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On November 19 2008 03:22 Zelniq wrote:even selecting 1 hatchery and building 3 units at once is slower now
though I guess the benefit now is you can micromanage what you want each larvae to be
That's kinda the problem, since now it doesn't matter how many production buildings you have, as it only scales button presses, not multitasking ability. It seems that Blizzard is really missing the point, between this, the gas mechanic, and I sure there are other mechanics that exist that seem to exist to increase button presses. It's like Blizzard heard about APM and competitive players in the same sentence and thought that competitive players (i.e. us) only care about having to click a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard formulated their opinions on what serious players wanted based on what B.Net posters said to slag us, since the attempt at a competitive aspect in SC2 seems to be based on a negative stereotype of competitive play.
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On November 19 2008 03:22 Zelniq wrote:
compare that with the 'improvement' and having to hit 12 hotkeys to build 12 units, waaaay slower.
While we'll see when it's released, it's probably one key per hatchery, not per larva. This would definately be something to ask on the Battle.net forums, though.
One hotkey per gateway/barracks/factory/robotics facility, etc. definately helps, also. I seem to make a mixed group of Zealots and Dragoons (depending on how many of what I just lost due to poor micro), instead of just Zealots and just Dragoons.
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On November 18 2008 08:08 arb wrote:
How useful Archon have in SC2?
i've heard they lost their splash damage and they lost Feedback ability for longtime ago
even the Archon have thier splash damage but what improvement Archon have from SC1 ?
against Terran , Archon easily defeated by ghost
against Zerg , Does Archon still have splash damage ?
now the protoss have Immortal with High HP equip with Harden Shield and have longer attack range
i think Archon need buff :/
(Pondpond, USWest)
Does no one spellcheck or try to make shit coherent?
Haha i was asking myself the same question.....
wow
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United States3824 Posts
Lol "can you tell me how to play the gas mechanic so I don't even have to think about it at all?"
Lamerz
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On November 18 2008 10:49 Alizee- wrote:
!! !!
Can someone please explain to me what phoenixes currently do? I thought they could only attack other air units...so if they don't have overload are they just a scout that can't attack ground? o.O
Phoenixes also have the anti gravity which disables and makes nearby units airborne which allows them to attack ground effectively.
Geez, if people are not up to date with the changes why are they even trying to discuss the units?
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Multiple button presses are really not a good idea. It's not a compromise between MBS and no-MBS. It falls in the category of things that are just awkward.
Zerg SHOULD be able to select and build 3 at a time. Similarly, selecting the 6 rax and pressing M should build 6 marines. It doesn't help the attention issue, and it's just stupid to press M 6 times when you clearly already have MBS.
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On November 19 2008 06:36 naventus wrote:
Similarly, selecting the 6 rax and pressing M should build 6 marines. It doesn't help the attention issue, and it's just stupid to press M 6 times when you clearly already have MBS.
What if someone wanted to make a mixed group of units?
At the moment in SC1, selecting 5 hotkeyed gateways to make zealots is "1z2z3z4z5z." In SC2, with it's current MBS, it's "1zzzzz." Making a mixed group of zealots and dragoons would be something "1zddzd". If you wanted to make a mixed group of units, you're back to SC1's problems.
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On November 19 2008 03:22 Zelniq wrote:oh wow now zerg macroing has become even harder than before haha in sc it's so nice to build 4 of your hatcheries together and just hit F2, drag-select (or Ctrl-click / doubleclick) larvae and then hit 1 key to build 12 units at once.. compare that with the 'improvement' and having to hit 12 hotkeys to build 12 units, waaaay slower. now there's no longer a benefit in building my hatcheries near each other, which I thought was a nice balance between choosing to build hatches in more favorable spots for say expos, or building them close for better macro.  even selecting 1 hatchery and building 3 units at once is slower now though I guess the benefit now is you can micromanage what you want each larvae to be
dude, you're totally wrong...when you got issues with latency and lag and whatever then selecting then building kinda sucks...especially considering you may have hatcheries all over the place, which you should...it's more strategical that way...then it's good to be able to rally point all of them all at once and then as for building the units, you just press the button many times.
i mean, really, didn't any of you play any of those games where you have to push a button really fast? like the final fantasy games for example. ff8 boosting gf summons, or ff7 arm wrestling...ff9 running, i think there are probably plenty of other games like that too. there's no reason why it should be such a big deal in starcraft.
and anyway...did any of you guys play master of orion? great, fun, fantastic game.
but if there was one thing that was to be complained about, it was the hassle of having to manage each solar system every turn. well, that's kinda the way it is with starcraft, managing all the production buildings...you see when people play a strategy game they want to focus on the strategy...this isn't sim city. in fact master of orion 2 and 3 were failures because they did not really improve on that point. in fact, master of orion 3 was ridiculously hard in that respect. starcraft is a bit hard to manage compared to starcraft 2. so blizzard is taking steps in the right direction, as opposed to the makers of the master of orion series.
so to make my point clear, mbs is multiple building selection, not simultaneous larva hatching, that would be SLH, well and it's not zerg hatching either, like SZH. and with multiple building selection you can have all buildings selected now so production is alot easier since you don't have to scroll around all over the map to build things as much. that was one thing that always annoyed zerg players...never had enough hotkeys for crying out loud. that's why i ended up like almost never using hotkeys as zerg for the most part...wasn't much point in it since i kept running out of hotkeys.
i just wonder if they're going to keep the sounds the same or not like they were in starcraft. if so, then the strange sounds overlapping thing will happen more often with zerg...and that'll be fun...
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Mutalisk harasses, Reaver/High Templar/Dark Templar drops, etc.
Those things take both time and micro. Reapers don't take time, and Colossii don't take micro.
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Sweden33723 Posts
On November 19 2008 08:07 dcttr66 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2008 03:22 Zelniq wrote:oh wow now zerg macroing has become even harder than before haha in sc it's so nice to build 4 of your hatcheries together and just hit F2, drag-select (or Ctrl-click / doubleclick) larvae and then hit 1 key to build 12 units at once.. compare that with the 'improvement' and having to hit 12 hotkeys to build 12 units, waaaay slower. now there's no longer a benefit in building my hatcheries near each other, which I thought was a nice balance between choosing to build hatches in more favorable spots for say expos, or building them close for better macro. even selecting 1 hatchery and building 3 units at once is slower now though I guess the benefit now is you can micromanage what you want each larvae to be dude, you're totally wrong...when you got issues with latency and lag and whatever then selecting then building kinda sucks...especially considering you may have hatcheries all over the place, which you should...it's more strategical that way...then it's good to be able to rally point all of them all at once and then as for building the units, you just press the button many times. i mean, really, didn't any of you play any of those games where you have to push a button really fast? like the final fantasy games for example. ff8 boosting gf summons, or ff7 arm wrestling...ff9 running, i think there are probably plenty of other games like that too. there's no reason why it should be such a big deal in starcraft. and anyway...did any of you guys play master of orion? great, fun, fantastic game. but if there was one thing that was to be complained about, it was the hassle of having to manage each solar system every turn. well, that's kinda the way it is with starcraft, managing all the production buildings...you see when people play a strategy game they want to focus on the strategy...this isn't sim city. in fact master of orion 2 and 3 were failures because they did not really improve on that point. in fact, master of orion 3 was ridiculously hard in that respect. starcraft is a bit hard to manage compared to starcraft 2. so blizzard is taking steps in the right direction, as opposed to the makers of the master of orion series. so to make my point clear, mbs is multiple building selection, not simultaneous larva hatching, that would be SLH, well and it's not zerg hatching either, like SZH. and with multiple building selection you can have all buildings selected now so production is alot easier since you don't have to scroll around all over the map to build things as much. that was one thing that always annoyed zerg players...never had enough hotkeys for crying out loud. that's why i ended up like almost never using hotkeys as zerg for the most part...wasn't much point in it since i kept running out of hotkeys. i just wonder if they're going to keep the sounds the same or not like they were in starcraft. if so, then the strange sounds overlapping thing will happen more often with zerg...and that'll be fun...
Uhm, he's saying in SC1 Zerg had it EASIER since you could just manually select 12 larvaes and order all of them to morph (ie if you have 4 hatcheries next to eachother, you just ctrl+click one larvae and all will be selected, and you hit Z for lings).
Now you have to go 4zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
It's a trade-off.
Btw, MoO is a turn-based 4x Strategy game of epic scale. SC is a Real Time Strategy game of epic speed. You shouldn't compare the two really.
On November 20 2008 02:49 garmule2 wrote:Those things take both time and micro. Reapers don't take time, and Colossii don't take micro.
Reapers seem to take about as much time as vultures (they seem like slightly more mobile and slightly less strong vultures tbh, not a complaint either).
Colossii micro seems like it'd be something like guardian 'micro'? IE keeping them out of range while attacking from a cliff (since the colossus has a range upgrade that makes it quite far reaching).
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On November 20 2008 02:59 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2008 02:49 garmule2 wrote:Mutalisk harasses, Reaver/High Templar/Dark Templar drops, etc. Those things take both time and micro. Reapers don't take time, and Colossii don't take micro. Reapers seem to take about as much time as vultures (they seem like slightly more mobile and slightly less strong vultures tbh, not a complaint either).
Not really, considering that they require a factory to get a merc haven and then you also need a tech lab addon on the rax you need twice the buildtime and twice the gas to be able to build reapers compared to vultures if we assume that we start from rax tech.
Its still earlier than most other cliff climbing harass options but reapers lack the punch of the other options so its quite fair.
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Sweden33723 Posts
By time I meant time to manage, I thought that was what he was talking about?
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On November 20 2008 03:33 FrozenArbiter wrote:
By time I meant time to manage, I thought that was what he was talking about?
But ain't that the same thing as requiring micro though?
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From what I read, I take it as ONLY if you have multiple hatches under a single hotkey will you have to press z for each larvae. Therefore, if you have only one hatchery for a single hotkey, you can press s,z once and still make 3 lings as per SC1. Also, ctrl/double clicking larvae would not be the same as selecting multiple hatcheries so you can do that and still simultaneously make multiple lings with one s,z command.
So, in essence, if you hotkey hatches as in SC1 (with 1 hatch per hotkey number), then it will be exactly the same as SC1 and take the exact same amount of time and difficulty. If you put multiple hatches on a single hotkey, then it changes as a button press per larvae as opposed to a button press per hatch.
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On November 20 2008 04:48 beefhamburger wrote:
From what I read, I take it as ONLY if you have multiple hatches under a single hotkey will you have to press z for each larvae. Therefore, if you have only one hatchery for a single hotkey, you can press s,z once and still make 3 lings as per SC1. Also, ctrl/double clicking larvae would not be the same as selecting multiple hatcheries so you can do that and still simultaneously make multiple lings with one s,z command.
So, in essence, if you hotkey hatches as in SC1 (with 1 hatch per hotkey number), then it will be exactly the same as SC1 and take the exact same amount of time and difficulty. If you put multiple hatches on a single hotkey, then it changes as a button press per larvae as opposed to a button press per hatch.
If this is true, then Blizzard may have managed to win back some hope. Still a ways to go, but some more hope nonetheless.
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i really dont like the new gas mechanic, and the new zerg mbs crap. hitting Z 9x? if i had 10 hatches, thats 30 Zs. in late game, maxed, and suddenly my army was going to be blown to bits in milliseconds, i would want to keep microing my units instead of trying to make units. i want to win games, not spam a button to try and make units.
o heres a new question for the next batch if it hasnt been asked already:
will there be more expansions after the 2nd expansion?
cuz i want the zerg to have the last word.
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On November 19 2008 03:56 Shadowfury333 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2008 03:22 Zelniq wrote:even selecting 1 hatchery and building 3 units at once is slower now
though I guess the benefit now is you can micromanage what you want each larvae to be That's kinda the problem, since now it doesn't matter how many production buildings you have, as it only scales button presses, not multitasking ability. It seems that Blizzard is really missing the point, between this, the gas mechanic, and I sure there are other mechanics that exist that seem to exist to increase button presses. It's like Blizzard heard about APM and competitive players in the same sentence and thought that competitive players (i.e. us) only care about having to click a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard formulated their opinions on what serious players wanted based on what B.Net posters said to slag us, since the attempt at a competitive aspect in SC2 seems to be based on a negative stereotype of competitive play.
alot of ppl are missing the point. we dont want to click alot, or have to pay attention to every lil bit of detail. we just want to play the game, but make it competitive enough so that this guy cant do this without having to do this, aka multitask without high apm.
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What I got from this:
MBS is so fucked up that its easier for Protoss and Terran and harder for Zerg to macro while Zerg need it the least to begin with.
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Korea (South)3086 Posts
Oh dear dear Blizzard... When will you ever learn about MBS...
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EPT
