though? Like microing a battle with 40hp units is a lot different from a battle with 300hp units.
it of course is pretty different... it isnot exactly like wc3 neither its exactly like sc (cause abilities are becoming more important and easier to use (cause of intelligent spellcasting)) but my argument that wc3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players still stands.
For the majority of SC lifetime micro was the dominant style. Macro has only recently (4 years or so) come of dominance. With that said, WC3 players are not experienced with the fast paced micro style that SC1/2 has. Simply put, one mistake and your army can disappear, this does not happen in WC3.
It's going to be a rude awakening to WC3 players. The macro for SC2 also isn't as 'easy' as you claim it is. Even with MBS and auto-mine managing 4-5 bases is going to be on the order of 10^10 more demanding than WC3 macro.
well ill probably put all of my unit producting buildings on one hotkeys ( lets imagine 8) and all my worker producing buildings on 9.
Pressing 8 z( for example 6 zealots) and 9 p (for a probe in EVERY base(which i dont even have to micro cause automineing) every 20 seconds isnot even nearly as hard as sc micro... its a cakewalk
Actually if you wanted 6 zealots you would press 8zzzzzz that is with Gateways, with Warp-gates you can't do that, you have to manually tell the warp-gate where you want to warp-in to. With Terran you have to deal with add-ons, and zerg has the Queen larvae mechanic that will take up a lot of macro.
Of course macro will be 'easier' than SC, but it will also be as I said 10^10 of what WC3 requires.
WC3 players will not do too well in SC2. Perhaps a few, but the majority are not.
even if what u said is true (i still think that only larvae are using the 1 click per unit mechanic, but i could be mistaken) it would be a difference for wc3 AND sc players... the hardest part in sc micro was that you had to be physically in the production area while fighting (cause all of your hotkeys were used by units) this won`t be the case in sc2(u can rebuild units IN the fight without looking away, even in lategame)
Let me reiterate. WC3 has nothing in common with SC. SC2 has 90% in common with SC. The gameplay is extremely similar pacewise and tech wise. The transition for SC players will be very easy and fluid. The transition for WC3 players is going to be very painful.
To be quite honest, I don't see any WC3 pro even making top 15 in SC2 pro-gaming scene if most of the SC pros decide to come over.
For example, I see these players doing better than Moon the defacto best WC3 player:
Boxer Savior JD Bisu Flash Stork NaDa Leta JulyZerg Nal_Ra (If he decides to come back for SC2) Berserker/Iris Iloveoov (If he decides to come back for SC2) BaBy (This is probably controversial, I think he is going to do very well in SC2) EffOrt Kal
In a Bo5 every single one of these players will wipe the floor with Moon/Grubby/Lyn in SC2. I will bookmark this thread and bring this back up once SC2 pro scene starts to form and take shape. I will also make a bold prediction: Boxer 1st SC2 Bonjwa! Heard it here first
dude u just dont seem to get it? the whole reason starcraft players are good at starcraft is the heavy impact of macro (of course there are a few exceptions but they are few and far between) in sc2 macro will be A FUCKING CAKEWALK.
edit: moon isn`t the best wc3 players atm... he may be the one who won the most money, but he isn`t at his prime anymore
Wrong. Have you even watched pro SC that much? Have you seen Jaedongs Muta Micro? Have you seen Flashs MnM micro? Have you seen Bisu's ridiculous multi-tasking play? Have you seen SaviOrs ridiculous multi-tasking like Bisu? Every single one of those 15 players have better micro than Moon.
WC3 micro is NOT comparable to SC at all.
1) heavy inpact of macro =/= no micro 2)neither sc or wc3 is comparable to sc2... its a fucking new game 3)try again sir u failed
I'm done arguing with you, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. So, watch this since words don't get through to you.
it of course is pretty different... it isnot exactly like wc3 neither its exactly like sc (cause abilities are becoming more important and easier to use (cause of intelligent spellcasting)) but my argument that wc3 players are more experienced with micro than sc players still stands.
For the majority of SC lifetime micro was the dominant style. Macro has only recently (4 years or so) come of dominance. With that said, WC3 players are not experienced with the fast paced micro style that SC1/2 has. Simply put, one mistake and your army can disappear, this does not happen in WC3.
It's going to be a rude awakening to WC3 players. The macro for SC2 also isn't as 'easy' as you claim it is. Even with MBS and auto-mine managing 4-5 bases is going to be on the order of 10^10 more demanding than WC3 macro.
well ill probably put all of my unit producting buildings on one hotkeys ( lets imagine 8) and all my worker producing buildings on 9.
Pressing 8 z( for example 6 zealots) and 9 p (for a probe in EVERY base(which i dont even have to micro cause automineing) every 20 seconds isnot even nearly as hard as sc micro... its a cakewalk
Actually if you wanted 6 zealots you would press 8zzzzzz that is with Gateways, with Warp-gates you can't do that, you have to manually tell the warp-gate where you want to warp-in to. With Terran you have to deal with add-ons, and zerg has the Queen larvae mechanic that will take up a lot of macro.
Of course macro will be 'easier' than SC, but it will also be as I said 10^10 of what WC3 requires.
WC3 players will not do too well in SC2. Perhaps a few, but the majority are not.
even if what u said is true (i still think that only larvae are using the 1 click per unit mechanic, but i could be mistaken) it would be a difference for wc3 AND sc players... the hardest part in sc micro was that you had to be physically in the production area while fighting (cause all of your hotkeys were used by units) this won`t be the case in sc2(u can rebuild units IN the fight without looking away, even in lategame)
Let me reiterate. WC3 has nothing in common with SC. SC2 has 90% in common with SC. The gameplay is extremely similar pacewise and tech wise. The transition for SC players will be very easy and fluid. The transition for WC3 players is going to be very painful.
To be quite honest, I don't see any WC3 pro even making top 15 in SC2 pro-gaming scene if most of the SC pros decide to come over.
For example, I see these players doing better than Moon the defacto best WC3 player:
Boxer Savior JD Bisu Flash Stork NaDa Leta JulyZerg Nal_Ra (If he decides to come back for SC2) Berserker/Iris Iloveoov (If he decides to come back for SC2) BaBy (This is probably controversial, I think he is going to do very well in SC2) EffOrt Kal
In a Bo5 every single one of these players will wipe the floor with Moon/Grubby/Lyn in SC2. I will bookmark this thread and bring this back up once SC2 pro scene starts to form and take shape. I will also make a bold prediction: Boxer 1st SC2 Bonjwa! Heard it here first
dude u just dont seem to get it? the whole reason starcraft players are good at starcraft is the heavy impact of macro (of course there are a few exceptions but they are few and far between) in sc2 macro will be A FUCKING CAKEWALK.
edit: moon isn`t the best wc3 players atm... he may be the one who won the most money, but he isn`t at his prime anymore
Wrong. Have you even watched pro SC that much? Have you seen Jaedongs Muta Micro? Have you seen Flashs MnM micro? Have you seen Bisu's ridiculous multi-tasking play? Have you seen SaviOrs ridiculous multi-tasking like Bisu? Every single one of those 15 players have better micro than Moon.
WC3 micro is NOT comparable to SC at all.
1) heavy inpact of macro =/= no micro 2)neither sc or wc3 is comparable to sc2... its a fucking new game 3)try again sir u failed
I'm done arguing with you, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. So, watch this since words don't get through to you.
EPT
